a snubbie revolver with kick your ass punch!

I recently received, an e-mail comment concerning this thread,
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-a-38-spc-snubbie-a-bit-more-effective.11870/
about the use of a 38 spc or 357 mag 5 -6 shot revolver with a 2"-3" barrel, as a concealed carry option, and its perceived lack of stopping power or punch.
A great deal of careful thought should go into your selection of your personal defensive firearm and you darn sure better think a bit about durability, dependability the fire arms effective and accurate range, and cartridge capacity, and how effective a single well placed hit should be as your life might depend on making the correct choices.
and the suggestion that there are much more powerful snubbie revolvers available that produce much more potential knock-down.
for example the ruger 480 caliber snubbie, and similar big bore options?
asking for my input, & thoughts?

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hbors-new-480-ruger-handgun.16011/#post-96548


http://www.handloads.com/articles/?id=6
Loading data for the .480 Ruger
CCI 350 primer
Starline cases
7.5" Ruger Super Redhawk

NEI 475-370-PB (#357) (392 grain WW + 2% tin) (meplat = .310", crimp to meplat = .450")
Powder Charge Velocity Comments
H110 21.0 1103 accurate
W296 21.0 1089 accurate
IMR 4227 22.0 1045 accurate
AA 1680 25.0 974 accurate

400 Lee FP (398 grain WW + 2% tin) (meplat = .340", crimp to meplat = .390")
Powder Charge Velocity Comments
H110 21.0 1108 accurate
W296 21.0 1114 very accurate
IMR 4227 22.0 1009 accurate
AA 1680 24.5 1001 mediocre

400 LBT WFN (406 grain WW +2% tin) (meplat = .380", crimp to meplat = .380")
Powder Charge Velocity Comments
H110 21.0 1103 accurate
W296 21.0 1126 accurate
IMR 4227 22.0 1075 good load
AA 1680 25.0 1042 mild pressures

400 RCBS SWC (409 grain WW + 2% tin)(meplat = .325", crimp to meplat = .430")
Powder Charge Velocity Comments
H110 21.0 1109
W296 21.0 1112 accurate
IMR 4227 22.0 1090 accurate
AA 1680 24.5 1029 OK
THOUGHTS???

Well, many people seem too worry that 5-6 shot capacity is a serious handicap, and a 38 spc is not known for dramatic power or knock down.

but statistics the FBI has show most gunfights are at under 10 yards and only 3-4 shots are fired,
now if you carry a snubbie revolver, for ease of concealment and excellent dependability should the need to use it ever come up!,Id suggest the first thing to worry about is you,ll need ,constant practice simply because under stress only well placed hits to an assailants vitals are going to count, and you certainly can't, "spray and pray" with a revolver

the next thing Id point out , is that a 480 ruger weights 44 oz and thats 2 3/4 lbs
similar Ruger revolvers are available in 44 mag, and 454 cassul caliber,
as well as the 480 ruger which I personally would have selected.
(currently out of production so you may want a 454 cassul with mild ammo)

• 
  
  
  • Action: DA/SA
  • Barrel Length: 2.5"
  • Caliber: 480 Ruger
  • Capacity: 6Rds
  • Frame Description: Stainless
  • Manufacturer: Ruger
  • Manufacturer Part Number: 5,302
  • Model: Super Redhawk Alaskan
  • SKU: 84874
  • UPC: 736676053025
  • Weight: 44 oz

so its certainly a significantly larger and heavier revolver than a typical 38 spc snubbie that typically weights about 23 oz or a bit less
and generally costs about $200-$300 less to purchase

Id also point out that even a 38 spc plus P, or 357 mag caliber snubbie revolver ,
will be rather loud and recoil level noticeable for anyone who does not take the time to practice regularly.
a 480 ruger would have nearly three times the recoil and muzzle blast and much greater potential hitting power, than even a 44 mag with its top power level ammo, but how much power do you really need ...even a 44 mag is considered by many people as excessively powerful, for point blank range defensive use!
and you will potentially be at risk of being sued, if you shoot an assailant and also kill the guy in the next room after your bullet exits the criminal.... and passes through the wall behind him.
I,m sure that would be brought up......... if that were the case by some civil law suit lawyer .
and any 5-6 shot revolver is obviously rather limited as to capacity vs something like a glock 19 9mm, which is very popular,
which will weigh about 34 oz and holds 15 shots and will be easier to conceal than the 480 ruger snubbie

then theres the issue of how much power and penetration is required, theres zero question that a 480 ruger with the correct ammo can drop a grizzly so it certainly has the power to drop any assailant if the shot placement is reasonable but its also likely to exit the assailant and punch through the person behind him also'
now I'd think that the glock 19 or the 38 spc or 357 mag would be the more logical option, but If I only owned a 480 ruger Id certainly look over the options on ammo and Id certainly feel I had a decent defensive close range weapon, if I carried a 480 ruger snubbie,
if you want a close range weapon for walks in the woods then hell yes buy the ruger 480 snubbie to make you well armed on those woodland strolls, but for in town protection a glock 9mm-40 cal or 45 acp may be a better option if you feel a 38 spc is not up to the job of providing the defensive power you think you may need.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-a-38-spc-snubbie-a-bit-more-effective.11870/

on the plus side of the equation, your never going to see some drugged up physco- continue to threaten your life, as he charges you with a knife, after taking a couple center mass hits to the central chest with a 480 ruger loaded to its potential either. ( but that should also be true of the 357 mag and 10mm , rather quickly) and a couple hits with the 38 spc should be just as lethal , it just may take a few seconds for the drug fueled criminals body to accept reality,
if you remember the FBI miami shoot-out
you'll remember non-survivable hits with a 38 spc don,t always result in instant cessation of criminal actions,
later scientific testing of the 10 MM ,strongly suggested similar hits,to those made with the 38 spc, by the FBI
would have resulted in a much faster result,s in that miami FBI confrontation



personally I've found a 10 mm works on deer and hogs,one shot kills are common.
but the 44 mag works noticeably better,(quicker kills)
(and I consistently shoot tighter groups)
yes I'M WELL AWARE THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN,T HIT CRAP WITH A 44 MAG REVOLVER!
(Ive used 44 mag revolvers for 5 decades,
but all of them , Ive owned have 8.375" -10" barrels,
making concealed carry a challenge)
keep in mind these were selected for hunting,
where the need of making a 120 yard shot was a strong
possibility,
while the need for making anything over 30 yard shots,
with a defensive handgun would be rather rare in my opinion.
one reason the 9mm para, and 38 spc are so popular is that recoil is negligible,
and most people with minimal practice can shoot those reasonably accurately and consistently.
personally I don,t subscribe to the concept of smothering the target with a hail storm of bullets,
Id rather have , made a choice of a limited shot capacity and considerably more power.
but I do realize most people think a larger magazine capacity of a semi auto like a glock,
with 17 shots is the better defensive option over a 6 shot magnum revolver,
every choice is a personal compromise, and I'm fully aware higher capacity semi-autos are the popular option, and yeah, I carry a glock #20 10 mm most of the time.
for over a decade I carried a 10 shot CZ 45 acp, and would not feel in the least bit compromised if I was required to carry a 10 mm or 45 acp CZ.or 1006/4506 S&W
If I could find a reasonably priced 5" 629 44 mag,
Id carry that, in preference over the glock,
but a 10 mm glock costs about 1/2 of what a 5" 629 44 mag, revolver sells for locally.

629 S&W 44 mag

S&W 1006 10mm


EAA/CZ 45 acp



Glock 10 mm


http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source

look closely at the difference in potential power levels
but keep in mind accurate, shot placement is more critical,
to quickly and effectively stopping an assailant than power alone

roughly 850 fps with a 158 grain in a 38 spc =256 ft lbs x 6 shots=1536 potential ft lbs
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38 Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38 Special P&Weight=158&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

vs
roughly 1050 fps with a 158 grain in a 357 mag=387 ft lbs x 6 shots=2322 ft lbs potential

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=357 Magnum&Weight=158&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

vs
roughly 400 grains at 1100 fps in a 480 ruger=1075 ft lbs x 6 shots=6450 potential ft lbs

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

and if your asking, Id rather carry a 10mm glock, with its 15 shot capacity and significantly easier concealment than the ruger revolver
theres always a personal judgement call or compromise, thats required between size, weight power shot capacity and ease of concealment


VS roughly 155 grains at 1300 fps=582 ft lbs x 15 shots=8730 potential ft lbs
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=10 mm&Weight=155&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

this video shows was WHY the FBI went too the 10 mm, that they selected after extensive testing as being a very effective caliber ,
ONLY after the forensics/ criminal body autopsy's showed the issued FBI pistols were not effective, So after extensive testing the FBI loved the 10 mm,
(as it had been scientifically and on the street, proven too be more effective, at producing lethal and rapid criminal stopping results, (which is what pistols are designed to do)
well, until they found that some of the female and smaller male officers , started complaining about the recoil and size of the 10 mm pistols..... and notice how the 38 spc and 9mm pistols the FBI used were not very effective, the recreation video, duplicates the real confrontation second by second according to all surviving witnesses.
no one ever stated the 10 mm did not perform much better in all the very extensive forensic testing they did before selecting that 10mm caliber.
the FBI only decided to go back to the less powerful calibers because many of the agents did not want to train enough to master the larger more effective caliber.
and a 480 ruger has over twice the bullet mass and energy of the 10 mm.

BTW obviously idiot actors in this re-creation, notice the morron criminal inserts the magazine in the rifle backwards at about 3m.40sec in the video,

closely related info

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

http://www.w0ipl.net/FBI-10mm

http://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...n-a-defensive-handgun-would-be-and-why.11908/

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell480Ruger.htm

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=500 SqqqW Magnum&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=480 Ruger&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=10 mm&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

STUPIDITY REPEATS
if your pistol and ammo can,t punch deep enough to destroy the vitals of some criminal behind a car door or a typical desk or other light cover, youll very typically be confronted with, your under armed
no opponents going to willingly stand out in the open to be shot at so a ballistic gelatin test alone is not realistic, and in my opinion selecting the less effective cartridge simply to allow the less skilled agents to get better scores on qualifications puts everyone at greater risk

http://www.policemag.com/channel/weapons/news/2015/11/02/fbi-going-back-to-9mm-ammunition.aspx

I recently got an e-mail on this thread and the question was asked ,
" why bother with the 480 ruger, its rather under powered and I'm sure your aware that there are 500 S&W snubbie revolvers"

well I kind of wrote the thread about use of a 480 ruger snubbie revolver
"as a bit of tongue in cheek humor"
as realistically I think its not a decent choice for personal defensive use ...
its much too powerful and much too likely to result in un-intended collateral damage,
well beyond the intended target, and of course most people will rather have the option of a 9mm-45 caliber pistol,
with significantly more cartridge's on tap,
as a 10-18 shot semi-auto pistol is currently far more commonly used,
for personal defense.
think about it a second...
if your use a 480 ruger let alone a 500 S&W for personal defense, as either revolver,
if loaded to its full potential ,
could easily punch through two people back too back,
and still punch through light sheet rock walls behind them.
I've seen several tests where a 480 ruger and a 500 S&W punch through over 8" of stacked boards
anyplace other than INSIDE your own home,
and even then you better be stating it was simply the first firearm you had access too,
not what you intended to employ,
but simply what was immediately available.
some liberal prosecuting attorney, is going too be all too fast too portray you,
as a physco, drooling , gun nut, who was eagerly hoping for,
and looking forward too, having the chance too kill anyone he could ,
at the very first opportunity.
logic, facts, or the truth will not be used or wanted in that depiction of anyone using those calibers in personal defense.....
the fact that a 12, or 10 ga shotgun would potentially do more damage,
and would not cause a cop or attorney to blink,
if it were used in home defense
(assuming your totally justified in any guns use of course)
will never come up, for discussion.










Considering most self defensive confrontations are at under 20 yards and fewer than 4 shots are fired,
according to FBI data, I always thought that the 3.5" barrel 500 revolver,
with reduced velocity loads, lets say a 320-350 grain semi wad-cutter
personally Id load those 325 grain bullets to about 1100 fps as any more would result in really excessive penetration.


at about 900 fps would be a rather interesting self defensive tool.
too large and heavy to be practical,
but it should darn sure get an aggressors attention,
and change is anti social intentions,if it hits center mass,
without posing excessive penetration or recoil,
for an experienced, large bore magnum, pistol shot, that puts it in the same energy level,
as many 10mm loads but with a much larger diameter and heavier projectile moving slower.






http://www.realguns.com/articles/558.htm

http://www.chuckhawks.com/handgun_power_chart.htm

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/4/16/throwback-thursday-the-fbi-ammo-tests/

https://www.pewpewtactical.com/bullet-sizes-calibers-and-types/

https://www.buckeyefirearms.org/alternate-look-handgun-stopping-power

Grumpy a 357 round will go through one wall a china cabinet and into a second wall this information was gathered by a younger me and an advocate of trigger locks

well I've heard of several ways to test bullet penetration,
but stacked up soaking wet phone books in a larger cardboard box set outside on a stump, and shooting that,
would seem to me to be less likely to have caused you a great deal less potential ,
for adults asking embarrassing questions or potentially injuring other members of the house hold.

http://www.handloads.com/misc/linebaugh.penetration.tests.asp

Yes I had myself convinced it was a dream in school that day the china cabinet has new glass but still sports a bullet hole to this day.

Grumpy i just wanted to point out that ruger makes and sells that snubbie revolver in caliber 454 cassul,
which allows you to chamber and shoot 45 lc ammo, making that at least a semi useful for defensive use choice,
and UN-like the full power 454 casull loads it will not be all that abusive to shoot provided you load 45 LC ammo?

Click to expand...

yes there,s zero doubt that those large bore Ruger revolvers have a great deal of potential,
they might be a bit large and heavy
but they are certainly accurate and dependable revolvers.
But I'd point out that, ANYTHING loaded to the full potential of the 454 cassul cartridge
would be
FAR beyond the reasonable, power and potential penetration level, you might need,for close range defensive work against a human adversary ,
that you could use.
but loaded to the lower velocity 45LC levels with a reasonable 180 grain to- 230 grain hollow point, bullet,
it might be exceptionally effective in trained and well practice hands.
in fact I would not feel at any serious dis-advantage if so armed.
(yes theres a HUGE difference in the power potential, between a 45 LC and a 454 cassul)
those revolvers are also made in 44 mag and will allow 44 spc ammo which is also a good defensive caliber choice.
keep in mind your choice in caliber should be made depending on the intended use ,
the 454 cassul would be great for dual use if you select the matched ammo for its intended use,
the 44 mag version also has that dual use potential,
the 480 while potentially also good for dual use,
it would require hand loading.
(as would all the rest if you wanted the true potential)

a 240 grain hollow point in a 454 cassul can easily exceed 1700 fps
(almost sure to penetrate well past the opponent)

a 180 grain in a warm loaded 45LC can reach about 1000 fps
(a known , and proven, effective defensive combo)

454 cassul ammo data
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=454 Casull&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source


warm 45 LC ammo
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_350&product_id=346

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=303_351


454 ammo
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=303_355



http://www.gunblast.com/Ruger-SRHAlaskan454.htm

Grumpy,
I purchased one of the 480 ruger snubbies, its accurate, its impressive,
its %^& LOUD AND RECOIL is HORRENDOUS WITH FACTORY AMMO!
ANY SUGGESTIONS

Click to expand...

fix is all too easy....take the time and effort too custom hand-load less powder and a lighter weight projectile until you find a recoil level at which YOU can mange the revolver.
as you gain experiences and skill you might increase the hand loads power level, but in many case the hand gun loaded with the lower pressure hand loads will be fully up to any job you might consider it for.
you can easily match the loads to any power level you prefer and change your mind as you gain experience & skill increases

EXAMPLE
I handload for a buddies 500 S%W I load the 440 grain lee hard cast over 22 grains of blue dot powder
thats well below max pressure and velocity, but still easily capable of shooting length wise though most hogs
even out at 50-60 yards

325 grain
https://gnarlygorilla.com/lee-doubl...MI992-wKG14gIVA7XACh15rwKMEAQYAyABEgLGZvD_BwE

400 grain.
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/2...nebaugh-476-diameter-400-grain-flat-nose

15 grains of 2400 under a 400 grain,would produce near 1100 fps

that would easily exceed a 44 mag power but be well under 480 ruger max power

BTW
bullet weight in grains x vel x vel /450240= muzzle energy


example
44 mag 240 grain x 1400 fps=1044 ft lbs

480 ruger 400 grain x 1100 fps= 1075 ft lbs
certainly a 48 caliber 400 grain bullet would put a hurt on any deer or hog
or MUGGER/ HOME INVADER