ALLEN stopped by last evening to B.S. about his recent hunts with his 500 S&W , he wanted to brag a bit,
and we spent some time casting up cast bullet projectiles for both his 500 S&W and my 445 DWSM and 44 mag revolvers,
and as you might expect ,
(he loves his new found hobby and revolver)
he started a good natured (RIBBING) conversation into,
why his new 500 S&W was obviously vastly superior to either of my 44 caliber hunting revolvers!,
now theres no argueing that the, 454 casull ,460 and the 500 S&W are not more powerful,
but a several decades long 44 mag track record of success tells me ,
power alone is not the single all important factor in hunting,
and at some point increasing the power level,
does much more to increase recoil than it does toward increasing lethality.
always keep in mind hunting with an iron sight revolver,
limits your effective range too about 120 yards, for most people,
if you have good eye sight and lots of practice,
and I pointed out several times, that only precisely placed hits count!
if you can,t actually hit exactly where your aiming,
having twice the potential power or more is useless.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_hunt_121305/
ID certainly point out that a logical BALANCE ,must be found,
in what the individual using any handgun ,deals with, between initial cost, expected strength,
long term durability, over-all quality, the handguns,size and weight ,
the cartridges potential, penetration,accuracy,trajectory, recoil, levels
, and easy access to ammo.
and if your looking to purchase a big bore magnum revolver, remember longer barrels provide a much more precise sight radias,and
higher velocities and flatter trajectories,
the extra velocity help's reduce longer range,bullet drop, and lack of accuracy issues,all making accurate shot placement at ranges over 50 yards much easier.
Keep in mind you have to be comfortable enough with the handgun you select to PRACTICE WITH IT FREQUENTLY and because of
the cost of AMMO,and your ability too match the ammos performance too the intended game, in use of many of these larger bore handgun, calibers ALMOST MANDATES,....
LEARNING TO HAND LOAD AND CAST YOUR OWN PROJECTILES < AND the practice to become proficient BECOMES ALMOST MANDATORY, if your going to be an ethical handgun hunter.
One thing to keep in mind are the energy requirements of said bullet for hunting elk in the state where you will be hunting.
the 44 mag, 480 Ruger and 454 cassul, all have well proven track records, and it should be obvious that you,ll want to carefully read and understand the local game departments hunting/firearm regulations.
Colorado requires 550 foot pounds at 50 yards. Which the 44 mag has.
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
I used a 21 grain charge of H110 under a LEE 310 grain hard cast 44 cal. bullet seated out to the lower crimp groove
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c430-310-rf-44-special-44-remington-magnum-44-40-wcf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
MOLD DC C 430-310-RF
keep in mind hand gun hunting is similar too archery hunting,
as proper shot placement with an iron sighted big bore revolver becomes much more difficult past that range.
ONLY WELL PLACED HITS ON THE GAMES VITALS COUNT,
POWER IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PRECISE SHOT PLACEMENT.
IT TAKES A GREAT DEAL OF PRACTICE TO BECOME BOTH ACCURATE AND CONSISTENT WITH A BIG BORE REVOLVER.
I can ASSURE YOU FROM EXPERIENCE, that even a properly loaded 44 mag with a 300 grain hard cast bullet over 21 grains of H110 will shoot completely through an elks chest
in that the vast majority of hand gun kills will be made at ranges under 60 yards and shots much over 100 yards by your average hand gun hunter should generally be avoided
I see way too many guys go out and buy a 454 cassul or 460 S&W who take it out to the local range and fire 20 shots and due to the noise and recoil decide that they can,t hit crap and they wasted a great deal of time effort and cash, guys that should have purchased 357 mag or 41 mag, or 44 mag and gotten into hand loading, and weekly practice, and only once they master that, advanced if they felt the need to the larger bore hand guns.....and if you only hunted deer, and hogs and elk, a 41 or 44 mag would have met your needs.
yes there are single shot, and typically scope equipped "HAND GUNS" chambered in rifle calibers that will potentially extend that range limit, but in my opinion,
if your going to do that,
and have the typical scope and 12"-14" barrel,and a 4-5 lb hand gun you can,t easily holster, your better off using a carbine with a shoulder stock that also increased accuracy, not a hand gun.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp?year=all
notice the area just behind , or through,the front leg and from about mid chest downwards to about 5" up from the lower edge,
of the chest is the desired impact area but you'll never go wrong,
selecting the bullet impact target, at the mid way point, vertically ,
on the chest , directly behind or through the near leg ,
as the deer or elk steps forward on a broadside shot.
larger caliber revolvers pushing 250-450 grain hard cast bullets in 44-50 caliber, pushed to 1300-1400 fps or more,
tend too penetrate very effectively at common hand gun ranges.
357 mag= 158 grain-180 grain
41 mag= 220 grain-250 grain
44 mag= 270 grain-320 grain
45 caliber -300 grain-350 grain
480 caliber 350 grain-400 grain
50 caliber 400 grain-480 grain
don,t think a 357 mag can,t be effective, it is,
but its not in the same class as the larger magnums
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/why-the-reluctance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/selecting-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
S&W 1006 10mm
http://www.petersenshunting.com/gear-accessories/ultimate-hunting-handgun-test/
I let him go on for quite a while, smiling and occasionally nodding and agreeing to the fact, that theres zero doubt that the 500 S&W has the most punch, heaviest projectile, etc. but then I pointed out the fact that while theres no contest in the level of power delivered on impact thats not necessarily the same thing as measuring effectiveness, or lethality I look back at decades of in field experience, and
I've rarely failed to have bullets exit the far side of game I shot using just hard cast 300 grain bullets from my 44 mag,
and can,t remember having one fail to exit with my 445 DWSM, theres a point of diminishing returns on the power level you employ when using a large bore hunting revolver , and from personal experience, Id say a 44 mag will handle almost anything in north america with proper hand loads .
now thats not suggesting that a 454 cassul or 480 ruger or 500 S&W can,t hit harder , but ....as always knowing your games anatomy and exact shot placement is more critical that impact energy... once your punching a 44 caliber hole through the games vital organs,and having the projectile exit regularly, a slight increase in power does not gain you a great deal more extra lethality, it may hit harder and thats surely an advantage,
but unless your trying to prevent a large angry bear from climbing into your tent or keeping one from having a personal one-on-one discussion about your lack of judgement and accuracy after you shoot him,
I don,t see the 500 S&W as being hugely more lethal than the 44 mag or 445 DWSM , when those are properly loaded and used by a skilled shooter, as all three will punch holes completely through ELK, and BEARS
I then pointed out the costs, the difference in the bullet molds cost is all but meaningless as both 44 cal and 500 cal bullet molds, and 500 S&W reload dies, can be purchased for similar prices Near $80
but the 44 mag dies being much more common tend to be cheaper NEAR $50 and while 445 DWSM is a bit more
I pointed out other factors before
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/selecting-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_500.htm
I've yet to see any huge difference in accuracy, its the persons skill with a revolver that tends to be a limiting factor as all three can generally produce 2" 50 yard groups and 3.5"-4" 100 yard groups in skilled hands.
but as I pointed out, even my 44 mag revolver with its smaller and lighter and slower 300 grain bullet compared to his 400 grain 500 S&W still produces a lethal wound with a single shot so
all the extra power a 500 S&W has ,while impressive and certainly, comforting and justified,[/B]
if you might want to tackle hunting brown bear at spitting distances,
BUT it is not gaining you much more lethality on white tail deer or ELK![/B]
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/500s&w.jpg
average cost about $1350 AVERAGE HAND LOADS 400 grain at 1300 fps-1500 FPS
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
if you look hard you can find a used or buy a new 44 mag revolver for between $600-$1100 (obviously model, barrel length, age and condition vary)
average handloads 300 grain at 1300 fps-1350 FPS
http://www.lasc.us/fryxell44overweight.htm
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm[/
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/your-choice-in-a-hunting-revolver-should-concentrate-on.3744/
'http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445']http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun']http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445']http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun']http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun
keep in mind that cartridges like the 445 dan wesson
(an extended length case 44 mag,) or the 454 casull and 460 S&W ( an extended length case, similar to a 45 colt)
while significantly more powerful than a standard 44 mag, are not necessarily more lethal in skilled hands, but the extra velocity allows longer effective range use.
and the DAN WESSON REVOLVERS ARE KNOWN TO BE EXCEPTIONALLY ACCURATE and BARRELS ARE EASY TO REPLACE
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm
TAFFIN TESTS: THE .445 SUPERMAG
JOHN TAFFIN
The .357 SuperMag as chambered in the Dan Wesson heavy frame revolver of the same name orinthe Ruger .357 Maximum Blackhawk or even in the Seville Silhouette Single Action, is generally regarded by many experienced silhouetters as the finest revolver cartridge for long range shooting ever conceived.The concept was a simple one. Instead of using a big bore for silhouettes, stretch the .357 Magnum enough that it would handle 180 and 200 grain bullets at normal .357 Magnum muzzle velocities. A length of 1.610" was selected and 180-200 grain bullets did indeed attain the same muzzle velocities as the .357 Magnum using 158 grain bullets. Though the concept was simple, carrying it out was not. It was more than a matter of chambering an existing revolver for the new cartridge as stretching the case to 1.610" also meant stretching revolver frames and cylinders a like amount. This is no simple task and certainly required a large investment in time, money, and engineering.
When the .357 SuperMag from Dan Wesson first appeared on the scene, more than one wildcatter was waiting with reamers in hand to do one thing: Turn it into a true big bore. The largest number of these were turned into .44 SuperMags, and I had the privilege of doing extensive shooting of one such early wildcat, the .44 UltraMag. The .44 UltraMag used .444 Marlin brass cut to 1.600", and this brass being larger in diameter than .44 Magnum brass, was swaged and turned on a lathe until it matched .44 Magnum dimensions. The reason, of course, was to also allow the use of the shorter .44 Magnums in the same cylinder.
My good friend Lew Schafer created the .44 UltraMag and by careful reloading we acquired the following muzzle velocities, in cold temperatures of 20-25 degrees, brutally cold when shooting a big bore revolver, using a six-inch barrelled Dan Wesson revolver:
[/B]
Barrels for the .44 UltraMag were standard Dan Wesson .44 Magnum barrels but because the SuperMag frames used different threads, eight-inch .44 Magnum barrels were cut to six-inches and rethreaded. Various .44 SuperMags, based on either .444 Marlin or .30-40 Krag brass, have surfaced since, but the ".44 Stretched Magnum" became a production sixgun in 1988. Dan Wesson and the late Elgin Gates of IHMSA, combined forces to create the.445 SuperMag. Dan Wesson supplied the guns, IHMSA supplied the brass and healthy orders for the new big bore sixgun.
As of this writing, .445 SuperMags are available only from Dan Wesson in both blue and stainless steel versions. No other revolver manufacturer has seen fit to produce the .445 Supermag, so it is either Dan Wesson or a Thompson/Center Contender single-shot. Brass is available, but no factory loaded rounds. Brass can be acquired only from The Silhouette (phone 208-524-0880), and the latest run will be headstamped ".445 Gates" in memory of its creator.
Problems surfaced early with the .445 SuperMag revolver and also with the .445 brass. The first guns had oversize cylinders and the brass was not properly annealed. Problems with sizing .445 SuperMag brass has also resulted whether using either .445 or .44 Magnum carbide sizing dies both of which often raise a sharp ring of metal right above the base of the fired shell. Standard non-carbide .44 Magnum sizing dies will give better results. In my reloading of the .445, I use neither .445 nor .44 Magnum sizing dies but instead opt for a custom RCBS .44 Schafer UltraMag sizing die that puts a slight taper on the case from base to mouth, and is much easier on brass. It is somewhat of a nuisance to use as cases must be lubed and virtually hand fed into the very sharp, very flat base of the sizing die, but the results are well worth it. Most sizing dies have a slight funnel shape at the bottom to assist entrance of the case mouth; the .44 UltraMag die does not.
Except for the case-sizing cautions, reloading the .44 SuperMag is the same as for reloading the .44 Magnum. A good heavy crimp is required both to keep bullets from moving forward in recoil as the big sixgun is fired, and also to get the powder started burning properly. Powder selection is a little different as I stay with H4227, WW296, H110, WW680, and AA#1680, staying away from any faster burning powders.
The same bullets that work in the .44 Magnum also work well in the .44 SuperMag with my preference being for the heavier bullets in the 290 to 310 grain weight range. The .44 SuperMag is a an exceptionally accurate cartridge and this accuracy is even further enhanced by the use of heavyweight bullets such as the SSK J.D. Jones designed #310.429 flat point, the NEI #295.429 GC (available from BRP Bullets, 1210 Alexander Road, Dept. AH, Colorado Springs Colorado 80909) or Sierra's 300 grain jacketed flat point. Speer also has a 300 grain bullet in the works but I have not yet received any for testing as this is written.
Large Rifle primers are usually recommended for the .445 UltraMag/SuperMag/Gates, but I have yet to determine a nickel's worth of difference between the use of Large Rifle Primers and Magnum Pistol Primers. Muzzle velocities and accuracy are both virtually identical whether Federal or CCI Large Rifle Primers, or Federal or CCI Magnum Pistol Primers are used.
The .445 SuperMag has been touted as a silhouette revolver and it is IF properly loaded. It makes little sense to load it to the hilt and try to shoot 40, 60, or 80 targets with it. Even with the ten-inch barrelled version, which is just a shade under four pounds, recoil can be quite disconcerting with full house loads. For silhouetting, I would stay at 1650 feet per second or less with the 220 grain Sierra silhouette bullet or 1500 feet per second with the 240 Speer silhouette bullet. Using the 220 grain Sierra and 34.0 grains of H4227, muzzle velocity is 1648 feet per second according to the triple sky screens of my Oehler Model 35P chronograph. The same load in an eight-inch barrel goes 1635 fps, six-inch gives 1541 fps, and the Super Fourteen T/C Contender milks it for all it is worth and yields just barely over two thousand feet per second.
With the 240 Speer silhouette bullet, I use either 33.0 grains of H110, 31.0 grains of H4227, or 38.0 grains of WW680 for the 1500 feet per second muzzle velocity range from the ten-inch barrelled Dan Wesson. These same loads will do 1350 to 1450 feet per second in the six-inch and eight-inch barreled DW's and right around 1850 in the Super Fourteen.
The heavier weight bullets really make the .445 worthwhile and the replacing of the ten-inch standard barrel or eight-inch heavy barrel that were standard equipment with my early .445 Dan Wesson with a standard weight six-inch barrel makes the .445 handle as easily as a Smith & Wesson Model 29. Well, real close anyway. The shorter barrel transforms the big Dan Wesson from a clumsy, heavy competition pistol to a very packable hunting pistol.
Hunting with the .445 SuperMag means heavyweight bullets such as the 265 grain Hornady Jacketed Flat Point, the 300 grain Sierra Jacketed Flat Point, or cast bullets such as NEI's 295 grain Keith style or SSK's 310 grain flat point. Using 31.0 grains of H110 with the latter three bullets in the 300 grain weight range yields impressive muzzle velocities with the six-inch barreled Dan Wesson. Even with this relatively short barrel length, the 300 grain cast bullets will go 1500 feet per second giving a lot of power from a small package, or the 300 grain Sierra Jacketed Flat Point will do 1300 feet per second with the same load. For a slightly less powerful load, try 34.0 grains of WW680 with either of the 300 grain bullets.
I used a 21 grain charge of H110 under a LEE 310 grain hard cast 44 cal. bullet seated out to the lower crimp groove
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...cf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
MOLD DC C 430-310-RF
if you really want to maximize any large bore revolvers lethality you'll most likely want to order a custom bullet mold, to produce an exceptionally effective hard cast gas check bullet design, luckily mountain molds will work with you to produce most of the bullet molds you might want if you can,t find a commercially available design you like, the key is maximizing penetration and having a 80%-85% wide melplat (flat nose) to maximize the tissue destruction,in a gas check design, that keeps the bore clean, in a weight that you can push to at least 1300 fps, the bullet below is decent in a 44 mag , where 1300 fps is not hard to reach, and almost perfect for hunting ammo in a 445 DWSP where it can easily be pushed to over 1570 fps in a 10" barrel revolver, using max safe charges of H110 powder.
now I got asked why I would spend $100 on a custom mold to cast these and what the advantage would be over a $30 LEE 310 grain mold, and truthfully the difference is not huge, but the mountain mold does seem to be consistently a bit more accurate.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...how-to-hunt-with-a-revolver.14205/#post-78530
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690858/double-cavity-mold-c430-310-rf
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-300B-D.png
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000152660650/double-cavity-pistol-bullet-mould-number-429650-44-caliber-300-grain
LOADS FOR THE .445 SUPERMAG
FIREARM: DAN WESSON MODEL 445
CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P
PRIMER: FEDERAL #210
TEMPERATURE: 70 DEGREES
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SIERRA 300 JFP 29.0 GR. H110 1299 1290 1220
30.0 GR. H110 1302 1294 1242
31.0 GR. H110 1395 1394 1295
32.0 GR. H110 1445 1429 1369
32.0 GR. WW680 1144 1121 1100
33.0 GR. WW680 1229 1163 1133
34.0 GR. WW680 1284 1247 1191
35.0 GR. WW680 1340 1293 1253
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
BRP 295 KEITH* 29.0 GR. H110 1447 1443 1376
30.0 GR. H110 1512 1502 1477
31.0 GR. H110 1608 1572 1498
32.0 GR. H110 1635 1607 1527
32.0 GR. WW680 1397 1344 1336
33.0 GR. WW680 1435 1406 1405
34.0 GR. WW680 1554 1496 1442
35.0 GR. WW680 1568 1541 1514
36.0 GR. WW680 1612 1550 1538
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SSK 310 FN** 29.0 GR. H110 1446 1442 1402
30.0 GR. H110 1501 1472 1421
31.0 GR. H110 1546 1494 1491
32.0 GR. H110 1575 1563 1544
32.0 GR. WW680 1399 1375 1334
33.0 GR. WW680 1492 1462 1444
34.0 GR. WW680 1572 1521 1500
35.0 GR. WW680 1601 1547 1517
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
HORNADY 265 FN 29.0 GR. H110 1361 1308 1258
30.0 GR. H110 1406 1394 1286
31.0 GR. H110 1486 1459 1310
32.0 GR. H110 1536 1527 1409
29.0 GR. H4227 1390 1377 1267
30.0 GR. H4227 1468 1445 1306
31.0 GR. H4227 1534 1506 1327
32.0 GR. H4227 1581 1576 1430
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SPEER 240 FMJ 32.0 GR. H110 1471 1441 1313
33.0 GR. H110 1516 1517 1387
34.0 GR. H110 1522 1525 1442
35.0 GR. H110 1577 1533 1485
36.0 GR. H110 1570 1575 1512
30.0 GR. H4227 1408 1367 1296
31.0 GR. H4227 1514 1493 1326
32.0 GR. H4227 1609 1599 1444
33.0 GR. H4227 1682 1626 1550
35.0 GR. WW680 1419 1335 1227
36.0 GR. WW680 1451 1359 1289
37.0 GR. WW680 1476 1391 1331
38.0 GR. WW680 1504 1432 1353
39.0 GR. WW680 1499 1630 1405
34.0 GR. AA#1680 1256 1235 1045
35.0 GR. AA#1680 1345 1324 1070
36.0 GR. AA#1680 1377 1365 1189
37.0 GR. AA#1680 1388 1376 1252
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SIERRA 220 FMJ 34.0 GR. H4227 1648 1635 1541
35.0 GR. H4227 1759 1705 1561
36.0 GR. H4227 1793 1780 1640
38.0 GR. WW680 1479 1460 1287
39.0 GR. WW680 1482 1461 1295
40.0 GR. WW680 1517 1491 1360
the DWSM revolvers are no longer made but I've seen them sell in the $900-$1400 range)
average handloads 300 GRAIN AT 1500 fps-1550 fps
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/taffin.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm
http://www.sixguns.com/range/supermags.htm
https://www.starlinebrass.com/
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/44-Mag-Brass/
$177 per thousand cases
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/445-Super-Mag-Brass/
445 DWSM $395 per thousand cases
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/500-SandW-Mag-Brass/
$499 per 1000 cases
in the end, you get some BRAGGING RIGHTS, for its higher power but you pay more for the revolver, and its heavy, and you need to put up with higher cost , for components and more recoil if you want to use a 500 S&W revolver,
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectively-handle-a-larger-bore-revolver.12784/
[/B]
and we spent some time casting up cast bullet projectiles for both his 500 S&W and my 445 DWSM and 44 mag revolvers,
and as you might expect ,
(he loves his new found hobby and revolver)
he started a good natured (RIBBING) conversation into,
why his new 500 S&W was obviously vastly superior to either of my 44 caliber hunting revolvers!,
now theres no argueing that the, 454 casull ,460 and the 500 S&W are not more powerful,
but a several decades long 44 mag track record of success tells me ,
power alone is not the single all important factor in hunting,
and at some point increasing the power level,
does much more to increase recoil than it does toward increasing lethality.
always keep in mind hunting with an iron sight revolver,
limits your effective range too about 120 yards, for most people,
if you have good eye sight and lots of practice,
and I pointed out several times, that only precisely placed hits count!
if you can,t actually hit exactly where your aiming,
having twice the potential power or more is useless.
http://www.shootingtimes.com/ammo/ammunition_hunt_121305/
ID certainly point out that a logical BALANCE ,must be found,
in what the individual using any handgun ,deals with, between initial cost, expected strength,
long term durability, over-all quality, the handguns,size and weight ,
the cartridges potential, penetration,accuracy,trajectory, recoil, levels
, and easy access to ammo.
and if your looking to purchase a big bore magnum revolver, remember longer barrels provide a much more precise sight radias,and
higher velocities and flatter trajectories,
the extra velocity help's reduce longer range,bullet drop, and lack of accuracy issues,all making accurate shot placement at ranges over 50 yards much easier.
Keep in mind you have to be comfortable enough with the handgun you select to PRACTICE WITH IT FREQUENTLY and because of
the cost of AMMO,and your ability too match the ammos performance too the intended game, in use of many of these larger bore handgun, calibers ALMOST MANDATES,....
LEARNING TO HAND LOAD AND CAST YOUR OWN PROJECTILES < AND the practice to become proficient BECOMES ALMOST MANDATORY, if your going to be an ethical handgun hunter.
One thing to keep in mind are the energy requirements of said bullet for hunting elk in the state where you will be hunting.
the 44 mag, 480 Ruger and 454 cassul, all have well proven track records, and it should be obvious that you,ll want to carefully read and understand the local game departments hunting/firearm regulations.
Colorado requires 550 foot pounds at 50 yards. Which the 44 mag has.
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
I used a 21 grain charge of H110 under a LEE 310 grain hard cast 44 cal. bullet seated out to the lower crimp groove
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/511417/lee-2-cavity-bullet-mold-c430-310-rf-44-special-44-remington-magnum-44-40-wcf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
MOLD DC C 430-310-RF
keep in mind hand gun hunting is similar too archery hunting,
as proper shot placement with an iron sighted big bore revolver becomes much more difficult past that range.
ONLY WELL PLACED HITS ON THE GAMES VITALS COUNT,
POWER IS NOT AS IMPORTANT AS PRECISE SHOT PLACEMENT.
IT TAKES A GREAT DEAL OF PRACTICE TO BECOME BOTH ACCURATE AND CONSISTENT WITH A BIG BORE REVOLVER.
I can ASSURE YOU FROM EXPERIENCE, that even a properly loaded 44 mag with a 300 grain hard cast bullet over 21 grains of H110 will shoot completely through an elks chest
in that the vast majority of hand gun kills will be made at ranges under 60 yards and shots much over 100 yards by your average hand gun hunter should generally be avoided
I see way too many guys go out and buy a 454 cassul or 460 S&W who take it out to the local range and fire 20 shots and due to the noise and recoil decide that they can,t hit crap and they wasted a great deal of time effort and cash, guys that should have purchased 357 mag or 41 mag, or 44 mag and gotten into hand loading, and weekly practice, and only once they master that, advanced if they felt the need to the larger bore hand guns.....and if you only hunted deer, and hogs and elk, a 41 or 44 mag would have met your needs.
yes there are single shot, and typically scope equipped "HAND GUNS" chambered in rifle calibers that will potentially extend that range limit, but in my opinion,
if your going to do that,
and have the typical scope and 12"-14" barrel,and a 4-5 lb hand gun you can,t easily holster, your better off using a carbine with a shoulder stock that also increased accuracy, not a hand gun.
http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp?year=all
notice the area just behind , or through,the front leg and from about mid chest downwards to about 5" up from the lower edge,
of the chest is the desired impact area but you'll never go wrong,
selecting the bullet impact target, at the mid way point, vertically ,
on the chest , directly behind or through the near leg ,
as the deer or elk steps forward on a broadside shot.
larger caliber revolvers pushing 250-450 grain hard cast bullets in 44-50 caliber, pushed to 1300-1400 fps or more,
tend too penetrate very effectively at common hand gun ranges.
357 mag= 158 grain-180 grain
41 mag= 220 grain-250 grain
44 mag= 270 grain-320 grain
45 caliber -300 grain-350 grain
480 caliber 350 grain-400 grain
50 caliber 400 grain-480 grain
don,t think a 357 mag can,t be effective, it is,
but its not in the same class as the larger magnums
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/why-the-reluctance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/selecting-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
S&W 1006 10mm
http://www.petersenshunting.com/gear-accessories/ultimate-hunting-handgun-test/
I let him go on for quite a while, smiling and occasionally nodding and agreeing to the fact, that theres zero doubt that the 500 S&W has the most punch, heaviest projectile, etc. but then I pointed out the fact that while theres no contest in the level of power delivered on impact thats not necessarily the same thing as measuring effectiveness, or lethality I look back at decades of in field experience, and
I've rarely failed to have bullets exit the far side of game I shot using just hard cast 300 grain bullets from my 44 mag,
and can,t remember having one fail to exit with my 445 DWSM, theres a point of diminishing returns on the power level you employ when using a large bore hunting revolver , and from personal experience, Id say a 44 mag will handle almost anything in north america with proper hand loads .
now thats not suggesting that a 454 cassul or 480 ruger or 500 S&W can,t hit harder , but ....as always knowing your games anatomy and exact shot placement is more critical that impact energy... once your punching a 44 caliber hole through the games vital organs,and having the projectile exit regularly, a slight increase in power does not gain you a great deal more extra lethality, it may hit harder and thats surely an advantage,
but unless your trying to prevent a large angry bear from climbing into your tent or keeping one from having a personal one-on-one discussion about your lack of judgement and accuracy after you shoot him,
I don,t see the 500 S&W as being hugely more lethal than the 44 mag or 445 DWSM , when those are properly loaded and used by a skilled shooter, as all three will punch holes completely through ELK, and BEARS
I then pointed out the costs, the difference in the bullet molds cost is all but meaningless as both 44 cal and 500 cal bullet molds, and 500 S&W reload dies, can be purchased for similar prices Near $80
but the 44 mag dies being much more common tend to be cheaper NEAR $50 and while 445 DWSM is a bit more
I pointed out other factors before
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/selecting-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
http://www.gunblast.com/Taurus_500.htm
I've yet to see any huge difference in accuracy, its the persons skill with a revolver that tends to be a limiting factor as all three can generally produce 2" 50 yard groups and 3.5"-4" 100 yard groups in skilled hands.
but as I pointed out, even my 44 mag revolver with its smaller and lighter and slower 300 grain bullet compared to his 400 grain 500 S&W still produces a lethal wound with a single shot so
all the extra power a 500 S&W has ,while impressive and certainly, comforting and justified,[/B]
if you might want to tackle hunting brown bear at spitting distances,
BUT it is not gaining you much more lethality on white tail deer or ELK![/B]
http://www.grumpysperformance.com/500s&w.jpg
average cost about $1350 AVERAGE HAND LOADS 400 grain at 1300 fps-1500 FPS
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
if you look hard you can find a used or buy a new 44 mag revolver for between $600-$1100 (obviously model, barrel length, age and condition vary)
average handloads 300 grain at 1300 fps-1350 FPS
http://www.lasc.us/fryxell44overweight.htm
http://www.customsixguns.com/writings/heavyweight_bullets.htm[/
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt44mag.htm
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=']http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=44 Magnum&Weight=300&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/your-choice-in-a-hunting-revolver-should-concentrate-on.3744/
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445']http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun']http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun
keep in mind that cartridges like the 445 dan wesson
(an extended length case 44 mag,) or the 454 casull and 460 S&W ( an extended length case, similar to a 45 colt)
while significantly more powerful than a standard 44 mag, are not necessarily more lethal in skilled hands, but the extra velocity allows longer effective range use.
and the DAN WESSON REVOLVERS ARE KNOWN TO BE EXCEPTIONALLY ACCURATE and BARRELS ARE EASY TO REPLACE
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm
TAFFIN TESTS: THE .445 SUPERMAG
JOHN TAFFIN
The .357 SuperMag as chambered in the Dan Wesson heavy frame revolver of the same name orinthe Ruger .357 Maximum Blackhawk or even in the Seville Silhouette Single Action, is generally regarded by many experienced silhouetters as the finest revolver cartridge for long range shooting ever conceived.The concept was a simple one. Instead of using a big bore for silhouettes, stretch the .357 Magnum enough that it would handle 180 and 200 grain bullets at normal .357 Magnum muzzle velocities. A length of 1.610" was selected and 180-200 grain bullets did indeed attain the same muzzle velocities as the .357 Magnum using 158 grain bullets. Though the concept was simple, carrying it out was not. It was more than a matter of chambering an existing revolver for the new cartridge as stretching the case to 1.610" also meant stretching revolver frames and cylinders a like amount. This is no simple task and certainly required a large investment in time, money, and engineering.
When the .357 SuperMag from Dan Wesson first appeared on the scene, more than one wildcatter was waiting with reamers in hand to do one thing: Turn it into a true big bore. The largest number of these were turned into .44 SuperMags, and I had the privilege of doing extensive shooting of one such early wildcat, the .44 UltraMag. The .44 UltraMag used .444 Marlin brass cut to 1.600", and this brass being larger in diameter than .44 Magnum brass, was swaged and turned on a lathe until it matched .44 Magnum dimensions. The reason, of course, was to also allow the use of the shorter .44 Magnums in the same cylinder.
My good friend Lew Schafer created the .44 UltraMag and by careful reloading we acquired the following muzzle velocities, in cold temperatures of 20-25 degrees, brutally cold when shooting a big bore revolver, using a six-inch barrelled Dan Wesson revolver:
[/B]
- 200 grain Hornady Jacketed Hollow Point 1718 fps
- 220 grain Sierra FPJ Silhouette 1670 fps
- 240 grain Hornady Jacketed Silhouette 1596 fps
- 265 grain Hornady Jacketed Flat Point 1495 fps
- 305 grain Cast Gas Checked Bullet 1589 fps
Barrels for the .44 UltraMag were standard Dan Wesson .44 Magnum barrels but because the SuperMag frames used different threads, eight-inch .44 Magnum barrels were cut to six-inches and rethreaded. Various .44 SuperMags, based on either .444 Marlin or .30-40 Krag brass, have surfaced since, but the ".44 Stretched Magnum" became a production sixgun in 1988. Dan Wesson and the late Elgin Gates of IHMSA, combined forces to create the.445 SuperMag. Dan Wesson supplied the guns, IHMSA supplied the brass and healthy orders for the new big bore sixgun.
As of this writing, .445 SuperMags are available only from Dan Wesson in both blue and stainless steel versions. No other revolver manufacturer has seen fit to produce the .445 Supermag, so it is either Dan Wesson or a Thompson/Center Contender single-shot. Brass is available, but no factory loaded rounds. Brass can be acquired only from The Silhouette (phone 208-524-0880), and the latest run will be headstamped ".445 Gates" in memory of its creator.
Problems surfaced early with the .445 SuperMag revolver and also with the .445 brass. The first guns had oversize cylinders and the brass was not properly annealed. Problems with sizing .445 SuperMag brass has also resulted whether using either .445 or .44 Magnum carbide sizing dies both of which often raise a sharp ring of metal right above the base of the fired shell. Standard non-carbide .44 Magnum sizing dies will give better results. In my reloading of the .445, I use neither .445 nor .44 Magnum sizing dies but instead opt for a custom RCBS .44 Schafer UltraMag sizing die that puts a slight taper on the case from base to mouth, and is much easier on brass. It is somewhat of a nuisance to use as cases must be lubed and virtually hand fed into the very sharp, very flat base of the sizing die, but the results are well worth it. Most sizing dies have a slight funnel shape at the bottom to assist entrance of the case mouth; the .44 UltraMag die does not.
Except for the case-sizing cautions, reloading the .44 SuperMag is the same as for reloading the .44 Magnum. A good heavy crimp is required both to keep bullets from moving forward in recoil as the big sixgun is fired, and also to get the powder started burning properly. Powder selection is a little different as I stay with H4227, WW296, H110, WW680, and AA#1680, staying away from any faster burning powders.
The same bullets that work in the .44 Magnum also work well in the .44 SuperMag with my preference being for the heavier bullets in the 290 to 310 grain weight range. The .44 SuperMag is a an exceptionally accurate cartridge and this accuracy is even further enhanced by the use of heavyweight bullets such as the SSK J.D. Jones designed #310.429 flat point, the NEI #295.429 GC (available from BRP Bullets, 1210 Alexander Road, Dept. AH, Colorado Springs Colorado 80909) or Sierra's 300 grain jacketed flat point. Speer also has a 300 grain bullet in the works but I have not yet received any for testing as this is written.
Large Rifle primers are usually recommended for the .445 UltraMag/SuperMag/Gates, but I have yet to determine a nickel's worth of difference between the use of Large Rifle Primers and Magnum Pistol Primers. Muzzle velocities and accuracy are both virtually identical whether Federal or CCI Large Rifle Primers, or Federal or CCI Magnum Pistol Primers are used.
The .445 SuperMag has been touted as a silhouette revolver and it is IF properly loaded. It makes little sense to load it to the hilt and try to shoot 40, 60, or 80 targets with it. Even with the ten-inch barrelled version, which is just a shade under four pounds, recoil can be quite disconcerting with full house loads. For silhouetting, I would stay at 1650 feet per second or less with the 220 grain Sierra silhouette bullet or 1500 feet per second with the 240 Speer silhouette bullet. Using the 220 grain Sierra and 34.0 grains of H4227, muzzle velocity is 1648 feet per second according to the triple sky screens of my Oehler Model 35P chronograph. The same load in an eight-inch barrel goes 1635 fps, six-inch gives 1541 fps, and the Super Fourteen T/C Contender milks it for all it is worth and yields just barely over two thousand feet per second.
With the 240 Speer silhouette bullet, I use either 33.0 grains of H110, 31.0 grains of H4227, or 38.0 grains of WW680 for the 1500 feet per second muzzle velocity range from the ten-inch barrelled Dan Wesson. These same loads will do 1350 to 1450 feet per second in the six-inch and eight-inch barreled DW's and right around 1850 in the Super Fourteen.
The heavier weight bullets really make the .445 worthwhile and the replacing of the ten-inch standard barrel or eight-inch heavy barrel that were standard equipment with my early .445 Dan Wesson with a standard weight six-inch barrel makes the .445 handle as easily as a Smith & Wesson Model 29. Well, real close anyway. The shorter barrel transforms the big Dan Wesson from a clumsy, heavy competition pistol to a very packable hunting pistol.
Hunting with the .445 SuperMag means heavyweight bullets such as the 265 grain Hornady Jacketed Flat Point, the 300 grain Sierra Jacketed Flat Point, or cast bullets such as NEI's 295 grain Keith style or SSK's 310 grain flat point. Using 31.0 grains of H110 with the latter three bullets in the 300 grain weight range yields impressive muzzle velocities with the six-inch barreled Dan Wesson. Even with this relatively short barrel length, the 300 grain cast bullets will go 1500 feet per second giving a lot of power from a small package, or the 300 grain Sierra Jacketed Flat Point will do 1300 feet per second with the same load. For a slightly less powerful load, try 34.0 grains of WW680 with either of the 300 grain bullets.
I used a 21 grain charge of H110 under a LEE 310 grain hard cast 44 cal. bullet seated out to the lower crimp groove
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/5...cf-430-diameter-310-grain-flat-nose-gas-check
MOLD DC C 430-310-RF
if you really want to maximize any large bore revolvers lethality you'll most likely want to order a custom bullet mold, to produce an exceptionally effective hard cast gas check bullet design, luckily mountain molds will work with you to produce most of the bullet molds you might want if you can,t find a commercially available design you like, the key is maximizing penetration and having a 80%-85% wide melplat (flat nose) to maximize the tissue destruction,in a gas check design, that keeps the bore clean, in a weight that you can push to at least 1300 fps, the bullet below is decent in a 44 mag , where 1300 fps is not hard to reach, and almost perfect for hunting ammo in a 445 DWSP where it can easily be pushed to over 1570 fps in a 10" barrel revolver, using max safe charges of H110 powder.
now I got asked why I would spend $100 on a custom mold to cast these and what the advantage would be over a $30 LEE 310 grain mold, and truthfully the difference is not huge, but the mountain mold does seem to be consistently a bit more accurate.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...how-to-hunt-with-a-revolver.14205/#post-78530
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/0000690858/double-cavity-mold-c430-310-rf
http://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=43-300B-D.png
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/item/000152660650/double-cavity-pistol-bullet-mould-number-429650-44-caliber-300-grain
LOADS FOR THE .445 SUPERMAG
FIREARM: DAN WESSON MODEL 445
CHRONOGRAPH: OEHLER MODEL 35P
PRIMER: FEDERAL #210
TEMPERATURE: 70 DEGREES
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SIERRA 300 JFP 29.0 GR. H110 1299 1290 1220
30.0 GR. H110 1302 1294 1242
31.0 GR. H110 1395 1394 1295
32.0 GR. H110 1445 1429 1369
32.0 GR. WW680 1144 1121 1100
33.0 GR. WW680 1229 1163 1133
34.0 GR. WW680 1284 1247 1191
35.0 GR. WW680 1340 1293 1253
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
BRP 295 KEITH* 29.0 GR. H110 1447 1443 1376
30.0 GR. H110 1512 1502 1477
31.0 GR. H110 1608 1572 1498
32.0 GR. H110 1635 1607 1527
32.0 GR. WW680 1397 1344 1336
33.0 GR. WW680 1435 1406 1405
34.0 GR. WW680 1554 1496 1442
35.0 GR. WW680 1568 1541 1514
36.0 GR. WW680 1612 1550 1538
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SSK 310 FN** 29.0 GR. H110 1446 1442 1402
30.0 GR. H110 1501 1472 1421
31.0 GR. H110 1546 1494 1491
32.0 GR. H110 1575 1563 1544
32.0 GR. WW680 1399 1375 1334
33.0 GR. WW680 1492 1462 1444
34.0 GR. WW680 1572 1521 1500
35.0 GR. WW680 1601 1547 1517
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
HORNADY 265 FN 29.0 GR. H110 1361 1308 1258
30.0 GR. H110 1406 1394 1286
31.0 GR. H110 1486 1459 1310
32.0 GR. H110 1536 1527 1409
29.0 GR. H4227 1390 1377 1267
30.0 GR. H4227 1468 1445 1306
31.0 GR. H4227 1534 1506 1327
32.0 GR. H4227 1581 1576 1430
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SPEER 240 FMJ 32.0 GR. H110 1471 1441 1313
33.0 GR. H110 1516 1517 1387
34.0 GR. H110 1522 1525 1442
35.0 GR. H110 1577 1533 1485
36.0 GR. H110 1570 1575 1512
30.0 GR. H4227 1408 1367 1296
31.0 GR. H4227 1514 1493 1326
32.0 GR. H4227 1609 1599 1444
33.0 GR. H4227 1682 1626 1550
35.0 GR. WW680 1419 1335 1227
36.0 GR. WW680 1451 1359 1289
37.0 GR. WW680 1476 1391 1331
38.0 GR. WW680 1504 1432 1353
39.0 GR. WW680 1499 1630 1405
34.0 GR. AA#1680 1256 1235 1045
35.0 GR. AA#1680 1345 1324 1070
36.0 GR. AA#1680 1377 1365 1189
37.0 GR. AA#1680 1388 1376 1252
BULLET LOAD MV 10" MV 8" MV 6"
SIERRA 220 FMJ 34.0 GR. H4227 1648 1635 1541
35.0 GR. H4227 1759 1705 1561
36.0 GR. H4227 1793 1780 1640
38.0 GR. WW680 1479 1460 1287
39.0 GR. WW680 1482 1461 1295
40.0 GR. WW680 1517 1491 1360
the DWSM revolvers are no longer made but I've seen them sell in the $900-$1400 range)
average handloads 300 GRAIN AT 1500 fps-1550 fps
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/taffin.asp?Caliber=445 Supermag&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=
http://www.sixguns.com/tests/tt445sm.htm
http://www.sixguns.com/range/supermags.htm
https://www.starlinebrass.com/
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/44-Mag-Brass/
$177 per thousand cases
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/445-Super-Mag-Brass/
445 DWSM $395 per thousand cases
https://www.starlinebrass.com/brass-cases/500-SandW-Mag-Brass/
$499 per 1000 cases
in the end, you get some BRAGGING RIGHTS, for its higher power but you pay more for the revolver, and its heavy, and you need to put up with higher cost , for components and more recoil if you want to use a 500 S&W revolver,
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectively-handle-a-larger-bore-revolver.12784/
[/B]
Last edited: