a glove box full of receipts is not proof

[grumpyvette]

a couple days ago I had a guy I know call me up all excited about the "super deal" he got from some guy at a car show. A deal on a rather below average condition 1966 chevelle that needed a good deal of body work ,interior work,electrical work, and basically a complete rebuild and while it ran and drove, and had a valid title and it had a glove box full of receipts, that showed a great deal of work had been done to a 1971 chevelle 454 engine, that (at least in theory) had been used, to replace the original engine and installed in and had replaced the original 325 hp 396 big block engine and automatic transmission,that at some point was replaced with a muncie 4 speed manual transmission and a 12 bolt rear differential.
Now the day of the car show,he called me at the time he was looking at the car and I asked him to get the block casting and head casting and take clear detailed pictures of the car and the VIN number, casting numbers stamped numbers etc. and write down the stamped numbers on the block, VIN, numbers etc. as I reminded him at the time that a glove box full of receipts is not proof, of much of anything, as anyone can forge receipts, and theres no proof the engine in the car and the receipts are related. what he paid for the car was not so excessive that even with the original 396 engine and not the 496 BBC he thought he was getting he didn,t get totally screwed , but it went from a good deal to only fair, as a result.
Well he got the car home and only then took the time to actually research the casting numbers and numbers stamped on the block and it eventually turned out that while all the receipts showed he had a 496 BBC engine ,built from all forged parts with rectangular port heads, according to the receipts, that should have produced at least 475-500 hp minimum, (probably more) but reality kicked him in the nuts once he actually verified what he actually had in the car,as it turned out he had the original 325 hp engine block that had been rebuilt with what was obviously a larger port rectangular port intake added and a different cam at some point.(as the car certainly doesn,t idle like a low compression 396 BBC with a mild cam) (no surprise the contact phone number of the sellers been disconnected)
the point of the story is that you need to do be aware that your responsible to do basic research and checking the vin numbers, casting numbers and title before any cash changes hands to verify what your dealing with is your responsibility, and theres a very good chance on older muscle cars that some of the documentations missing or faked or flawed , and YOU don,t need the hassle of deal with a stolen vehicle, ,title in dispute or a collection of parts that don,t match the bill of sale. and if your dealing with some individual vs a known dealership your at even more risk at being lied to about what your getting, or its condition, so buyer be ware!
you'll almost always need to assume, that your getting less valuable parts than your told you are and the cars in worse condition than its presented to be, and getting the car up on a lift for a detailed inspection and pulling the wheels, to inspect the brakes and oil pan ,to inspect the internal engine components and valve covers would certainly help give you a better idea of its true condition. you might be pleasantly surprised but you might also find a few problems that you were not told about in the process, but youll at least have a more realistic idea of what your starting with

LINKS MIGHT HELP reading these links could save you thousands of dollars

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4318&p=18620&hilit=+out+state+title#p18620

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4598&p=12268&hilit=+out+state+title#p12268

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10126&p=39694&hilit=state+trailer#p39694

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=8312&p=28893&hilit=state+trailer#p28893

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=93&p=29774&hilit=casting+numbers#p29774

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=93&p=13214&hilit=casting+numbers#p13214

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=93&p=9023&hilit=casting+numbers#p9023

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=5893&p=22102&hilit=inspect+salvage#p22102

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4598&p=12268&hilit=inspect+salvage#p12268

http://www.thecamaro.com/Decoding/Chevy ... ecoder.php


http://tgsperformance.com/bbc.html

engine ID Code Example: V0101CLJ - (V = Plant, 01 = Month, 01 = Day, CLJ = Engine Suffix Code)
Another example: T0830CTY - (T = Tonawanda, 08 = August, 30 = 30th day, CTY = 1970 396 Camaro, 375 hp, 11.0:1, TH400)

Code Engine Plant Code Engine Plant
F Flint (Motor) S Saginaw Service
H Hydramatic T Tonawanda
K St. Catherines, Ontario V Flint (Engine)
(McKinnon Industries Canada)
M GM of Mexico

VIN Code Format
The vin code format is stamped onto most engines. The format consists of divisional identification number, model year, assembly plant designation and vehicle serial or sequence number.
In 68-69 model cars, the serial (VIN) number of the car the engine was installed in is stamped next to, or under the engine code ID.
Starting in 1970, the serial number is stamped either above the oil filter, somewhere on the block pad (in front of the cylinder head), or on the transmission flange somewhere. Chevrolet issued technical service bulletins to indicate which engines were to recieve a vin stamp, so who knows what could have happend (or not happened).

VIN code format Example: 13N100001
(1 = Chevrolet, 3 = 1973, N = Norwood, 100001 = Production sequence of vehicle VIN)

osition 7: Assembly Plant

In 1972, plant codes changed to reflect the VIN code. For example, "NOR" = Norwood before 1972. In 1972 and on, it was simply "N".

A = Lakewood
L = Van Nuys
W = Willow Run

4 = Scarborough
B = Baltimore
M = Lansing
X = Fairfax
5 = Bowling Green
C = Lansing (B)
N = Norwood
Y=Wilmington
5 = London
D = Doraville
P = Pontiac (Pontiac)
Z = Fremont
6 = Oklahoma City
E = Linden
Q = Detriot
1 = Wentzville
7 = Lordstown
F = Flint (Chevy)
R = Arlington
1 = Oshawa #2
8 = Shreveport
G = Framingham
S = St. Louis
2 = Moraine (T&B)
8 = Fujisawa (Japan) Luv
H = Flint (Buick)
S = Ramos Arizpe
2 = St. Therese
9 = Detroit (Cadillac)
J = Janesville
T = Tarrytown
3 = Detroit (T&B)
9 = Oshawa #1
K - Kosai
U = Hamtramck
3 = St. Eustache
0 GM Truck Pontiac
K = Leeds
V= Pontiac (GMC)
4 = Orion

 

[87vette81big]

These days cloning musclecars is a big problem again with Super TV Car Auctions.
If I had $50-500k to spend on the car(s) I wanted, it would only be from well known private collectors around as long as I have been in the Hobby.
1987.
Seen plenty of clones being passed off as the real deal.
Takes time to educate yourself.
Engine compartment details....
Correct Fasteners with Anchor markings.
Correct Alternator with Date codes that match.
Date coded correct Carb.
Casting numbers & production dates that match within 2 months
Most clones put together haphazzard.
Nothing matches.

 

[87vette81big]

Even the glass is date coded.

 

[87vette81big]

If I had 50 bucks for every SD455 1973-74 Trans Am People told me were the Real deal, I would be $5 k Richer Grumpy.
Almost all had 4X or 6X smog era heads.
Big Holley Carb.
350 or 400. No 455 SD.
No #16 Round port heads.
All ran like crap too.

Just have seen 4 or 5 Real SD455 Trans Ams up close.

 

[87vette81big]

Dashboard Vin Tag must read "X".
SD455.

 

[grumpyvette]

Looking to buy a 1984 el camino from craigslist. Below is what the previous owner has said about the motor. Please give me some insight about this motor. Pros? Cons? Approximate horsepower and what I should do to it if it purchase. Thank you very much..

These are the specs from the previous owners build he says the motor was out of a 1968 Chevrolet Malibu /Bore is 4.030. Stroke 3.750. Cubic inches 383. Compression 10 to 1. Roller rockers. Cam is a 510 lift Timing chain crane. Edelbrock intake. Carburetor is a 750 double pumper. S RP Pistons. 2500 stall converter, turbo 350 with shift kit. 373 rear gears.

Be very careful, when buying a older used car off CRIAGS LIST, EBAY, or locally from any guy you see advertize a used car or engine!
its hardly unusual to find what you think your buying and what you receive varies a great deal!
a well known place to have guys dump cars and engines with less than solid titles or less than ideal drive trains, or parts to be listed that were never installed etc.
components or cars that they know they can,t generally sell at a dealership or trade in.
theres both not nearly enough info and not a shred of documentation that anything you listed has in fact, been whats been actual installed , your taking his word at this point that its not a 350 or a 307 for that matter with out pictures casting numbers etc.
any engine purchased from a private party source is
"a pig in a poke" you have no way to verify the receipts they might show you relate to the engine they are selling you, Ive got boxes of receipts from dozens Of engines Ive built and sold, if I grab a random stack and show you the next engine I build, how do you know the difference?
or that the work or parts listed were used on that engine nor do you know if the work was done correctly or the parts listed were even used or fitted and clearanced correctly.
look you could be getting a great deal but you could be getting random parts slapped together by a guy whos absolutely clueless.
this is the main reason you generally save money in the long run buying from well known engine builders with a reputation to maintain or factory crate engines or simply doing the work yourself locally with parts you supply, and stamp with your ID numbers and can verify are used in your engine as its assembled
Ive seen more than a few guys buy cars that supposedly equipped with a 383 or 400 only to find out that the engine they thought they bought was not what was between the fenders.
all I'm suggesting is CHECK CAREFULLY, get some pictures, part numbers,some documentation and verify what the paperwork says really relates to your engine rather than receipts to some other engine he built and sold.
one of my neighbors sons bought a car with the glove compartment stuffed full of builder parts and labor bill receipts for a killer 496 big block chevy , from a guy with his car parked at a local speed shop parking lot, when he got the car home and checked it out it turned out to be an almost stock 454 and the guy was long gone who sold him the car for big bucks because of the killer 496 bbc that supposedly made (600HP)that supposedly was between the fenders.

pay attention to the links early in the thread and call in the vin to see if the titles clear, check casting numbers, do a compression test, do a test drive, photo the seller, his drivers license his cars license plate and go to the local DMV to transfer title before money changes hands IM NOT suggesting you pass up the deal, but I am suggesting you verify its a legal transfer of title and your getting everything you think your getting before money changes hands
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10474&p=44012&hilit=casting+number#p44012

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4318&p=39859&hilit=out+of+state+project#p39859

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/source-for-muscle-car-bodys.8457/#post-29663

http://m.wikihow.com/Calculate-Diminished-Value

http://www.vincheckpro.com/vin-go?s...MI_fHiyZuY1QIVlLrACh1sVAkSEAAYASAAEgKKW_D_BwE

BTW maybe its just me! but I watch the shows where they recondition old muscle cars and in many cases they just don,t take the effort to do what I think is a reasonable bit of maintainable.
if your dealing with some component that's generally not easily visible but easy to removed , a few minutes with a powered rotary brush and some cold galvanize spray or at least some rust surface prep and some paint seems like its well worth the effort and for damn sure use of some NEW non-rusted BOLTS, to replace old rusty crap, and some anti-seize paste on the bolt threads, to replace old rusty fasteners, seems like its a reasonable precaution.
hey if your replacing something like a rusty radiator support bracket , rear spring perch, cross member,or battery box bracket, honestly how much extra effort is required to do the job correctly vs letting rust get a good head start on destroying the car?
any time you've purchased a new(too you) used muscle car,
you should start by carefully inspecting a car,s basic systems like brakes, cooling ,suspension, alignment, tires , power steering, hoses,belts, after all you'll generally have little or no idea how the cars been maintained, that's easily 45 plus years old in most cases,
its will generally save you some potential problems if you take the time and effort,
if you change out the fluids,radiators can and frequently are filled with either plain water,
( which caused corrosion, or old anti-freeze that can cause particulates to form and clog the radiator interior tubes)
Id especially change the oil, and filter, and slap a big magnet on the base of the oil filter

clip on a decent magnet to the base of a long oil filter helps it trap metalic trash more effectively, and while $29 may sound high its good extra insurance that potentially reduces the chances of metalic debis from getting to the bearings and valve train.
consider the cost of bearing replacement?

http://www.magnet4sale.com/n42-3od-x-1id-x-1-2-neodymium-rare-earth-ring-magnet/

change the oil, and filter, and slap a big magnet on the base of the oil filter
http://www.magnet4sale.com/n42-3od-x-1id-x-1-2-neodymium-rare-earth-ring-magnet/

and a couple high heat tolerant magnets,
near the oil drain back cylinder head drains in the rear of each head , and its smart too change the brake fluid
(which has a nasty habit in older muscle cars of absorbing and holding moisture in suspension.)

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...himmer-in-the-oil-catch-pan.11397/#post-52207

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/magnets.120/#post-49771

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-with-fuel-in-the-lines-tank.4111/#post-72082

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-filters-related-info.2080/#post-54352

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/c3-no-brake-pressure.10261/#post-41225

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/brake-fluid-info.1848/#post-16080
http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1844&p=4823&hilit=sand+blast#p4823

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3224&p=8580#p8580