Jack stopped over last night, and we got to discussing several old trips out west we made and he reminded me of one hunt I thought you guys might want to read about.
It was a trip we made back in the early 1990s time frame, we drove out to the area north of GYPSUM Colorado
and we had both deer and elk tags,that year, there was 6 guys on that trip that year, we were sharing travel expenses ,as it was both cheaper and allowed us to carry a bit more gear in two trucks, making the drive from Florida to Colorado.
we used both my 1989 F350 crew cab,dually truck
MY truck looked similar to this but I had a 3" lift kit bigger tires and snow chains
and franks 1980 bronco, we had driven strait thru from florida in 4-5 hour shifts driving around the clock, and made the trip in about 45 hours (its roughly 2350 miles, one way, from the location of my then current house to the area we camp.
We arrived at about 4PM, the night before opening day, we parked both trucks about a couple hundred yards back into a group of conifers off a limited use logging road, and were dead tired so we just pitched the main 6 man tent we had, threw out the majority of the camping gear either inside the pass seats or back of franks truck and two guys decided to sleep in the truck bed of my f350 (which had a topper shell)
we woke up with the wind-up alarm clock at about 6 AM only to find we had about 1-too-2 feet of snow on the ground and in,under,around and over everything,it was deepest mostly in drifts where the wind had packed it, the two trucks looked like bumps in the land scape, the trucks were so totally covered that you could not tell it was a truck or just a large rock, due to the fact of drifted snow.
HERES A FEW PICTURES I FOUND ON THE NET TO GIVE YOU SOME IDEA
the snow was deep enough that it seemed to have limited traffic up the logging road we had used, which was rather unusually for an opening day elk hunt.
there had been a few 4x4 trucks with chains up the logging road but not near the traffic most opening days seem to bring to the remote area we hunt1.
with conditions like that you very quickly learn to appreciate a good sleeping bag and insulated pad under it to make staying warm far less difficult and you also find out that getting out of the bag in the middle of the night , in a snow storm, to take a quick leak, due to aging bladder is a P.I.T.A. but mandatory.
one of the first things I learned during out of state elk hunts was the value of a good sleeping bag rated at -10 degrees and an insulated pad, to keep your butt off the cold ground.
being obsessed with hunting ELK and this being opening day we fixed a quick cold breakfast of pop-tarts and either gator aid we kept in the cabin of the ford dually truck, or beer (the water was almost all solid ice ,in the canteens and the temperature gauge said it was about 25F-27F degrees, and having gotten a rather late start we didn,t want to start the coleman stove to make coffee..
we got our selves set up, packed and decided to look over the area,on foot, it was still dark, and the wind made things feel much colder than it actually was.
we decided to put the equipment and maps, we needed in day/packs and hunt in two three man groups in the area near the trucks which were parked a few hundred yards off the main logging road access to the area, the scenery was impressive , mostly snow covered conifers , with leafless aspen, in rolling meadows that dropped off into deep side canyons.
that first day we saw a great deal of tracks in the snow in many areas mostly indicating the ELK and mule deer were headed down slope into several of the smaller canyons, but until the snow melted off we decided too stay put, rather than risk travel.
many guys would have felt trapped or panicked but having been thru this, upper elevation snow pack deal, several times before, seeing early snows, we were fairly sure that the majority of the snow would melt over the next few days so we decided to use the snow to help locate game.
it might be surprising but in two days the snow had mostly melted leaving 6"-10" in many areas , a bit more in shaded areas,and north facing slopes and far less in many areas.
we eventually located the elk because tracks and animals were very easy to see, and it became obvious that one particular canyon held a good population.
we decided to hunt as a group on the 4th day , each of us walking out, or having franks 4x4 bronco drop us off along the logging road that followed the upper edge of the canyon., to points about 1/4 mile apart.
JACK and I were going to concentrate on a steeper section of the canyons upper drainage while the other four guys would by choice hunt the lower and less steep areas lower in the drainage where travel on slippery slopes was a bit easier, we got started out before dawn and by the time it was barely light enough to see your hands in the limited lighting and light snow fall, we found our self's about 3/4 miles from the trucks parked on the upper logging road access and down in a rather thick patch of conifers. Jack had his 458 win caliber Ruger #1 single shot ,that he purchased dirt cheap, barely used, mostly due to its designed ability to use cast bullets and the great deal he got on it because the previous owner had sold it, after a few shots he had tried. due to a badly bruised shoulder.
use of a properly employed sling and a good shoulder pad sewn into a shooting vest helped a great deal.
I was carrying my 358 win BLR loaded with 250 grain speer bullets and 44 grains of IMR 4064 with a 215 federal primer as we felt the ranges would be short.
we both had Leopold 4x scopes.
at about 9 AM we found a large rock outcrop on our side of the canyon with several large fallen trees on a steep slope ,near a abrupt drop-off , where a minor stream had cut a deep side mini groove , several hundred yards long and over a 100 feet deep along most of its length in the main canyon walls slope, making the area totally impossible for any thing to travel directly down the main canyon slope on our side from our location without either a long detour up or down slope to avoid the cliff face we were located above.
thus we had located and were watching over a natural funnel in the areas travel options for any game ,to force any game in the area to travel past us in a rather predictable route.
after sitting on what was an almost ideal location for about 2 hours both JACK and I had seen several dozen mule deer and a few cow elk, travel past us, in the snow covered slope below or location, but saw nothing worth shooting.
At about 11:45 AM, were were getting both hungry and bored so I suggested we eat a few pop-tarts while we waited and continued to scan the area, and at that point I guess we were not paying full attention because did not see several elk until they were at least 30 yards out from some conifers down the slope at about 300 yards out, from our location.
Jack said he thought the last elk , in the group, was a good legal four point bull, but 300 plus yards was a bit longer range than he was hoping too shoot at, game from and the 20-30 degree down,slope angle,also might be a problem, we watched intently and luckily the small group of elk ,traveled in an angled diagonally up slope , path,slowly lowering the range, but if they continued on their course they would enter a second grove of conifers at about 200 yards from our location, which would allow them to pass out of sight.
jack was loaded with a hard cast bullet from nei molds,we had selected to hopefully flatten his trajectory,it was pushed to about 2000fps with his hand loaded ammo. hand loads that we had purchased the components for, and loaded months before the hunt, and Jack had sighted in to hit 3.5' high at 100 yards ,the cast slugs were loaded over a stiff load of 60 grains of reloader 7 powder, and a 215 federal primer, this would place his 200 yard point of impact at near 200 yards , or dead on the cross hairs on level ground at near sea level where we sighted the rifle in, , but require he hold a bit low shooting down slope at that angle, and at the current 10,000 feet altitude.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
jack used his back-pack frame as a rifle rest , sitting in front of him a bit down slope from his sitting position,and as the bull got to the edge of the conifers , nearer too us,and just before he would go into cover once more, jack squeezed off a shot, it hit a bit high,with an audible WHACK! and instantly dropped the bull with a impact point on the elk , a bit higher than intended but instantly effective, spine shattering shot, jack also cussed , at the shot as he had gotten a bad cut over his eye brow, from getting too close to the scope during the rifles recoil, because he was not holding the rifle correctly and was thinking more about the elk and his rifles shot placement than the shots, resulting recoil,and where his forehead was, which caused the resulting damage, inflicted on jacks eye brow. It took us a bit of time too stop bleeding, but I had a few band aids and some super glue in a small first aid kit in my back pack, so after making sure Jack was not seriously, hurt,by the scopes impact with his eye brow,and making the mandatory jokes about having no harm done to his hard head, and the most likely only damage to the scope, being hurt we walked down slope too look at Jack,s second ever ELK.
it took use several trips with everyone in camp helping to process and get Jacks elk back into the coolers in the back of the trucks , and that year that was the only ELK anyone got, but we did get several more mule deer in the next several days.
if you think about this hunt and several others, I written about in the past, you'll quickly realize that having experience, locating, and recognizing a good area with fairly abundant game, and having located a natural terrain feature that funneled game movement and limited the games choices of routes they could use, too travel, and having the experience recognizing those features in the terrain, when they are located, helped provide a great opportunity to be successful.
yes theres some luck involved , but theres a good deal of logic and experience , think about a larger area where elk live, is a bit like looking over a large shopping complex, if you goal was to be looking to take pictures of shoppers ,vs hunting game, if that was your goal,you would set up near a food court or mall entrance, to increase your chances of seeing increased foot traffic, and your far more likely to have opportunities in those locations than if you set up out on the far edge of the parking lot or near some perimeter store.
yes think about it! about 80% of any mall is parking lot surface, area, vs food court or mall entrance points , and while you would realize that instantly in a mall you won,t see the correlation in a vast open hunting area without having some experience, and that experience allows you to locate the more heavily traveled areas and know what your looking for, and what features in the landscape tend to funnel game travel routes , or draw game to a specific area..
its the ability to recognize these terrain feature that limit and funnel game travel that increases your odds.
the absurdity in owning a 458 win or 458 LOTT, here in the lower 48 states, would be related to shooting dozens of full power loads that cost $6-$12 each, once you that the effort to reload too a much more comfortable recoil level and find a very accurate load matching your rifle, and reduce the cost to well under 70 cents a shot (easily done) using cast bullets that can be every bit as accurate as the factory ammo,many people see the ownership of a big bore rifle differently, it puts owning and using a 458 win or 458 LOTT, rifle in a whole lot more user and wallet friendly role, in your list of rifles, you grab going to the range or out hunting. yes the rifles do tend to be a bit heavy , but two of my friends have used 458 win rifles with reduced cast bullet loads successfully on Elk and one guy prefers a mild load with a 355 grain cast bullet at about 1400 fps for hogs and deer here in Florida.
while I'd agree that few people would want to use full power factory ammo all that often, the 458 win and 458 Lott can rather easily be used at reduced power levels
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=
viewtopic.php?f=92&t=4672&p=37272&hilit=shoulder+recoil#p37272
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=4560&p=25717&hilit=sling#p25717
I own a 458 lott cz, once I lapped in the bolt lugs it was glass smooth and very accurate, I use mostly hard cast gas check bullets sized .459
keep in mind shorter and lighter weight gas check bullets can be very accurate at low and medium velocities, longer bullets tend to need to be pushed faster before they become as accurate from my experience.
buy several different height,front site blades (EASILY SWAPPED) as different weights tend to require different blade height if you use the iron sights at 100 yard targets,
the 405 remington jacketed bullet expands well at 1800 fps-1900 fps easily reached with reduced velocity lower pressure level, loads in the 458 win and 458 lott. and hotter handloads in the 450 marlin blr
obviously no deer or elk will walk from a well placed hit from any of the three in that power range and certainly the case head stamp is not critical, it its lethality.
the two larger cases handle the 450-500 grain hard cast gas check bullets well if pushed to the 1900 fps-2000 fps range,
powders like imr 3031, rl7, h 4895 and ww748 can all be effective
but after using these rifles for decades I have to point out any of the three are devastatingly effective on any game at under 200 yards in heavy timber and even a 45/70 loaded with a hard cast bullet at 1700 fps zips through and exits an elks shoulder in most case's.
https://www.loaddata.com/Cartridge/4...Manual-14/4733Have you ever tried shooting .458 Win Mag out of the CZ? I know you're supposed to be able to shoot both in the Lott.
yes I have,shot hundreds of cartridges while at the range and dozens hunting hogs and deer and even elk, and in my personal experience, in my personal CZ 458 lott, the shorter 458 win case feeds and functions fine but its not as accurate , now the difference in my case might be a 2" 100 yard 458 lott group vs a 458 win shooting 3.3" 100 yard groups off a bench rest, certainly no effective difference in minute off elephant or charging lion at typical hunting ranges. from what I read, but I have spent a good deal of time in thick timber hunting elk, with 458 caliber rifles,, that being stated I use my remington 458 rifle if I want to shoot the 458 win ammo.
to be fair almost all the ammo I load and shoot is loaded to velocity levels lower than max potential like 540 hard cast, bullets, at about 1900 fps and 350 hard cast loaded to about 2200 fps in the 458 lott, or remington 405 jacketed at about 2200 fps in the 458 lott.
I have developed a real respect for the rifles accuracy but you need to use a decent sling and a vest with a past recoil shield to feel reasonably comfortable shooting either rifle off hand or from a bench rest and theres no way Id suggest you shoot either rifle shooting prone.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/699899/past-super-mag-plus-recoil-pad-shield-ambidextrous
https://byallen.com/product/quick-adjusting-rifle-sling/
In fact one of the big benefits of the 45 caliber rifles is that the 45/70, 450 marlin,458 win, and 458 LOTT, can all be loaded from mild almost hand-gun levels duplicating a 45 acp-454 cassul up to the max pressure and velocity levels the cartridges are capable of handling
heres a REMINGTON CUSTOM SHOP 458 WIN rifle pictured I found posted, very similar to mine
this versatility, (if your a skilled hand loader) will allow you to hunt rabbits to anything in north America with a 45/70,450 marlin,458 win, and 458 LOTT, and while it may not be everyone's idea of the ideal compromise, in selecting a rifle caliber it has a great deal of potential as a 45/70, 450 marlin , or 458 win etc can be hand loaded to provide very good performance as a deer or elk hunting tool yet be down loaded to a pleasant plinker and in all cases dirt cheap cast projectiles can be used with very satisfactory results.
It was a trip we made back in the early 1990s time frame, we drove out to the area north of GYPSUM Colorado
and we had both deer and elk tags,that year, there was 6 guys on that trip that year, we were sharing travel expenses ,as it was both cheaper and allowed us to carry a bit more gear in two trucks, making the drive from Florida to Colorado.
we used both my 1989 F350 crew cab,dually truck
MY truck looked similar to this but I had a 3" lift kit bigger tires and snow chains
and franks 1980 bronco, we had driven strait thru from florida in 4-5 hour shifts driving around the clock, and made the trip in about 45 hours (its roughly 2350 miles, one way, from the location of my then current house to the area we camp.
We arrived at about 4PM, the night before opening day, we parked both trucks about a couple hundred yards back into a group of conifers off a limited use logging road, and were dead tired so we just pitched the main 6 man tent we had, threw out the majority of the camping gear either inside the pass seats or back of franks truck and two guys decided to sleep in the truck bed of my f350 (which had a topper shell)
we woke up with the wind-up alarm clock at about 6 AM only to find we had about 1-too-2 feet of snow on the ground and in,under,around and over everything,it was deepest mostly in drifts where the wind had packed it, the two trucks looked like bumps in the land scape, the trucks were so totally covered that you could not tell it was a truck or just a large rock, due to the fact of drifted snow.
HERES A FEW PICTURES I FOUND ON THE NET TO GIVE YOU SOME IDEA
the snow was deep enough that it seemed to have limited traffic up the logging road we had used, which was rather unusually for an opening day elk hunt.
there had been a few 4x4 trucks with chains up the logging road but not near the traffic most opening days seem to bring to the remote area we hunt1.
with conditions like that you very quickly learn to appreciate a good sleeping bag and insulated pad under it to make staying warm far less difficult and you also find out that getting out of the bag in the middle of the night , in a snow storm, to take a quick leak, due to aging bladder is a P.I.T.A. but mandatory.
one of the first things I learned during out of state elk hunts was the value of a good sleeping bag rated at -10 degrees and an insulated pad, to keep your butt off the cold ground.
being obsessed with hunting ELK and this being opening day we fixed a quick cold breakfast of pop-tarts and either gator aid we kept in the cabin of the ford dually truck, or beer (the water was almost all solid ice ,in the canteens and the temperature gauge said it was about 25F-27F degrees, and having gotten a rather late start we didn,t want to start the coleman stove to make coffee..
we got our selves set up, packed and decided to look over the area,on foot, it was still dark, and the wind made things feel much colder than it actually was.
we decided to put the equipment and maps, we needed in day/packs and hunt in two three man groups in the area near the trucks which were parked a few hundred yards off the main logging road access to the area, the scenery was impressive , mostly snow covered conifers , with leafless aspen, in rolling meadows that dropped off into deep side canyons.
that first day we saw a great deal of tracks in the snow in many areas mostly indicating the ELK and mule deer were headed down slope into several of the smaller canyons, but until the snow melted off we decided too stay put, rather than risk travel.
many guys would have felt trapped or panicked but having been thru this, upper elevation snow pack deal, several times before, seeing early snows, we were fairly sure that the majority of the snow would melt over the next few days so we decided to use the snow to help locate game.
it might be surprising but in two days the snow had mostly melted leaving 6"-10" in many areas , a bit more in shaded areas,and north facing slopes and far less in many areas.
we eventually located the elk because tracks and animals were very easy to see, and it became obvious that one particular canyon held a good population.
we decided to hunt as a group on the 4th day , each of us walking out, or having franks 4x4 bronco drop us off along the logging road that followed the upper edge of the canyon., to points about 1/4 mile apart.
JACK and I were going to concentrate on a steeper section of the canyons upper drainage while the other four guys would by choice hunt the lower and less steep areas lower in the drainage where travel on slippery slopes was a bit easier, we got started out before dawn and by the time it was barely light enough to see your hands in the limited lighting and light snow fall, we found our self's about 3/4 miles from the trucks parked on the upper logging road access and down in a rather thick patch of conifers. Jack had his 458 win caliber Ruger #1 single shot ,that he purchased dirt cheap, barely used, mostly due to its designed ability to use cast bullets and the great deal he got on it because the previous owner had sold it, after a few shots he had tried. due to a badly bruised shoulder.
use of a properly employed sling and a good shoulder pad sewn into a shooting vest helped a great deal.
I was carrying my 358 win BLR loaded with 250 grain speer bullets and 44 grains of IMR 4064 with a 215 federal primer as we felt the ranges would be short.
we both had Leopold 4x scopes.
at about 9 AM we found a large rock outcrop on our side of the canyon with several large fallen trees on a steep slope ,near a abrupt drop-off , where a minor stream had cut a deep side mini groove , several hundred yards long and over a 100 feet deep along most of its length in the main canyon walls slope, making the area totally impossible for any thing to travel directly down the main canyon slope on our side from our location without either a long detour up or down slope to avoid the cliff face we were located above.
thus we had located and were watching over a natural funnel in the areas travel options for any game ,to force any game in the area to travel past us in a rather predictable route.
after sitting on what was an almost ideal location for about 2 hours both JACK and I had seen several dozen mule deer and a few cow elk, travel past us, in the snow covered slope below or location, but saw nothing worth shooting.
At about 11:45 AM, were were getting both hungry and bored so I suggested we eat a few pop-tarts while we waited and continued to scan the area, and at that point I guess we were not paying full attention because did not see several elk until they were at least 30 yards out from some conifers down the slope at about 300 yards out, from our location.
Jack said he thought the last elk , in the group, was a good legal four point bull, but 300 plus yards was a bit longer range than he was hoping too shoot at, game from and the 20-30 degree down,slope angle,also might be a problem, we watched intently and luckily the small group of elk ,traveled in an angled diagonally up slope , path,slowly lowering the range, but if they continued on their course they would enter a second grove of conifers at about 200 yards from our location, which would allow them to pass out of sight.
jack was loaded with a hard cast bullet from nei molds,we had selected to hopefully flatten his trajectory,it was pushed to about 2000fps with his hand loaded ammo. hand loads that we had purchased the components for, and loaded months before the hunt, and Jack had sighted in to hit 3.5' high at 100 yards ,the cast slugs were loaded over a stiff load of 60 grains of reloader 7 powder, and a 215 federal primer, this would place his 200 yard point of impact at near 200 yards , or dead on the cross hairs on level ground at near sea level where we sighted the rifle in, , but require he hold a bit low shooting down slope at that angle, and at the current 10,000 feet altitude.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
jack used his back-pack frame as a rifle rest , sitting in front of him a bit down slope from his sitting position,and as the bull got to the edge of the conifers , nearer too us,and just before he would go into cover once more, jack squeezed off a shot, it hit a bit high,with an audible WHACK! and instantly dropped the bull with a impact point on the elk , a bit higher than intended but instantly effective, spine shattering shot, jack also cussed , at the shot as he had gotten a bad cut over his eye brow, from getting too close to the scope during the rifles recoil, because he was not holding the rifle correctly and was thinking more about the elk and his rifles shot placement than the shots, resulting recoil,and where his forehead was, which caused the resulting damage, inflicted on jacks eye brow. It took us a bit of time too stop bleeding, but I had a few band aids and some super glue in a small first aid kit in my back pack, so after making sure Jack was not seriously, hurt,by the scopes impact with his eye brow,and making the mandatory jokes about having no harm done to his hard head, and the most likely only damage to the scope, being hurt we walked down slope too look at Jack,s second ever ELK.
it took use several trips with everyone in camp helping to process and get Jacks elk back into the coolers in the back of the trucks , and that year that was the only ELK anyone got, but we did get several more mule deer in the next several days.
if you think about this hunt and several others, I written about in the past, you'll quickly realize that having experience, locating, and recognizing a good area with fairly abundant game, and having located a natural terrain feature that funneled game movement and limited the games choices of routes they could use, too travel, and having the experience recognizing those features in the terrain, when they are located, helped provide a great opportunity to be successful.
yes theres some luck involved , but theres a good deal of logic and experience , think about a larger area where elk live, is a bit like looking over a large shopping complex, if you goal was to be looking to take pictures of shoppers ,vs hunting game, if that was your goal,you would set up near a food court or mall entrance, to increase your chances of seeing increased foot traffic, and your far more likely to have opportunities in those locations than if you set up out on the far edge of the parking lot or near some perimeter store.
yes think about it! about 80% of any mall is parking lot surface, area, vs food court or mall entrance points , and while you would realize that instantly in a mall you won,t see the correlation in a vast open hunting area without having some experience, and that experience allows you to locate the more heavily traveled areas and know what your looking for, and what features in the landscape tend to funnel game travel routes , or draw game to a specific area..
its the ability to recognize these terrain feature that limit and funnel game travel that increases your odds.
the absurdity in owning a 458 win or 458 LOTT, here in the lower 48 states, would be related to shooting dozens of full power loads that cost $6-$12 each, once you that the effort to reload too a much more comfortable recoil level and find a very accurate load matching your rifle, and reduce the cost to well under 70 cents a shot (easily done) using cast bullets that can be every bit as accurate as the factory ammo,many people see the ownership of a big bore rifle differently, it puts owning and using a 458 win or 458 LOTT, rifle in a whole lot more user and wallet friendly role, in your list of rifles, you grab going to the range or out hunting. yes the rifles do tend to be a bit heavy , but two of my friends have used 458 win rifles with reduced cast bullet loads successfully on Elk and one guy prefers a mild load with a 355 grain cast bullet at about 1400 fps for hogs and deer here in Florida.
while I'd agree that few people would want to use full power factory ammo all that often, the 458 win and 458 Lott can rather easily be used at reduced power levels
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... le&Source=
viewtopic.php?f=92&t=4672&p=37272&hilit=shoulder+recoil#p37272
viewtopic.php?f=97&t=4560&p=25717&hilit=sling#p25717
I own a 458 lott cz, once I lapped in the bolt lugs it was glass smooth and very accurate, I use mostly hard cast gas check bullets sized .459
keep in mind shorter and lighter weight gas check bullets can be very accurate at low and medium velocities, longer bullets tend to need to be pushed faster before they become as accurate from my experience.
buy several different height,front site blades (EASILY SWAPPED) as different weights tend to require different blade height if you use the iron sights at 100 yard targets,
the 405 remington jacketed bullet expands well at 1800 fps-1900 fps easily reached with reduced velocity lower pressure level, loads in the 458 win and 458 lott. and hotter handloads in the 450 marlin blr
obviously no deer or elk will walk from a well placed hit from any of the three in that power range and certainly the case head stamp is not critical, it its lethality.
the two larger cases handle the 450-500 grain hard cast gas check bullets well if pushed to the 1900 fps-2000 fps range,
powders like imr 3031, rl7, h 4895 and ww748 can all be effective
but after using these rifles for decades I have to point out any of the three are devastatingly effective on any game at under 200 yards in heavy timber and even a 45/70 loaded with a hard cast bullet at 1700 fps zips through and exits an elks shoulder in most case's.
https://www.loaddata.com/Cartridge/4...Manual-14/4733Have you ever tried shooting .458 Win Mag out of the CZ? I know you're supposed to be able to shoot both in the Lott.
yes I have,shot hundreds of cartridges while at the range and dozens hunting hogs and deer and even elk, and in my personal experience, in my personal CZ 458 lott, the shorter 458 win case feeds and functions fine but its not as accurate , now the difference in my case might be a 2" 100 yard 458 lott group vs a 458 win shooting 3.3" 100 yard groups off a bench rest, certainly no effective difference in minute off elephant or charging lion at typical hunting ranges. from what I read, but I have spent a good deal of time in thick timber hunting elk, with 458 caliber rifles,, that being stated I use my remington 458 rifle if I want to shoot the 458 win ammo.
to be fair almost all the ammo I load and shoot is loaded to velocity levels lower than max potential like 540 hard cast, bullets, at about 1900 fps and 350 hard cast loaded to about 2200 fps in the 458 lott, or remington 405 jacketed at about 2200 fps in the 458 lott.
I have developed a real respect for the rifles accuracy but you need to use a decent sling and a vest with a past recoil shield to feel reasonably comfortable shooting either rifle off hand or from a bench rest and theres no way Id suggest you shoot either rifle shooting prone.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/699899/past-super-mag-plus-recoil-pad-shield-ambidextrous
https://byallen.com/product/quick-adjusting-rifle-sling/
In fact one of the big benefits of the 45 caliber rifles is that the 45/70, 450 marlin,458 win, and 458 LOTT, can all be loaded from mild almost hand-gun levels duplicating a 45 acp-454 cassul up to the max pressure and velocity levels the cartridges are capable of handling
heres a REMINGTON CUSTOM SHOP 458 WIN rifle pictured I found posted, very similar to mine
this versatility, (if your a skilled hand loader) will allow you to hunt rabbits to anything in north America with a 45/70,450 marlin,458 win, and 458 LOTT, and while it may not be everyone's idea of the ideal compromise, in selecting a rifle caliber it has a great deal of potential as a 45/70, 450 marlin , or 458 win etc can be hand loaded to provide very good performance as a deer or elk hunting tool yet be down loaded to a pleasant plinker and in all cases dirt cheap cast projectiles can be used with very satisfactory results.
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