My Chevelle build and spot to Rant

I think we look at things in a similar way,
"I am a firm believer of waiting and getting what I want for parts over rushing. It eliminates that I wish I had just did that from the picture."
and thats why its taken me YEARS on a very limited budget to acquire most of the parts I need for my goal of building a kick butt bbc power c4 corvette,
I think theres not much point in building a car that youll own, and spend all that time and money and look back and say to yourself...DAMN, THIS SUCKS!
I should have waited and built it with parts x or y, like I planned too, rather than taking the faster and cheaper route, just to get something built I'm not happy with, and not driving what I really wanted too own!
 
There are places money can be saved and places it can't be some parts really make the combo what it should be. There are reasons why guys fall short on their goals of what an engine should be putting out. It usually has to do with a variation or compromise in the proven formula.
 
There are places money can be saved and places it can't be some parts really make the combo what it should be. There are reasons why guys fall short on their goals of what an engine should be putting out. It usually has to do with a variation or compromise in the proven formula.

yeah! thats one extremely common reason why guys fail to build a decent engine,
I can,t begin to list the number of times I've had some guy ask me to build him an engine ,that will make 500,or 600 hp, for his muscle car, and when I explain whats involved in time and money to do it correctly,
and propose a very detailed list of the required machine work and draw up a parts list,of a well tested , known combo, I've built, before
without any doubt the first thing out of their mouths is the fact they want to substitute 1/2 of the parts for less expensive components,
and skip 3/4's of the machine work and then use a few parts they already own
they invariably are convinced that cheaper similar parts will work out fine and cost less!

When I explain that we can follow their version but it won,t make anywhere near the same power,
they generally can,t or won,t believe me.... at first!

I generally say, look this is a bit like backing a cake, if the recipe, calls for 2 cups of cane sugar and that sugar costs $4, and you go to the local store and find you can buy SALT that looks identical, for 79 cents, you could use that and save almost 80% on the cost!
both items are white granular substances, they look almost identical,, both are commonly used and there,s not a damn thing wrong with either product,
but I can assure you the resulting "
cake"or ENGINE, built using the less expensive substitute product will result in a much different finished result.
then I point out that THEY will be buying the parts and paying the local machine shop bills for the things I don,t have the required , tools to complete, and I'm probably not going to make over $5 an hour for the week or mores time that the project will require.
THEY WILL BE MAKING ALL THE DECISIONS, THEY WILL BE BUYING ALL THE PARTS,AND THEY WILL BE LEARNING A GOOD DEAL IN THE PROCESS ABOUT HOW AND WHY THINGS WORK THE WAY THEY DO!
they have a choice, they can go to almost any local machine shop or buy a crate engine and in either case spend less money, but they are also not going to get the same end result.
you can take your time, take advantage of decades of experience, and learn how and why things get done a certain way ,and measure and carefully clearance and fit components and do things correctly
or
you can buy and assemble any random list of parts, or buy a crate engine, in either case your car will probably be up and running in a few weeks,
if you want things done correctly you,ll spend a good deal more time and probably 60%-to 200% more money , but I will not be making squat on the deal,but I will get a good deal of satisfaction from the end result.
yes I enjoy the builds and enjoy teaching, and yes I love watching guys, who correctly built their engines, blow the doors off the guys who go the crate engine route , or slap together random components.....this is not and never has been a money making proposition, and I don,t work too a stop watch....if it takes longer and costs a good deal more thats the price of quality, ..but I do have a decent list of satisfied people who like the results they got from building their engine with a good bit of help, many have returned several times over the decades, and I sleep well knowing they did the job correctly.

RELATED INFO
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-68861

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-rabbit-hole-with-alice.10933/#post-48014

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ting-started-in-the-car-hobby.339/#post-60187

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...le-that-don-t-use-resources.12125/#post-58374

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...all-tools-install-info.1479/page-2#post-57049

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/#post-55314

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...y-in-building-a-good-engine.11682/#post-54682

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ding-related-links-and-info.10255/#post-53105

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ting-started-in-the-car-hobby.339/#post-52497

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bare-minimum-tools.11026/#post-51843

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-51341

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/crate-or-build.11257/#post-50889

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...u-buy-bare-or-assembled-heads.534/#post-49129

 
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Few of us can really afford what we'd like so sometimes we have to (or perhaps should) compromise knowing we may never achieve "the goal" otherwise we just have a money pit that gives us no enjoyment for the time and money we've invested. It seems kinda funny how we all fondly remember our high school cars that weren't everything we wanted but compromised and had fun with them while as adults we'd rather do without than compromise. I'm guilty of that and my Firebird has been apart 6-7 years now, a money pit that gives me nothing in return. Meanwhile I save, hoping to come up with the money for the high quality paint I want rather than using a less expensive type that would still probably look fine till long after I'm dead.

Grumpy, you should start a project thread about your C4 starting from the beginning and slowly bring it up to date. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's interested to learn more about it. What do you need to get it finished?
 
Good points talked to our old friend Brian today was just saying still has a Dana 60 4.10 Posi Complete Rear Diff. Hasn't installed yet into his 1987 C4 Corvette Convertible. He plans to rebuild in 2017.

I also talked to machine shop today $168 for zero decking and it would be around $300 all together with installing cam bearings freeze plugs drilling and tapping the front oil galleys and one in the rear some one got a little to deep with the 1/2" drill bit. I think it is worth the extra plus that included removing the broken tap. They plan to torch it out I might try to heat around it and see if I can get it to back out first. But the rest they can do. After that I can start reassembly recheck clearances and make a decision on an oil pump.
 
Few of us can really afford what we'd like so sometimes we have to (or perhaps should) compromise knowing we may never achieve "the goal" otherwise we just have a money pit that gives us no enjoyment for the time and money we've invested. It seems kinda funny how we all fondly remember our high school cars that weren't everything we wanted but compromised and had fun with them while as adults we'd rather do without than compromise. I'm guilty of that and my Firebird has been apart 6-7 years now, a money pit that gives me nothing in return. Meanwhile I save, hoping to come up with the money for the high quality paint I want rather than using a less expensive type that would still probably look fine till long after I'm dead.

Grumpy, you should start a project thread about your C4 starting from the beginning and slowly bring it up to date. I'm sure I'm not the only one who's interested to learn more about it. What do you need to get it finished?
Birdman good bang for buck basecoat is kustom shop and southern poly for clear
 
I don't want to use a BC/CC on my car. I do it on modern cars or classics customers want it done on but there's no way in hell I'd use it on my bird for several reasons. I've got thousands of hours and dollars invested in this paint job already, not going to cheap out on materials now just to get it done quicker. Paint I want is a high end single stage PPG. It's about $700.00 a gallon (without reducer & activators) and I'll need a couple gallons. If it comes out nice it'll look like a mirror.
 
Not much saving anyways when you price it out I was thinking you were stuck on like alsa or HOK. Clear coat from southern Poly used on pebble beach cars high solids good clear never skimp. Kustom shop is great paint last time I checked better prices then HOK for a good custom product. I like ppg, axalta, hok, never a fan of single stage. I know some like it and it is not cause I can't spray it either. But you are right ppg does have the best single stage.
 
So Monday my AFR 210 heads arrived I had sold my AFR 195 street heads and found a set on racing junk. They just happened to be pretty close to where a previous member here works. So I still talk to Brian R. (87vette81big) almost on a daily basis. He volunteered to inspect them for me when he found out how close they were to him and even pick them up if we both agreed on the condition of them. He allowed a smooth transaction to take place. And wrapped them up safely and got them to ups after I sent him a packaging slip via email. It was nice to have another set of trusted eyes looking at them before any cash was exchanged. The older gentleman Tony who owned them before me had them on a 355 used in a rail that ran into the 9's on solid flat tappet he sold them to up his static compression his new heads are 65cc Dart. They are the older casting not the newest but they will not suffer from the port stall that the 195s would at higher lift and rpm. The flow numbers are similar to 195s but will have a softer curve. I also was able to remove the broken tap using some heat a carbide burr and a chisel. Time to ship off to machine shop once again. Pictures courtesy of Brian R. they are the same he used to show me before I received the heads.

100_9757_zpsuvtktalt.jpg 100_9747_zps9ptm7ci2.jpg 100_9749_zpsxh1x6cpe.jpg 100_9750_zpsgyk4o0ka.jpg 100_9751_zpshngkcwnu.jpg 100_9759_zps9gk3quol.jpg 100_9760_zpssb4sfos5.jpg 100_9764_zpsjx2nxjoz.jpg 100_9765_zps8l5docuz.jpg100_9755_zpsf5qthbrn.jpg
 
Those heads are just GORGEOUS!!!!! I miss my AFR heads :p I have a hankering for another pair - and you bought them off of 'Racing Junk'???? Reliable, reputable website?
 
thanks for posting the photos it sure makes it far easier to visualize what your referring too, here!
and keep in mind the change in port volume between something like a 195cc vs the minimally larger 210cc AFR ports is going to have a rather minimal effect on the cars engine performance in the lower and mid rpm ranges but it will be noticeable on the peak power ,
IF THE CAM AND EXHAUST SCAVENGING IS SET UP TO MAXIMIZE UPPER RPM AIR FLOW!
DorianL should be able to comment here, as he previously swapped from TRICK FLOW 195cc to AFR 210 cc heads on his former performance engine build in that recently sold car, and would have noticed the difference in peak power that the minimal port cross sectional area increase provided, and I think he might agree that it had less than a huge effect on his previous engines off idle and lower rpm torque which is commonly the major concern people who have very little hands on experience always seem to be concerned with.
remember its the, cam timing, duration, lift and LSA,and its effect on how effective the exhaust scavenging, is that has a much more noticeable effect on the engines ability to effectively fill the cylinder rather than the port cross sectional area



Volume (CCs) of Head Gasket
CCs of Head Gasket = Bore x Bore x 12.87 x Thickness of Head Gasket
COMMON SBC INTAKE PORTS
felpro # 1204=Port Size: 1.23" x 1.99"=2.448 sq inches

felpro # 1205=Port Size: 1.28" x 2.09"=2.67 sq inches

felpro # 1206=Port Size: 1.34" x 2.21"=2.96 sq inches

felpro # 1207=Port Size: 1.38" x 2.28"=3.146 sq inches

felpro # 1209=Port Size: 1.38" x 2.38"=3.28 sq inches

felpro # 1255 VORTEC=Port Size: 1.08" x 2.16"-2.33 sq inches

felpro # 1263=Port Size: 1.31" x 2.02"=2.65 sq inches

felpro # 1266=Port Size: 1.34" x 2.21"=2.96 sq inches

felpro # 1284 LT1=Port Size: 1.25 x 2.04''=2.55 sq inches

felpro # 1289 FASTBURN=Port Size: 1.30" x 2.31" 3.00 sq inches

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccsa.htm

Your RPM computed from your Cross Sectional Area of 1.95
(the smaller AFR HEADS)
and Bore of 4.03 and Stroke of 3.75 is 5,569.12 .


Your RPM computed from your Cross Sectional Area of 2.05
(the Larger AFR HEADS)
and Bore of 4.03 and Stroke of 3.75 is 5,854.72
.
you,ll barely notice the about 300 rpm shift in the power band on the lower part of rpm range but appreciate it much more on the upper edge of that power curve



heres a chart FROM THE BOOK,HOW TO BUILD BIG-INCH CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS with some common cross sectional port sizes
(measured at the smallest part of the ports)
...........................sq inches........port cc
edelbrock performer rpm ....1.43.............170
vortec......................1.66.............170
tfs195......................1.93.............195
afr 180.....................1.93.............180
afr 195.....................1.98.............195
afr 210.....................2.05.............210
dart pro 200................2.06.............200
dart pro 215................2.14.............215
brodix track 1 .............2.30.............221
dart pro 1 230..............2.40.............230
edelbrock 23 high port .....2.53.............238
edelbrock 18 deg............2.71.............266
tfs 18 deg..................2.80.............250

USE THE CALCULATORS

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...-0902-chevy-engine-port-variations-measuring/
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/choosing-the-right-camshaft/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bits-of-383-info.38/

you may be amazed to find a great deal of research and testing has been done and theres actually proven facts rather than random guess work to use in planing a well built engine combo

READ THROUGH THIS LINK
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/


http://forum.grumpysperformance.com...=8460&p=32923&hilit=curtain+flow+angle#p32923

http://www.wallaceracing.com/max-rpm2.php

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html

http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...block-cylinder-wall-thickness.976/#post-22976

http://www.bgsoflex.com/bestheader.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-to-look-for-in-a-good-engine-combo.9930/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0209-chevy-gm-cylinder-heads/

A VERY USEFUL set of CALCULATORs
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calccsa.htm

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcplv.htm

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcfps.htm

http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcacsa.htm

EXFLOWZ4.jpg

just a bit of info on intake gaskets sizes to match port cross sectional areas

portcsa.jpg

Calculating the valve curtain area
The following equation mathematically defines the available flow area for any given valve diameter and lift value:
Area = valve diameter x 0.98 x 3.14 x valve lift
Where 3.14 = pi (π)
For a typical 2.02-inch intake valve at .500-inch lift, it calculates as follows:
Area = 2.02 x 0.98 x 3.14 x 0.500 = 3.107 square inches
SO lets do a bit of math
a cylinder head with a 2.02' intake valve and a cam with a .450 lift at the valve with a 1.5:1 rocker will in theory produce a valve curtain area of 2.79 sq inches, swapping to a 1.6:1 ratio increases the lift to .480 lift 2.98 sq inches, increasing the available port flow potential at least in theory by about 6%, but keep in mind the port can only flow at full valve lift for the limited time the valve remains at full lift and if the narrowest section of the port cross sectional areas less that the valve curtain area that not the valve restricts flow


reading a few links might help here, but ID also point out that DISPLACEMENT, EXHAUST SCAVENGING EFFICIENCY, AND COMPRESSION RATIO ARE MAJOR FACTORS

example
if a 383 SBC makes 1.3 hp & ft lbs of tq per cubic inch of displacement
thats
498 hp & ft lbs of tq

if a 496 BBC makes 1.3 hp & ft lbs of tq per cubic inch of displacement
thats 645 hp & ft lbs of tq





http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-51341
 
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Those heads are just GORGEOUS!!!!! I miss my AFR heads :p I have a hankering for another pair - and you bought them off of 'Racing Junk'???? Reliable, reputable website?
It is the craigslist of the racing world.

Grumpy you are correct and that was the plan here I really want to be able to spin this up to a redline in 7000 land. Every thing has been built to take advantage of higher rpms so not letting it spin would be crazy. The 383 will have plenty of grunt to get around town but I know where I want it to wake up and really shine.
 
Just the way they were cleaned chamber and valve are in perfect condition and those threads right there. Same as any other gen 1 sbc I will use studs and a longer t handle for ease of removal for lash check as I will be using solid roller.
 
index.php


can you post a clear picture of the valve seat with that valve temporarily removed?
 
Tell Grumpy the Dragster was Set way too Rich AFR.
CARBURATOR CLEANER SPRAYED ON VALVES ONLY.
I WAS THERE
Still ran 9's

Brian R.
 
20170407_165757_Film1-734x1305.jpg 20170407_165054_Film1-1305x734.jpg
Sorry for the fuzzy picture picked these up new but older from ebay for half the price assembly date 2012 all lifters are new never used. Another big item off the list. These are usually $1080 a set.
 
so I have been gathering up all my pennies for the next big purchase on this project as things are getting closer and closer. So my list is narrowing down I sold those other heads for what I paid for them cause I was not a fan of the chamber size and the springs on them where for a solid flat tappet. Both no good for my set up but good deal for the guy that bought them for his superchargered engine. The seats were good he had his builder with him to examine the heads before purchase. They CCed out exactly at 75cc as advertised. But the new heads will be purchased new. I would have already bought them but buying the lifters dug into the head funds. But sometimes you have to jump on a deal when it presents itself.
So here is my list in order.
1. Purchase heads will share my choice after purchase is made.
2. Camshaft purchased I am tossing between three vendors on a custom ground camshaft. LSM Engineering (http://www.lsmeng.com/), Jones Cams ( http://jonescams.com/) or Isky Racing (http://iskycams.com/)
3. Rocker arms I will be running full fulcrum stainless more then likely Comp Magnum. I would like some Scorpion shaft rockers but we will see how money is at the time.
4. Pushrods a quality reputable brand will be used.
5. I may run a rev kit will read more on it.
6. Oil pump and sump I have not made a decision on this yet.
7. Timing Cover I have a bunch of cheap chrome style ones but running the solid roller was thinking of stepping that up this year to cloyes 9-221
8. Head Gaskets, Intake Gasket, Valve cover gaskets if I bother still have reusable ones from last engine- already have my pan gasket and my water pump is o-ring and the timing cover should come with gasket.
 
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