muncie spline count

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
ALLEN said:
grumpy? I got talked into helping a neighbor do a clutch replacement in a 1965 corvette,and obviously need a new clutch disc, pressure plate and throw out bearing , the local napa has everything at a decent price but the counter guy asked me if the transmission is using a 10 or 26 spline clutch disc, how do I know what I'm dealing with before I pull the transmission out?

well I can tell you that a car that old with a manual transmission might not still have the original trans installed but if you either locate the numbers and cross check those or pull the drive shaft and count the out put splines you'll quickly know which spline count is used on the clutch disc, read thru this link and sub-links .
Id also suggest a good borg & beck style pressure plate vs the stock diaphragm style as the cheaper versions occasionally don,t work well at high rpm shifts

diaphragm style
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BORG & BECK
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chances favor the 10 spline count clutch disc,if its original
and on a car that old it could be a 10.4 or 11" diameter clutch disc, as many corvettes
(even SBC engines) were upgraded to the 11" big block performance clutch back in the day
as back in the early 70s parts over the dealers parts counter were dirt cheap.

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keep in mind theres three common throw out bearing heights and youll need the correct height for your particular application to get proper clutch function
READ THE THREAD AND SUB LINKS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/muncie-transmission-info.396/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/throwout-bearing-noise.6899/#post-22511
 
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DZAUTO said:
I'm rebuilding a 68 Muncie for a customer and this is typical of what I find inside. The 63-69 Muncies did not have a drain plug (except M22s). But ALLLLLLLLLLLLL Muncie cases have the boss for a drain plug. The 63-69 Muncies have a magnetic donut glued to the bottom of the case. There is NO WAY to drain the tranny, nor is there any way to remove the accumulation of metal particles from the donut magnet (without removing the tranny).
This is typical of what I find inside a hi-mileage/well used Muncie. You can see the outline of the donut which is covered with sludge/tiny metal particles.
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Same case with all the guts removed.
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The removed and cleaned donut.
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As I mentioned, ALLLLLLLLLLL Muncie cases have a boss for a drain plug.
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I start out with a pilot hole to assure it will be centered and straight in the boss.
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Then drill a larger hole (11/16 drill bit).
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The hole is tapped with a 1/2in pipe tap.
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With a magnetic drain plug installed, the oil can be drained and changed, BUT, it also permits removal of any metal particles which can continue to circulate in the tranny and cause continued wear to gear teeth and bearings.
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When you go to install the muncie transmission, you'll obviously want the clutch disc lined up correctly with the clutch alignment tool, and the pressure plate bolted on the flywheel, then remove the alignment tool after the bell housings ready to properly install, ID start with a clutch disc alignment tool being removed once the then Id get the bell housing lined up, ID install two 3" long studs, if you can,t find studs buy studs buy 3" bolts and cut the heads off and round off the tips to allow easy use
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that have the same thread as the muncie trans retention bolts in the bottom two bell housing bolt holes, so you could get the majority of the weight off the trans front and get the spline close to lining up, use the two top bolts to clamp in to the bell housing before removing the studs and replacing them with bolts,


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ools-diagnosing-clutch-issues.3553/#post-9431

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ectly-installing-bellhousings.584/#post-55596

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/muncie-spline-count.11255/#post-50852

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/trans-won-t-fully-seat.8164/#post-28342

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/clutch-fork-question.7852/#post-27090


 
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http://www.riversidegear.com/muncie...g-m23-4-speed-custom-built-to-your-needs.html

http://www.autogear.net/motorsports/

The strongest of the "Muncie" based 4 speeds, the Auto Gear M23 is your answer for strength in those higher HP and torque applications where an M20/21 or even M22 just won't do. Very strong, updated design in first gear area makes these very desirable for the big engine crowd. The Auto Gear "Thrust Button" main case, NEW SUPER STRONG yet lightweight Auto Gear Aluminum mid plate, super strong tail housing, sealed full width bearings and more all add strength to this already strong gear train. The modular countershaft cluster gear, allows for many ratio combinations that heretofore were not possible. Vented tail, sealed input and available "Super Finish" on internal parts are just few more of the upgrades and changes that make these units far and away the best on the market. These units can, and in most cases need to be "custom" designed to your vehicle and it's intended use. Many ratio combinations are available, PLEASE contact us to help you with what will work best for your application and intended use. 877-614-4327 TOLL FREE
Part No: RSG-M23

Price: $3,299.95
Sale Price: $2,999.95
In Stock

Hi Guys and Girls;
I'm Nate with Auto Gear.
Not to step on toes, or steal thunder; here is a complete ratio chart for the soon to be released Auto Gear M23 (available only through us or approved vendors such as Jody)

I want to thank all of you guys for believing in and supporting Auto Gear Equipment; and I also want to thank Jody and the other distributors who have continued their support throughout the years.

The final To-Be-Released ratios for the M23 are 9 in total:
2.994:1 - 2.225:1 - 1.466:1 - 1:1 (M23Z)
2.994:1 - 2.225:1 - 1.593:1 - 1:1
2.994:1 - 2.225:1 - 1.729:1 - 1:1

2.568:1 - 1.908:1 - 1.259:1 - 1:1
2.568:1 - 1.908:1 - 1.366:1 - 1:1 (M23W)
2.568:1 - 1.908:1 - 1.463:1 - 1:1

2.207:1 - 1.640:1 - 1.082:1 - 1:1
2.207:1 - 1.640:1 - 1.174:1 - 1:1
2.207:1 - 1.640:1 - 1.274:1 - 1:1 (M23)

There may be some minor typo's in this as I'm reading it off the print. Any typographical errors would be in the hundredths or thousandths positions, not much to worry about 1.466 might be 1.468.

M23 stuff will be in for evaluation and testing within a couple of weeks and then made available through Jody and other approved vendors (a complete list is available) along with Auto Gear.


MUSCLE CAR GEARBOXES WERE DESIGNED FOR DAILY DRIVING. WHICH MEANS FIRST GEAR WAS ONLY INTENDED TO GET THINGS MOVING; THE HEAVY LIFTING WAS MEANT TO BE DONE IN SECOND. SO THE STURDIEST GEAR HASN'T BEEN THE ONE YOU'VE BEEN HAMMERING. NOW IT CAN BE. WE DESIGNED OUR NEW M23 GEARBOX FOR YOU, THE STREET/STRIP DRIVER.

FIRST GEAR IS STRONGER. A LOT STRONGER. SO IS REVERSE. AND THE COUNTER SHAFT IS MODULAR SO YOU CAN FIND THE PERFECT RATIO SPREAD WITHOUT ROBBING A BANK. HAPPY WITH THE NUMBERS YOU ALREADY HAVE? THE M23's NINE RATIOS INCLUDE THE OLD STANDARDS, SO THERE'S NO NEED TO CHANGE REARS OR SHIFT POINTS. AND YOU STILL GET AUTO GEAR'S INDUSTRY-LEADING FEATURES: SUPER CASE, DUCTILE IRON MID PLATE, ANCHORED COUNTER SHAFT.

WHAT'S THE CATCH? OUR M23 RUNS SLIGHTLY NOISIER AND HOTTER THAN OUR STANDARD GEARING. BUT ISN'T THAT A SMALL PRICE FOR NOT SCATTERING YOUR FOUR-SPEED AT THE LINE?
 
IF youve ever tried to speed shift a ford or mopar 4 speed transmission of the muscle car era
(roughly 1960-1975) and compared it to a well set up MUNCIE G.M. transmission you know all too well that the muncie used in many G.M. products like corvettes, camaros, GTO's etc was significantly smoother and easier too shift.
it may not have been as strong as some of the other options but a skilled driver could get it to shift flawlessly

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https://www.midwestmuncie.com/product/super-duty-m23/

All transmissions have their place in this hobby.

The TKO600 3.27:1 and TKO500 2.87:1 are hurdled by the three internal rail shift system. You need to move two rails to execute those 2-3 shifts. We read plenty of high RPM shifting problems about the TKO unit. If guys were shifting them at high RPMs from 4-5 we would read about that problem too. There is a 3rd gear breakage problem with the TKO. As John has stated, they do NOT have ideal ratios for road racing. But, the TKO does have a place in our hobby.

You cannot compare a 40-50 year old M22 Rockcrusher 2.20:1 to the TKO, the original M22 is antiquated for comparison. There are newer AutoGear M22 series and M23 series 4 speeds that have a 2.20:1, 2.56:1, and the 2.98:1 1st gear ratio to better suit performance and drivability.

DON,T IGNORE LINKS
http://www.5speeds.com/case.html

https://www.midwestmuncie.com/product/new-auto-gearsuper-case-muncie-m22-rock-crusher/

http://www.thegearbox.org/catalog/item/3864782/3547910.htm

https://www.midwestmuncie.com/product/super-duty-m23/

https://www.midwestmuncie.com/product/super-pro-road-race-muncie-case-m22/

http://www.riversidegear.com/muncie-4-speed-transmission/super-case-from-auto-gear.html

http://www.superdoopercheap.com/muncie-case?t=usup_3184230

http://www.autogear.net/wp-content/uploads/2015/03/Muncie_v5.pdf

M22 AutoGear Series are behind my 600HP customers
M23 AutoGear Series are behind my 700HP customers


Some customers use a 3.08:1 diff gear with the M23Z 2.98:1 and have a 4.17:1 1st gear takeoff feel when compared to an original M22.

2.98 x 3.08 / 2.20 = 4.17:1

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NEW Auto Gear Super Cased Muncie M23 4 Speed Transmission 2.20 1st gear Close Ratio

$2,500.00

Out of stock

SKU: 15750Categories: Auto parts, Transmissions
Description
NEW Auto Gear Super Cased Muncie M23

M23 has 34 tooth 12 degree helix 1st gear, bigger straighter tooth pitch. Stronger than the 36 tooth M22 with only 18degree helix cut. M23 has special enlarged thrust button main case, prevents gear deflection between input and cluster gear. Special Slick Shift oversized hardened hubs with 18 spline sliders and steel shift forks. Also lightweight main shaft. M23 is stronger than the M22 for track use but shifts just like the M22 on the street.

4 Speed Transmission
2.20 1st gear Close Ratio

NEW Main Case 18-065-901-L
NEW Tail Housing 18-066-901-E
NEW Side Cover 18-097-902

26/32 Spline

Has an ALL NEW gear set and has been rebuilt to include:
NEW 1st gear
NEW 2nd gear
NEW 3rd gear
NEW input shaft
NEW cluster gear- modular
NEW mainshaft- lightened
NEW bearing retainer -sealed
NEW bearing retainer locks
NEW magnetic drain plug
NEW synchro rings -forged
NEW synchro ring kits
NEW hardware
NEW keys/springs
NEW front bearing =sealed
NEW rear bearing- USA
NEW small parts kit
NEW bushing
NEW seals
NEW cluster pin- Bolted
NEW gasket- competition grade

New forks- crowned

This is a completely new transmission. Ready for street or strip!



A custom wooden crate and insurance is provided in the S&H costs.

A one year limited warranty is included.
 
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https://www.hemmings.com/magazine/mus/2007/08/Muncie-four-speeds/1495624.html

What to look for: hunting down GM's muscle car gearbox

Muncie four-speeds from Hemmings Muscle Machines
August, 2007 - Jim O'Clair
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General Motors used many manual transmissions during the muscle car era. Saginaws, T-10s and Super T-10s have come and gone, but the popularity of the Muncie four-speed has endured right up through the present day with muscle and street car enthusiasts.


The Muncie four-speeds are a very popular transmission with Chevrolet muscle car enthusiasts, and are easily adaptable for a wide range of GM and other non-GM vehicles. They debuted in 1963 Chevrolet full-size cars and Corvettes, and they were originally available in two ratios, 2.20:1 and 2.56:1. GM was phasing out the use of the Borg-Warner T-10 in 1963, and the Muncie 2.56:1 ratio became standard equipment for four-speed applications in the 1964 Chevelle, Nova and Olds F-85/Cutlass.


The early Muncie units built between 1963-'65 had a 7/8-inch input shaft and are not the best transmissions to use in a swap, but it is possible to use them with some changing of the internals. An easier solution would be to find one of the more standardized 2.52:1 or 2.20:1 Muncie four-speeds that were used from 1966-'74. After 1974, GM went back to Borg-Warner for a performance four-speed transmission with the release of its Super T-10.


The following vehicles are likely sources of a Muncie four-speed. Most any mid-size A-, G-, X- or F-body GM vehicle from 1964-'74 could potentially have one.


10-spline units came in these vehicles:


  • 1964-'70 Corvettes and Pontiac Tempest
  • 1967-'70 Buick Special, Firebird and Camaro
  • 1969-'70 Grand Prix
  • 1963-'69 Impala
  • 1965-'70 Nova and Olds Cutlass/F-85 and Chevelle (except the 1970 w/454)
  • 1970 Monte Carlo
26-spline units came in these vehicles:


  • 1970 Chevelle 454
  • 1971 Grand Prix and Monte Carlo
  • 1971-'72 Buick Special and Pontiac Tempest
  • 1971-'73 Nova, F85 and Cutlass
  • 1971-'74 Firebird, Camaro, El Camino, Corvette, Chevelle and GMC Sprint
  • 1973 Buick Century
  • 1973-'74 Pontiac Le Mans
When looking for a donor transmission to complete this exchange, there are still some available at local swap meets, salvage yards or car shows. The first thing to look for to identify a Muncie is the side cover. Muncies have seven bolts: two bolts on the bottom, three on the top and one down each side. There are also two 3/8-inch studs for the shift levers protruding from the side cover. The Saginaw four-speed is similar in appearance, although the Muncie's side cover is more irregularly shaped, the top of the cover being noticeably wider than the bottom. Another way to tell the difference is the reverse lever--the Muncie reverse lever stud is in the extension housing, similar to the nine-bolt T-10, whereas the Saginaw has a third stud through the side cover for the reverse shift lever. All Muncie transmission cases are made of aluminum.


These five casting numbers, stamped prominently in the passenger side of the transmission case, identify all Muncie four-speeds:


  • 3831704 - 1963
  • 3851325 - 1964-'65
  • 3885010 - 1965-'67
  • 3925660 - 1968-'70
  • 3925661 - 1971-'74
Other casting numbers are located on the extension housing, side cover and front bearing retainer. These additional casting numbers will give you clues to the internal parts used in these case numbers. For example, an extension housing casting number of 3857584 indicates the tail shaft housing is from a 1965-'70 passenger car with a 27-spline output shaft. The side cover castings will tell you the type of shift shafts that were used internally.


The 2.20:1 ratio is commonly designated as the Muncie M21 transmission. The 2.56:1 ratio is commonly referred to as the M20. Muncie also had a second close-ratio transmission designated M22 and often referred to as the "rock-crusher," which was used behind the highest-performance engines and in Corvettes, the M22 is a highly sought-after performance transmission. It is the heavy-duty version of the 2.20:1 ratio M21 four-speed. The later model 1971-'74 Muncie units are popular with drag racers, because the 32-spline output is stronger, and better absorbs the higher rpm required for ¼-mile cars.


Early units (1963-'70) had a 10-spline input shaft and a 27-spline output shaft configuration, while 1971-'74 used a 26-spline input shaft. The tail-shaft spline also changed to a 32-spline in 1971. The 27-spline output shafts are the same as the shafts used on many GM automatic transmissions, though the yokes are not always the same length. That is why it's a good idea to try to purchase the entire assembly, consisting of transmission, shifter, bellhousing and slip yoke, whenever possible. It will save you from having to hunt down the correct component pieces after you are into the installation.


Clutch discs, pressure plates, flywheels and, in some cases, starters will be different on some engine or body style applications. You can identify the various M20, M21 and M22 transmissions by the input shaft. GM marked these units in this way so they could be told apart on the production line during assembly and installation. Listed below is some spline-groove identification information:


  • 1963-'65 M20 2.56:1 ratio 10-spline 7/8-inch shaft; no grooves; 27-spline output shaft
  • 1966-'70 M20 2.52:1 ratio 10-spline 1-inch shaft; 2 grooves; 27-spline output shaft
  • 1971-'74 M20 2.52:1 ratio 26-spline 1-inch shaft; 2 grooves; 32-spline output shaft
  • 1963-'65 M21 2.20:1 ratio 10-spline 7/8-inch shaft; 1 groove; 27-spline output shaft
  • 1966-'70 M21 2.20:1 ratio 10-spline 1-inch shaft; 1 groove; 27-spline output shaft
  • 1971-'74 M21 2.20:1 ratio 26-spline 1-inch shaft; 1 groove; 32-spline output shaft
  • 1965-'70 M22 2.20:1 ratio 10-spline 1-inch shaft; no groove; 27-spline output shaft
  • 1971-'74 M22 2.20:1 ratio 26-spline 1-inch shaft; no groove; 32-spline output shaft
On 1969-and-newer Muncies, you can also find the shift ratio and unit designation as a single letter on the end of the build code:


  • A: M20 2.52 ratio (wide)
  • B: M21 2.20 ratio (close)
  • C: M22 2.20 ratio HD (close)
As with all conversions we feature in this column, we strongly recommend that you remove the side cover and inspect the transmission thoroughly before attempting to install it in your own car. Although the Muncie four-speeds have been out of production for over 30 years, just about any replacement parts you could need to rebuild these units are still readily available. Probably the best time to pull the cover and take a good look is before you actually buy one, as there is no way to tell how many miles are on a used transmission or how hard it was used until you start investigating the internal components.


Normally, cars with a rearend ratio numerically lower than 3.55:1 would not have come with the M22 close-ratio. The main case oil pans on the M20 and M21 did not have a fluid drain plug before 1970, whereas the M22 came with the drain plug in all years. Because aftermarket input shafts do not have the "grooves" designations, the only real way to know if you have the M22 ratio is to open the unit and check the cluster gear. If the helix angle is shallow (around 20 degrees), chances are you have the M22, or someone has upgraded to the M22 gears. M22 gears are also made of a higher-grade nickel alloy. The M20 and M21 cluster gears are cut at a 45-degree angle. The reduced gear angle of the M22 created a problem with noise (hence the name "rock-crusher"). Performance seekers decided to live with the noise when the benefits of increased durability from the gear-tooth angle outweighed the gravelly clatter. If you are not able to locate one of these units, and you really have your heart set on one, there are parts available from several Muncie parts specialists to upgrade your M20 or M21 into an M22.


When converting from an automatic transmission to a Muncie four-speed, GM vehicles with a Turbo 350 or Powerglide automatic can use an early 10-spline input shaft Muncie without having to modify the original driveshaft. Other GM automatic transmissions sharing the same 27-spline output are the Turbo 375, 200-4R and 700-R4. On GM Turbo 350, 200-4R and the 700-R4 automatics, the transmission mount is the same as the one used for the Muncie. The Turbo 400 uses a 32-spline output and the case is three inches longer, so it would be a bit more difficult to swap. When exchanging a Muncie for a TH400, the original yoke can be used on the 1971-'74 M20, M21 or M22--however, the driveshaft would have to be shortened.


Dimensions of the Muncie and many other transmissions are listed on the Hemmings Web site, in the Parts Locator section. These dimensions will help you decide if the Muncie is the right choice for your particular application.


Aftermarket shifters are still readily available for the Muncie, and we recommend that clutch components be replaced with new or rebuilt parts and flywheels should be machined smooth or replaced if any hard spots are found on the surface.


For non-GM cars, adapters are available from Bendtsen's, Hayes, Wilcap or your local speed shop that make the swap possible. Adapter kits allow the Muncie to be put behind many different engines. Here are some adapter kits and adapter bell housings that are available:


  • AMC V-8
  • Buick V-6
  • Buick "nailhead" V-8
  • Cadillac flathead V-8
  • Buick straight-8
  • Chrysler 1951-'53 Hemi
  • Chrysler 1954-'59 Hemi
  • Chrysler 1954-'59 Poly
  • Chrysler flathead 6
  • Ford FE V-8
  • Pontiac straight-8
  • Ford small-block and 351 Cleveland (6-bolt block mount)
  • Chrysler small-block
There are also transfer-case adapters available to allow you to use the Muncie in many GM and AMC four-wheel drive applications. These adapters are expensive--some are as much as an additional $700. But it is possible to put a Muncie in your Mustang or Barracuda as well as in your classic De Soto or Buick.


The reputation of the Muncie as being one of the stronger and more reliable four-speed choices makes it a logical choice for many GM muscle car and bracket racing applications when considering such a conversion. But it is also a drivetrain option that should be considered for many other non-GM vehicles as well. If you are having a difficult time locating one of these units, many Corvette suppliers have core units and remanufactured transmissions available. Several aftermarket transmission specialists are also manufacturing new Muncie four-speeds, although you can expect them to cost more than any used unit you locate.


Used units can be found at your local salvage yard for between $400 and $900 depending on year, ratio and condition. A recent ad in Hemmings Motor News priced a rebuilt M21 at $1,250 and new aftermarket M22s are selling for $1,400 to $2,500. This means that even with a $150 rebuilding kit, you can save a lot of money by getting your hands dirty and spending an afternoon searching through your local pick-a-part or swap meet and counting some splines and grooves.


This article originally appeared in the August, 2007 issue of Hemmings Muscle Machines.
 
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Those Bendtsen's & Wilcaps Engine to transmission adapters are made nice Grumpy but they are real expensive.
I have priced them out.
For my 1959 Pontiac 389 Bonneville engine project.
Had a Pontiac Superhydromatic 4-speed Auto.
Did not get the trans but I have the unique Auto trans bellhousing to mount the starter motor.
Plan is to mate it to a Turbo 400 trans.
Not an easy engine adapter to make yourself.

I like How the Mopar 883A Hemi 4-speeds are made.
Solid Brass shift forks.
Very strong trans. Stronger than Muncie 4.
They do take more effort to shift But a strong arm will do it.

Best bang for the $ is it for me.
M23 be nice.
But I can have a nice TH400 for much less & with a Race Trans Brake.

The 70 TA is worth so much current its not smart to modify to far.
Even E aluminum heads will kill the value.
RAIV power it stays.

Vette is open to modify.
Value on C4 still down as you know.
 
The Autobahn Racetrack in Joliet Illinois advertised on Facebook last night.
Its $100,000 to join the club.
The Owner was present.
He did not dispute that fact.
You can give them $4,000 for 1 year and have social class.
Gets you in to watch.
Race your own car no.

Its no wonder Street racing and drag racing is back.
 
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