do you practice shooting from field positions?

I was at the local range siting in a rifle a few weeks back, once I had the rifle sighted in so it consistently printed shots 3.5" above the target dot at 100 yards I moved off the bench and started shooting groups from a sitting and standing position.
the guy at the next bench on the line asked me what I was doing and stated that it was rather a waste of time trying to shoot groups from field positions because the groups always tended to be larger, and if you can,t consistently place shots accurately under field conditions, what you carry won,t matter much!
I smiled and asked him how many times he had managed to find a deer,hog, or elk while seated at a solid bench rest?

honestly I see this frequently, guys that can shoot those 1" bench rest groups but the same guys would have difficulty hitting a standing deer at 50 yards shooting off hand!
Ive shot most game, while sitting using a sling, with a 13"/27" harris bi-pod
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/222546/harris-s-25c-bipod-sling-swivel-stud-mount-13-1-2-to-27-black?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Shooting+-+Rests,+Bi-Pods+&+Benches&utm_content=222546&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Shooting+-+Rests,+Bi-Pods+&+Benches-_-Harris+Bipods-_-222546&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-YK985jm2QIVDksNCh0klghpEAQYAiABEgKZZvD_BwE
for many, sitting using a sling, no bi-pod, but several standing shooting offhand while using a sling.
I can generally hit most shots more than 70% in a coke can size target,shooting offhand with a sling out to about 100 yards,(3.5"-4" circle)but cut that group size in 1/2 sitting with a sling, and a bit better with a sling and bi-pod.
most of the game I've shot has been dropped at under 250 yards and mostly in thicker timber or narrow canyons, where ranges are generally not excessive
well heres a news flash! theres a huge lack of bench rests in ELK canyons, and deer woods ,Especially any set up where you see ELK, or deer.
this fact never seems to sink in..with the bench rest crowd...the fact is you don,t really need to shoot those impressive 1" groups, but its really helpful, in the field, if you can shoot 2'- 3"-4" or tighter groups at 100 yards from a sitting or standing position
When I think back over 43 plus years of hunting and the vast majority of the game Ive shot has been from sitting or standing positions, a few from the prone position, and by far most from ranges under 250 yards, and ID bet 80% at under 150 yards
read the links and sub links
Id remind anyone looking to purchase an accurate dependable hunting rifle that youll want high quality optics and rock solid scope mounts, the best rifle available will be seriously hampered if its not matched to clear and solidly consistent optics!
one of the most common failures I've seen over the decades was not related to the basic rifle function (although that did on occasion happen) but much more commonly loose scope mounts or cheap optics that failed to retain zero or fogged.
for most hunting you don,t need some huge high magnification scope , what you need is decent quality and rock solid dependability.
the newer LEOPOLD and NIKON 30mm tube size scopes are mostly an excellent value for the price.
yes theres hundreds of options, but if your looking for a good value Id suggest you want to select one with top quality optics for the price, a 30mm tube and 50mm front lens in a well known respected brand is a good start point for good low light transmission and clear target,vision. something similar to these linked below would provide an excellent match to a deer or elk rifle to be used for precise shot placement with most reasonable caliber elk/deer rifles, set on the lowest setting they allow you to make very rapid and accurate shots, if you have the time to get a solid field position, jack the magnification up as required.
all the magazines will tell you you'll want a rifle that has long range and flat trajectory, and yeah, thats certainly no
handicap, but in 50 years of hunting elk I can only think of two or three times a BLR in caliber 450 marlin, would not have been perfectly acceptable, simply because you seldom see game at over 200 yards and ranges under 100 yards are common

much of the area looks similar too these pictures I found posted elseware

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362146064/leupold-vx-r-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-3-9x-50mm-matte

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...aff-7-rifle-scope-30mm-tube-25-10x-50mm-matte

https://www.opticsplanet.com/v/12325-browning-blr-scout-style-mount.html

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/519551/weaver-6-hole-weaver-style-rings-matte?utm_medium=shopping&utm_source=google&utm_campaign=Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories&utm_content=519551&cm_mmc=pf_ci_google-_-Optics - Scope Rings, Bases, Mounting & Accessories-_-Weaver-_-519551&gclid=EAIaIQobChMIq6X4zMqA2QIV2brACh0otQ2aEAQYAiABEgIgfPD_BwE

https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/917995/weaver-surethread-adhesive-10-ml



http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hat-are-you-looking-for-in-an-elk-rifle.2368/
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=4560&p=12166#p12166

viewtopic.php?f=92&t=1275

Ok, your still hunting thru some aspen and a nice bull bolts from cover your within 50-70 yards and you have 2-4 seconds to make a shot, thats all too common, where I hunt,rifles like these,that are easily handled tend to be far easier to hit with when you must make a shot in seconds or miss the opportunity,its been decades since any member of out elk hunt club has killed any elk at over 250-300 yards, and the last time we actually took the effort to calculate the average distance, it was in the high 80-90 yard range , thats probably got a great deal to do with the gradual shift from the 7mm and 300 mags many of the guys started with,to calibers like 358 win, 35 whelen, 45/70 and 450 marlin, and shorter carbine length weapons that has slowly taken place.
yes a good many guys started with a 30/06 and 180 grain-200 grain and 220 grain bullets and many of the older guys have stuck with that combo, and at least in our group the remington pump action 30/06 and 35 whelen, and BLR in 30/06 and 450 marlin and 358 win are very common.
my personal average is probably in the 70 yard range with several shot at under 35 yards
I usually have my 35 whelen, and 450 marlin rifles along, sometimes my 375 H&H carbine,

A 35 whelen slide action Remington with peep sights or a 2x/7x Leopold compact scope is a very popular choice with my friends

MY 375 H&H sakos claimed its share of ELK, and while a great many people may not think a 375H&H carbine is ideal, its certainly worked rather consistently well.
many people prefer the browning BLR or remington slide actions, rather than a bolt action as they feel that they can get off a second or their shot quicker, and while thats true technically the difference in time is meaningless as the first shot hitting counts in more than 80% of the cases, and youll rarely have a problem if that first shot from a fairly powerful rifle hits the vitals.

the 450 marlin caliber BLR is fast becoming my favorite but for decades I used a BLR in 358 win as my back-up camp rifle and had a friend hunt elk successfully with a 358 win BLR for decades,
add a 2.5X-4x Leopold or nikon scope and load that 450 marlin with a 405 grain remington over 50 grains of imr 3031 or a 358 win BLR with a 250 grain speer bullet over 44 grains of IMR 4064, and it certainly is accurate, and more than powerful enough to drop elk out at 200-250 yards



ELK ARE NOT STUPID, as soon as they detect hunters they move to the least accessible areas with the thickest cover , and that usually means youll spend a great deal more time slowly and carefully sneaking thru timber than shooting across open fields like those magazine article pictures taken of elk in parks like yellow-stone suggest.

the speed you can accurately make a first shot hit exactly where you intend it too, will depend on several factors like the scope or sights your using ,the range to the target , terrain and cover in some cases and how well the stock actually fits you.
I've found shooting SKEET , starting with a shotgun held with the butt near your belt ,with the shotgun in your hands tends to help you get a feel for making faster rifle shots in the field.
a 2x-4x wide view scope with good clear optics helps and a good deal of practice with your selected weapon of choice and familiarity with it helps immensely.
theres no way I can predict what stock length of pull and drop in butt angle etc. will fit you best. personally I find many factory stocks too short until a 1.25" THICK RECOIL PAD, gets the length up near 14" but your going to find youll require a different stock in most cases as I'm 6'3" and 260lbs
I suppose a great deal depends on the area you hunt and the guys you hunt with and or course what your hunting!
Ive been mostly hunting elk and mule deer,
when I started out elk hunting, theres zero question the 30/06 was the gold standard in our camp,but for several years in the 1980s the 7mm rem mag and 300 win mag had a strong following, but over the last 10-12 years I see more guys with the 35 whelen , 358 win and 30/06 than anything else Ive used a 340wby and a 375 H&H, mostly because I own and completely trust them, and see zero reason to change.
what has changed, is that I don,t hear story's of guys making long distance shots, as if its some huge accomplishment, but rather story,s of off hand shots made from under 30- 50 yards , with pride in getting in close first and placing the shot precisely
I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.


while earlier in the thread,and in other threads, Ive stated Ive used a SAKO 375 H&H carbine hunting thick timber hunting elk.

well thats a good observation
Ive used BOTH rifles and the 375 H&H sako manlicher carbine similar too these pictures

my late hunting partner vastly preferred the 358 win BLR
(mostly Id bet because the 358 win was available when he started hunting elk and the 450 marlin only came out after he passed on)
well Ive watched a great many guys hunt, the thicker timber slopes where ranges tend to be well under 100 yards and you certainly don,t want any game you shot running any distance,
heavy bullets in the 30 caliber and larger in the 180 grain or heavier range work rather well.
and you certainly are unlikely too, get your choice in distance or the games stance or choice of shot angle.
many prefer those larger bore Marlin and browning lever actions, as you can get a very rapid second shot.
two factors come to mind here
(1) few guys I know have ever needed a rapid second shot
(2) even fewer have developed the well practiced skill of rapidly working a bolt action while your in recoil,
from the first shot and not removing the rifle stock off your shoulder.
I find most guys are faster making a follow up shot or at least having that second cartridge re-chambered with a lever action,
and while that might seem to be an advantage, once you have developed the knack of using a bolt gun with out removing it from the shoulder,
while working the bolt, I feel the advantage is negligible if it exists... especially when I rarely see a second shot from either rifle is required.
like I stated, pick what YOUR familiar with and COMFORTABLE useing....your un-likely to make a bad choice.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...nt-perspective-on-ideal-hunting-rifles.11928/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/working-a-bolt-action-rifle.15007/

https://www.fieldandstream.com/12-best-rifle-cartridges-for-elk-hunting#page-13

Jack stopped by for a few minutes today to B.S. he was down this way , he recently moved up near Orlando, into a more rural area.
If you remember Jack was a SWAT sniper for several decades, so I got to harass him on hunting trips at times, if he missed shots, and of course the reverse was also potentially true,
( I had the good luck to never miss when he was watching)
I was asking him about the local shooting ranges in his new area, and he was telling me about those and some of the guys he had recently met, and as usually the majority thought they were ALL TO A MAN, excellent shots,
we both had a good laugh over that,
its not that we are great, shots ,
we are both well above average shots,
but thats hardly saying much,
as most people are pathetic shots if forced to shoot any place but on a bench rest at a shooting range where they get to practice,from,
simply because, if your only practice is done off a concrete bench rest, at the local range , they get the absurd idea, that if they could keep a couple shoots within an inch or so, of the paper targets center, at 100 yards that most ranges are set up at, that under those conditions they are great shots, and will continue to be so out in the field. but like I proved to him decades ago,


things change rather drastically when you change the parameters and force them to shoot, at 200 or 300 yard targets of deer from a seated position with a 3" orange dot placed on the reverse side where its used to score hit placement where they can't see it
pasted to the reverse side of the accurate deer picture

since the rifleman can't see the dot the exact aim point is not as precise
and thus the shooter must have experience hunting to score well

the orange dots placed where the deers heart should be,but on the reverse side of the target and only used to score accuracy of bullet impact as the scored target center, and give them only 30 seconds to make 2 shots, many, maybe even most of them, can't place two shots within 12 inches of the intended impact point under that condition, then, you issue them a challenge, you let them stand at the fifty yard line and sprint back to the firing line, get seated have a buddy hand them , what they think is their loaded rifle because they are not allowed to run with a loaded weapon on the range, their buddy hands them, their un-loaded rifle, they think is loaded , and ask them too very carefully squeeze of a shot at that the 200 yard target and if they miss by more than 6" they owe you $20 watch them FLINCH and get it on the cell phone video close up so they can't deny it later, he had several it was a grin!






[

I was talking with Frank, who now has moved to OK , from CO. early in the year this last year , on the phone, he was telling me about a hunt he went on..
hes been using a 308 win caliber BLR for decades in colorado to hunt deer and Elk,
with a rather standard ,hand-load, using a 200 grain speer bullet that we found that works very well. 308 loaded with 200 grain speer bullets over 44 grains of WW760 and a 215 fed primer.



Frank got invited on an private ranch ,antelope hunt, and the only rifle and ammo he had was the same old BLR and several boxes of that ammo. he was told this was totally not adequate gear, yet that being all that he had easily available he took it and figured he would just have to pass up long range shots.
the funny deal here was that Frank got his first antelope,
(for you eastern whitetail hunters who may never see one)

on that hunt and his buddies now think hes some great shot! the first legal buck antelope he saw was at about 250 yards .
Frank held where I told him, too for decades, by trusting the business size laminated cards trajectory info, taped to his rifle stock, that shows the bullet trajectory,as he had no previous experience shooting past about 130 yards, so his shot would be based on the chart taped to his carbines stock , that showed in-spite of the fact, it appeared to be out of range, he would be fine ,with the rifle and ammo he was all too familiar with. yet the chart showed it was actually well in, range despite Franks impression that at about 250 yards , the range was by far the longest range shot he had ever attempted, the antelope never noticed, it dropped as if hit by lightning.
seems that the totally inadequate 308 win is fully capable even when loaded for elk of dropping antelope.
a great many people just don,t realize how far 250 yards actually is, and think that a target at that range is far further that it is when out in the field

leathality, the water bucket analogy

I heard rifle leathality explained once this way

think of your big game target for the purpose of explaining your choice in a rifle selection,
as a large 5 gallon steel bucket for deer, a 10 gallon steel trash can for elk or moose,
and perhaps a 40 gallon steel drum for large African game like elephant.
the games life force, and its ability to function after bullet impact can be thought of as the remaining water the containers filled with.
your object, as a responsible and ethical hunter is to drain the water from the container as rapidly as possible
now from a purely physics stand point punching a hole in the container will tend to drain some or most of the liquid contents.
but merely draining part of the contents can be considered a WOUNDING and NOT necessarily 100% dependable shot,
so your shot placement on the containers surface DOES mater a great deal.
small caliber high velocity projectiles may cause some rather significant percentage of the fluid volume to splash out instantly ,
especially on the smaller container sizes, but they also tend to leave a single entrance hole to drain the remaining fluids.
keep in mind the sizes of the containers in this analogy.
medium calibers at lower velocities may punch a hole in both the entrance and exit surfaces,
but may not cause a great deal of water to be splashed out over the top on bullet impact.
yet the presents of two drain holes if properly located will drain the contents dependably.
medium calibers at higher velocities may punch a hole in both the entrance and exit surfaces,
And may cause a great deal of water to be splashed out over the top on bullet impact.
yet the presents of two drain holes if properly located will still drain the contents dependably,
thus at least in theory draining the contents slightly faster,
heavy calibers will generally produce both an effective entrance , impact and exit drain hole,
but think about the shot placement carefully, in this analogy.
no matter what caliber is used if the bullet impacts the upper 1/2 of the container its unlikely to be fully drained.
granted this concept is overly simplified but it may help you understand why larger calibers tend to work.
Id also point out that years of experience have taught me that even ideal shot placement is rarely instantly effective,
if your targets still moving keep accurately placing shots, and know your games anatomy


related
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ecent-carbine-on-an-elk-hunt.9932/#post-38068

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...t-mass-and-caliber-how-much-is-required.4607/

I had several of the old geezers I used too hunt elk with rather regularly call me up and we scheduled a common time to meet at one of the local out-door ranges,and then go and get a few beers at a local bar an B.S. about the results of the range shooting session, and potential up-coming hunting season options.
now I'll be the first guy to admit I personally am not a great shot, but I do regularly practice shooting from field positions at the local range at 100 and 200 yards.
now I bring that up here to point out that I've been rather successful and I can generally place my first shot in a 6" paper plate at 200 yards ,
(intended to mimic an elks vital chest area target zone)and
while thats hardly,exceptional skill level,
it sure seems to be significantly better than what I see generally , from most of the guys at the local range.
if you can consistently hit an empty coke or 12 oz beer can, you fill with sand too give it some weight, you stuck on top of a fence post from 100 yards out, on your first shot, from a sitting position, or standing and leaning against a tree to aid stability, and look forward to betting $20 you,ll knock the can into next week with your elk rifle, on that first shot connecting,with your buddies, your far above average from what I see.
yes theres always a few guys that
( conveniently always forgot to bring their good rifle)
who know everything about what YOUR doing wrong,
most of them can,t hit a coke can at a 100 yards,
shooting off hand if you pay them.
I've always been amazed at the guys that can put three shots in a quart off the bench rest at 100 yards that assume that now that the rifle can do that that THEY CAN shooting from field positions , many could not consistently hit a 5 gallon bucket at 200 yards shooting off hand or even from a sitting position.

even most of these older experienced guys seemed to be amazed at how difficult it was for them to place a couple rapid and consistent shots on a 6" white paper plate at 200 yards at the local range
, once they were dragged off the bench rest and forced to shoot from field positions like off hand, sitting or kneeling .
(youll almost never get too shoot from the prone position, in the field due to brush, grass etc.)
, one guy suggested it would be easier if I placed a 2" orange dot in the center of the plate.......I grinned and asked how many elk hes seen, running around in the field,... with a 2" orange dot over the upper heart area?
and YES if you have a bi-pod and a good rifle sling on your hunting rifle you can use it.
(in fact not having those as additional equipment hurts your potential accuracy in my opinion) and you damn sure need a quality scope
Ive found this one to be very useful
https://ads.midwayusa.com/product/2...od-sling-swivel-stud-mount-13-1-2-to-27-black
Ive used a 340 wby and 375 H&H on most ELK HUNTS

340 wby 250 grain hornady at 2875 fps
375H&H, 300 grain hornady at 2600 fps
yes its a heavy combo, but its exceptionally accurate and dependable and I cover a good deal of ground,
but I don,t move very fast and I glass the areas with binoculars I hunt very carefully,
knowing that If I see any elk at ranges under about 450 yards its very likely I will,
be able to shoot and hit where I intend too,
if the chance is there for the several seconds, it takes to get into a field position.
now I have zero doubt many guys can shoot impressive groups off a bench rest,
but in the field ,
bench rests are exceptionally rare in the correct locations when needed down in some remote Colorado or Idaho canyon.
so having that skill set of impressive bench rest groups tends to be rather useless except for zeroing in the rifle scope to hit where you point!
I generally try to strike up a bit of a competition and its not at all uncommon,
to bet $5 -$10 on who can shoot 3 shots against a stop watch in under 30 seconds,
at a 6" paper plate,
set out at 200 yards from a sitting position, many guys worry about making 500-700 yard shots, thats insane in my opinion for two reasons, first Ive rarely seen elk out in the open at ranges exceeding 300 yards once hunting starts, and second, I'd bet a great deal of money the vast majority of elk that were supposedly shot out past 500 yards would be well short of that if a measuring tape was handy to verify the true distance.
,


I may be wrong, but I've always assumed that most ethical and experienced, hunters will use and exercise,
reasonable judgement, before making a shot and only shoot under conditions they feel confident in making the shot well,
and have a respect for game, and have a solid grasp on their personal limitations.
I have also noticed that a good many people seem to think the rifles recoil level can be objectionable and that it effects their accuracy.
obviously thats a factor each of us has to deal with and tolerance differs wildly.
obviously no one can control others judgment, but felt recoil can be significantly reduced
use of a PAST recoil shoulder pad , a rifle stock recoil pad, and proper use of a sling and bi-pod goes a long way toward reducing the potential problem.

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0094310010

• 

HB25CS 25C Model S -13.5-27" Swivel Bipod
no thats not my rifle but its damn near its clone
with you using your big game rifle, set up like it will be while you hunt.
and the winner of these short test contests,
being the one who takes the least time to shoot three shots that all hit the paper plate,
and of course the smallest center too center spread takes the prize if the time frame is similar,
and if your within 1-2 seconds its counted as even.
but surprisingly most guys can,t seem to even consistently place three shots anywhere on a 6" paper plate at 200 yards, in under 30 seconds ,let alone the 6-8 seconds MAX your likely to have to place two accurate shots at any elk.
(which is an exceptionally generous time frame if its meant to duplicate hunting conditions)
let alone shoot impressively tight groups practice shooting from a commonly used seated field position.
in my opinion if you can,t place 2 out of 3 shots in a 6" paper plate in under 15 seconds at any given range,
you need to practice a good deal more or reduce the range until you can consistently do so,
and limit your shots on game, in the field, to about that range.
I've made several kills on elk that my friends would swear were made at 400-500 yards .... most were made at well under 300 yards if you paced it off!

I sight all my big game rifles in so you aim at the yellow dot and the bullet impacts cover the red dot

anytime you feel youve become a great shot, try to place two rapid shots in a 2" dot from a rapidly acquired field position, after walking the 100 yards back to your shooting location from the target after a brisk walk in under 10 seconds, from 100 yards
Ive done it occasionally tried it hundreds of times, it takes constant repetition to do well.


related info


http://www.wikihow.com/Snipe-or-Be-a-Marksman-With-a-Rifle

http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2014/11/23/uncommon-shooting-tips-for-beginners/

http://www.wideopenspaces.com/8-military-surplus-guns-every-shooter-pics/

http://www.outdoorlife.com/blogs/gun-shots/2012/08/shooting-tips-8-mistakes-rob-rifle-accuracy

I can tell you that I've found shot placement ,
and the projectile you select ,
is far more critical than the info stamped on the brass case heads,.
its your physical condition, your ability to spend the time and effort,
to hunt as long and as hard as required, your persistence,
your ability to get into range and place your shots precisely that the key.
I've spent a respectable amount of time hunting deer and elk,
I've used a,
30/06,(190 grain)
270 win,(150 grain
35 whelen,(250 grain)
338 win,(225 grain)
45/70,(405 grain)
340 wby,(250 grain)
358 win (250 grain)
375 H&H,(270 grain)
and a 458 win,(405 grain)
on several hunts.
if you place your shots well,
know the games anatomy ,
and use reasonably heavy for caliber bullets...
.they all worked, and all produced lethal wounds,
and dead deer/ and elk.
you can spend a good deal of time and effort sorting out, or worrying about your rifle and ammo,
but from the results I've seen, if you just select the most accurate and largest caliber rifle,
and select,decent ammo, that your confident in, using
that you feel comfortable with, and understand the games anatomy you'll do reasonably well.
personally I think the two best are the 340 wby and the 375 H&H, but they have all worked.
running stairs frequently with a 40 lb back pack,
and practice at the local range , shooting from field positions ,
not shooting off the bench rest ,
will do you a lot more good than worrying about whats stamped on those brass cartridge cases

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-feet-on-building-public-rifle-range.13492/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/printable-targets-and-sighting-in.4560/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hat-are-you-looking-for-in-an-elk-rifle.2368/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/selecting-a-decent-hunting-scope.13506/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/why-a-340-wheatherby-and-375-h-h.12979/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/are-you-thinking-thru-your-rifle-choice.7661/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-a-good-all-around-elk-mule-deer-rifle.12948/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...w-thoughts-related-to-hunting-trips-etc.9487/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-far-away-can-i-shoot.10594/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/scopes.8471/

You know Grumpy I never thought about it but I think every deer that I've ever killed has been from a sitting position at least the last 4 because its hard to stand up in my tree stand but I know I've used the rail of the stand as a rest