409 pontiac build

grumpyvette

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409ci Pontiac Engine - Veteran Warrior
AIRFLOW DATA*
(All data acquired at 28 inches of water)
VALVE LIFT INTAKE EXHAUST
(INCHES) FLOW FLOW
.100 88 83
.200 173 134
.300 248 176
.400 304 217
.500 322 240
.600 342 256
.700 359 265
.800 366 273


ON THE DYNO
SEMCO PERFORMANCE
409ci PONTIAC
DTS ENGINE DYNO
RPM TQ HP
2,500 435 207
2,600 444 220
2,700 452 232
2,800 454 242
2,900 452 250
3,000 446 255
3,100 440 260
3,200 432 263
3,300 430 270
3,400 433 280
3,500 444 296
3,600 458 314
3,700 472 332
3,800 485 351
3,900 496 368
4,000 505 385
4,100 510 398
4,200 512 410
4,300 511 418
4,400 509 426
4,500 506 433
4,600 505 443
4,700 507 454
4,800 512 468
4,900 518 483
5,000 526 501
5,100 532 516
5,200 534 529
5,300 532 537
5,400 529 544
5,500 522 547
5,600 517 551
5,700 512 556
5,800 508 561
5,900 498 560
6,000 486 555
6,100 472 548
6,200 462 545
6,300 455 546
6,400 449 547
6,500 430 523
 
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Look at this article again Grumpy.
A past Jegs Engine Master Challange engine that competed.

Stock Pontiac Main Cap Bolts used in the 2-Bolt 400 block.
Stock 2-bolt caps.
Stock Crank offset stroked from 3.75 to 3.776".
Stock length rods 6.625 with stock Pontiac Big End rod size.
BBC Wrist pins .990" instead of .980" Pontiac .
Must have been lightweight tool steel drag BBC Pins.

Ultra thin ring packs used.
It was a Ram Air 400 block used.
1969 vintage 2-bolt. Had cylinder bore intake valve notches.

Also the Aluminium heads were raised roof and Port Volume decreased.
About to 1970 Ram Air 4 size . 187 cc.

Edelbrock heads modified .
After Port Velocity they were.
And ultra big tube headers used.
2-1/4" x 3-1/2.
Round port heads. Definitely Edelbrock aluminium .
Kaufman heads are all D-port aluminium based.
 
A solid Flat Tappet cam used.

Valves were Ferrea 6000 Race series.
Look like Titanium .
But Valvestems are Flash Chrome Plated.
Titanium valves have a special coating on valvestems. Not flash chrome plated Ti.
 
interesting build
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/1408-428ci-pontiac-engine/
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By The Numbers: 428ci Pontiac

SKIPPING READING THE LINKS AND SUB-LINKS WOULD NOT BE SMART!!

if you build any serious Pontiac Id suggest you swap out the stock connecting rods as, most OEM Pontiac rods are not very strong
(yes theres a few exceptions)
but those engines in most cases have millions of stress cycles and decades of use, and even when new, most typical production Pontiac connecting rods were not nearly in the class of the better performance engine OEM BBC , BBF,and BB mopar connecting rod strength


https://www.summitracing.com/search...cting-rod-length-center-to-center-in/6-625-in

https://butlerperformance.com/c-1234807-engine-components-internal-rods.html

https://butlerperformance.com/c-123...rnal-rods-4340-forged-billet-i-beam-rods.html

https://www.pontiacdiy.com/connecting-rods-performance-guide-for-pontiac-v-8-engines/

https://www.hotrod.com/articles/hppp-1201-connecting-rods-for-pontiac-v8s/

https://www.cartechbooks.com/techtips/pontiacshortblockinformation/

https://www.summitracing.com/search/section/connecting-rods/make/pontiac/engine-size/6-6l-400

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/rods_pistons_pins/rods.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/some-pontiac-related-links.4125/#post-42587

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...a-camaro-or-firebird-to-bite.4067/#post-10821

Bore: 4.350 inches
Stroke: 3.600 inches
Displacement 428 ci
Compression ratio: 11.48:1
Camshaft: custom Lunati hydraulic roller
Valve lift: .840/.772 inch
Rocker and ratio: Scorpion 1.85/1.7:1
Piston rings: Total Seal 0.043 inch
Piston: Ross forged
Block: Kauffman MR1
Crankshaft: Scat
Rods: Scat 6.700 inches
Cylinder head: Edelbrock Pro Port
Intake valve diameter: 2.350 inches
Exhaust valve diameter: 1.650 inches
Intake manifold: Edelbrock
Throttle body: Ron's
Header: Throttle's Performance
Engine management: MegaSquirt
Damper: Innovators West
Oil Pan Stef's
Fuel VP 100 unleaded
Oil AMSOIL 5w20


On The Dyno: 428ci Pontiac



RPM
: TQ: HP:
3,000 480 274
3,100 479 283
3,200 485 296
3,300 501 315
3,400 518 335
3,500 533 355
3,600 551 378
3,700 566 399
3,800 579 419
3,900 590 438
4,000 602 459
4,100 610 476
4,200 619 495
4,300 624 511
4,400 630 528
4,500 634 543
4,600 639 559
4,700 641 573
4,800 644 589
4,900 647 603
5,000 648 617
5,100 647 628
5,200 648 641
5,300 650 656
5,400 651 669
5,500 652 683
5,600 650 693
5,700 647 702
5,800 643 710
5,900 638 717
6,000 633 723
6,100 627 728
6,200 621 733
6,300 614 736
6,400 605 738
6,500 596 737
6,600 584 733
6,700 567 723
6,800 552 714
6,900 536 704
7,000 522 695






13/18
12. Delivering the airflow to the heads is an Edelbrock Victor single-plane manifold with provisions for port injection. The Ron's throttle body features a single butterfly and proved to be the best performing throttle body tested.

14/18
13. Speier handled the intake manifold porting, blending the plenum and port matching the runners.

15/18
14. The headers are a tri-Y configuration custom fabricated by Throttle's Performance. This layout proved to offer a broader power curve than a typical four-into-one design.
 
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Impressive Grumpy.
Very Strange Engine Parameters for a Pontiac V8.
Its an Engineering experiment that gave good results at Engine Masters.
The Cam must be utilizing Valve Overlap to a Large Extent.
Headers are interesting .
A bit of Vintage and mix of modern high tech.
8-Channel Wideband O2 & Datalogging shown.
Its nothing affordable for most.
My guess its an $80,000 dollar prototype engine.
Titanium Del West Valves used.....Since day 1 Titanium valves not allowed.
Strange Scorpion rockers used....Usually Crower, Hi Tech Comp, Shaft rockers used on engine of this Caliber.

Custom light weight 3-piece pushrods.
Likely Smith Brothers.

Homemade crank trigger setup.

RAIV Exhaust ports.....supposed to be terrible to many experts.....Obviously they work just fine.
 
Its not a real long life engine Grumpy....
Roller lifters showing signs of Dyno abuse Trauma .
Scuffing present on bodies .
 
The latest Pontiac guys don't believe in Windage Trays like You & I do Grumpy.
 
Its a Dyno mule oil pan.
Won't work in modern Tube Chassis race cars with Pontiac sheetmetal or Carbon Fiber Glass hung on.
 
I rarely get the chance to build Pontiac engines ,lately for two reasons,
first
theres darn few blocks and crank and cylinder head cores available at reasonable prices
second
theres damn little in the way of reasonably priced aftermarket parts available and nearly non-existent new parts development,
simply because pontiac corp no longer exists and because the aftermarket components cost more you find much less interest.
if your able to spend $5000-$12K on an engine build that makes north of 600 hp its far cheaper and easier to do with a dodge, chevy, or ford based engine
thats a damn shame because, the less common brands, like pontiac and caddy, buick and oldsmobile all made a few rather interesting engine designs.
yes theres a good selection of components available if you know where to look, but youll never see the vast choices that a chevy ls or sbc, BBF 385 series,or bb chevy enjoy
even the new dodge 5.7-6.2 hemi has a better selection now
 
There are quite a few Pro Pontiac builders on Max Pontiac Forum.
I haven't kept up the last few weeks.
Busy getting my 1963 Grand Prix ready to test fire that Olds 425.
There are some time proven combos that work.
 
Not sure why Pontiac engine cores are scarce in Florida now.
 
A few are running factory cast iron heads yet Grumpy.
11-seconds home ported.
A few guys offer CNC Iron porting.
My 1970 Ram Air 4 614 heads are very desirable yet by a few in the know.
 
Like to try modern Aluminum Poncho heads.
Not in the $ Budget.
 
Olds engines are just different .
6 degree valve inclination heads.
Head theory is just Screwey...
Exhaust to intake flow ratio terrible on nearly all.
But they make nice street torque yet.
 
There is actually a lot of aftermarket parts out there for Pontiac V8 .
Its not mainstream channels No.
Yes you need $$$$.
 
Also Big Chief With his All Pontiac V8 Crowmod has THE FASTEST PONTIAC RACECAR EVER IN THE WORLD.
ITS FASTER THAN EVERY SINGLE CORVETTE IN THE WORLD.
SMALL BLOCK CHEVY, LS & X, DART NSX, & BBC.
ITS FASTER THAN DODGE HEMI TOO.

NOTHING SPECIAL WHAT BIG CHIEF HAS.
ITS THE SAME EXACT RECOVERED ENGINE FROM HIS WRECKED CROW 1970 GTO ON NOVEMBER 14, 2015.
 
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I know of a 455 engaged to wed a 1965. The church has been picked, there's plenty of witnesses, the couple is looking for a pastor . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .:rolleyes:
 
How come the Guys on DC Don't go onto Max Pontiac and Race Richard ?
RACE CROWMOD WITH BIG CHIEF DRIVING ?

ITS THE SLOWEST EVER
 
I Seen the Guys put up A special thread just for me. Junk was overseeing it himself .
He likes me.

The Bandit Trans Am signed by Burt himself .
840 HP.
Way more than the Hellcats.
More than C7 ZO6
 
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