400ci small block fuellie heads which cams should be used

Discussion in 'Engine Combos and Dynometer Database' started by Arjen, Apr 29, 2018.

  1. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member

  2. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Right cranks back form grinding Wednesday.
    Out to be balanced Thursday.back on Friday.
    Youngsters can work over the weekend
     
  3. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Right update

    Rolling road in place !
    Crankshaft ground.
    Tomorrow balancing.
    Brackets for fuellies without mounting holes
    Being made with our waterjet !
    Can't wait !
     
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    clear pictures of the project as its progressing, would be great
     
  5. Daan.

    Daan. New Member

    Hello,

    i'm one of the students working on the 400Ci SBC ,

    When we dissasembled the heads with the old springs there were rings underneath the springs. ( ring shown in picture).
    IMG-20180608-WA0000.jpeg

    Do we have to use those rings for our new springs also?

    https://www.summitracing.com/int/parts/cca-982-kit
    Number of Springs Per Valve: Single

    Valve Spring Style: Conical

    Valve Stem Diameter (in): 0.344 in.

    Valve Stem Diameter (mm): 8.73mm

    Retainers Included: Yes

    Retainer Material: Steel

    Locks Included: Yes

    Lock Style: 7 degree

    Lock Groove Quantity: 1-groove

    Lock Material: Steel

    Outside Diameter of Outer Spring (in): 1.454 in.

    Coil Bind Height (in): 1.040 in.

    Damper Spring Included: No

    Spring Rate (lbs/in): 362 lbs./in.

    Inside Diameter of Outer Spring (in): 1.070 in.

    Inside Diameter of Inner Spring (in): 0.886 in.

    Valve Springs Coated: No

    Valve Stem Seals Included: Yes

    Valve Guide Diameter (in): 0.502 in.
     
  6. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Some pics
    More to Come later
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    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 19, 2018
  7. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    yes you need to as stated, many times on this and other websites, check all your valve train clearances carefully, the cam spec. card that came with your cam should indicate the ideal matching spring load rates and clearances required.
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    those heads (keep in mind that price is for a single (1) cylinder head)
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-30410001/overview/

    OBVIOUSLY YOULL WANT THE CORRECT VALVE SPRINGS
    the most valuable and useful tool you have is the ability to stop, look, think, question,
    and ask detailed questions any time your not 110% sure that you know everything,
    you need to too do things correctly and verify the results.


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...steam-holes-posted-by-dennyw.2991/#post-57455

    http://www.competitionproducts.com/1500-1585-OD-Valve-Springs/products/2631/1/0

    https://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/valve-springs

    https://www.iskycams.com/cart/valve-springs-c-99.html

    http://www.cranecams.com/userfiles/file/334-343.pdf

    https://www.racingsprings.com/Valve-Spring/Store/13

    http://www.lunatipower.com/Category.aspx?id=23

    http://www.pspring.com/products/engine-valve-springs/

    http://www.competitionproducts.com/Valve-Springs/departments/49/

    http://psisprings.com/products/

    http://www.compcams.com/Products/CC-'Valve Springs By Usage'-0.aspx

    http://www.racingsprings.com/Beehive-Valve-Springs

    https://www.supertechperformance.com/valve-springs-p109

    http://www.cvproducts.com/index.php/psi-springs/


    you might also want to keep in mind theres a great deal more to setting up a valve train than slapping some springs and retainers and keepers on the valves.
    read thru the links and sub links as theres a great deal of useful info, that youll want to know.
    btw just a bit more info, there are valve spring retainers, valve spring seats, shims, valve retainer keepers etc. that can be used that have different sizes or depths that allow you to change the installed height, or relation of the spring to the valve stem , it compressed height, or the valve springs location in relationship to the stems locking groove
    keep in mind shims under the valve springs can be used to raise the spring or shorten the valves installed height, valve locks and retainers can be purchased with non-O.E.M dimensions to adjust the valves installed height or spring load rates
    you use either or both depending on the application
    a .050 PLUS valve lock moves the retainer .050 higher on the valve stem with no other changes, a plus .050 retainer would move the retainer .050 higher with stock valve locks or an additional .050 if matched to .050 plus locks
    if you used a plus .o50 retainer with a set of minus .o50 valve locks the retainer would remain at the stock height on the valve stem
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    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181
    http://www.jegs.com/p/Crane/746983/10002/-1

    http://www.jegs.com/p/Moroso/764349/10002/-1

    http://www.jegs.com/p/Manley/940089/10002/-1

    http://www.jegs.com/p/Comp+Cams/757964/10002/-1
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    youll have to correctly measure the clearance on your heads with the valve springs and cam specs you selected too use to know if you have the correct valve spring installed height and clearances, failure to accurately check frequently results in very expensive repairs and to what new guys frequently blame on the cam when it was a installers ignorance that was the true cause.

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66902/overview/

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-900032/overview/

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/rsc-pac-t902/overview/

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    valve springs must be installed at a specific semi compressed and listed installed height,
    to provide the listed load rates and clearances,
    example

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    the cam you select will generally come with a suggested listed valve spring load rate and installed height,
    (NOTICE THE SUGGESTED INSTALLED HEIGHT WITH THIS CAM IS 1.800"
    and the loads are listed)

    you must maintain minimum coil bind and retainer to valve seal clearance and proper push-rod and rocker geometry
    the distance between the lower edge of the valve spring retainer and the cylinder head is adjustable to achieve the desired valve spring height through the use of valve spring seat cups and shims placed under the valve spring which can be purchased to lock into a stock height, or plus or minus about .050, and valve locks that cam move the retainer (stock or aftermarket) an additional .050 either tighter or longer allowing the valve spring to expand taller, shims can be placed under the valve seat hardened cups that are almost always mandatory on aluminum head but may be optional on iron heads,(O.E.M. cast iron and lower valve spring load rates)

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    max lift is installed height minus .060 minus coil bind
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    related info you really need to read
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ring-installation-questions.12833/#post-66460

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-loads-and-installed-height.10709/#post-46658

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ve-spring-iinstalled-height.12791/#post-66038

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-57678

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-springs.9613/#post-50556

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

    push rod to short
    WIDE SWEEP ON VALVE TIP FROM ROCKER ADDS ADDITIONAL,
    SIDE LOAD WEAR
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    push rod to long
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    at times lash caps or longer push rods will be needed to change the valve train geometry to gain rocker clearance or get the proper geometry

    push rod length correct
    AS CLOSE TO CENTER AS POSIABLE BUT BEING CENTERED IS LESS IMPORTANT THAN MINIMAL SWEEP ON THE VALVE TIP< INDICATING MINIMAL SIDE LOADING

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-pushrods-and-check-info-you-might-need.5931/
    http://www.summitracing.com/search/...d-length-checkers?autoview=SKU&ibanner=SREPD5
    Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66789 SBC 3/8" rocker studs

    Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66790 SBC 7/16" rocker studs

    Proform Pushrod Length Checkers 66806 BBC 7/16" rocker studs
    a few simple tools will tell you if clearances are ok

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    [​IMG]


    READ THESE LINKS CAREFULLY

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-springs-and-setting-up-the-valve-train.181/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rocker-push-rod-wear-issues.9815/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...steam-holes-posted-by-dennyw.2991/#post-57455

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/checking-piston-to-valve-clearances.399/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/two-loose-valve-locks.9687/#post-47884
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
    Arjen likes this.
  8. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    :thumbsup:Daan, those heads almost certainly came with exhaust valve rotators from the factory.
    For performance use rotators are not used - only retainers like the ones on the intake valves.
    That shim makes up the difference in the thickness between the two in order to get the proper spring installed height.
    You might find that the exhaust spring seats are machined deeper in those heads to compensate for the difference in thickness if rotators were in fact used.

    [​IMG]

    I see that you did not use the spring shields. Good for you. Back in the day, all that was used for valve seals was a combination of an o-ring that went in that extra lower groove in the valve stem (the groove under where the locks grab) and those metal shields for oil control. We have much better valve seals now. I see your valve guides have already been machined for them.:thumbsup: To use those metal shields today is a complete waste. It's just unnecessary added weight to the valvetrain that can serve no other purpose but to lower your rpm potential.

    Ultimately whether you use shims, cups, or locators, plus or minus retainers, or plus or minus locks, you need to find the best combination to get the correct spring installed height without having coil bind occur, or the bottom of the retainer contacting the top of the valve seal at full lift. There must also be clearance between the rocker arm and spring retainer and clearance between the rocker arm slot and its stud through the entire lift cycle.

    After you get all of that correct, then you have to determine the correct pushrod length to achieve proper valvetrain geometry.

    Read through Grumpy's links for more detailed explanations.
     
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2018
  9. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    I like to use the Term application specific.

    High Performance engines tend to have much higher oil consumption rates.
    Some burn 1 quart of oil every 100 miles and no smoke from the exhaust is ever witnessed.
    Some burn 1 quart every 500 miles.
    Some use just 1/2 quart every 3000-4000 miles driven.

    Exhaust valve rotators were never a good idea in Chevy Engines.
    Since Day 1 guys were turning them to 6000-8000 rpms.

    Exhaust valve rotators were used in nearly every Oldsmobile V8 engine.
    They actually worked OK & seldom failed.
    1965 Olds 425 did not use rotators on the valves. It was a factory high rpm engine.

    Pontiac used spring shields on all engines except the 1969-1970 RAIV 400.

    I have noticed always when an engine has its valvetrain setup for High RPM Race even with the very best Viton or Teflon Valvestem seals it uses consumes more oil than the factory layout did.

    So You have a street engine for long life and low oil consumption.
    Then a Race engine put on the street.
    That race engine is meant to make Max Power.
    Oil consumption is going to be higher than a stock layout street engine.
     
  10. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    Any engine turned up to 6K or more should have at least Billet Steel Chrome Moly Valvespring retainers & Matching Billet Valve stem Locks.
    7 degree or 10 degree Billet valve stem Locks.
    7 degree Super Locks are for only Radius race groove Valves.
     
  11. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Old blocks out!
    Crank is back tomorrow
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    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2018
  12. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Rebuilt started!!!!
    All parts are ( hopefully) here!
     
  13. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member

    Nice!!! Keep it coming!
     
  14. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Timing camshaft
    But puzzled on the non solid rockers.
    Checking whether valves hit pistons or not.
    Bring out the play dough!
     
  15. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Pics[​IMG]
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    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2018
  16. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Self made timing disc[​IMG]
     

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    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 12, 2018
  17. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    8 o clock time for a beer
     

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  18. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member

    Is that 8 am or 8 pm ???
     
  19. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    Haugh! 8 pm ! Not that desperate!
     
  20. Arjen

    Arjen Well-Known Member

    One for the night.
    How's the camshaft located???
    Just pulling on its distributor gear ?
     

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