I was recently asked why I've stated use of a 45/70, 450 marlin and heavy bolt actions,
like a 458 win or 458 LOTT rifles have any realistic use in north America, ?
the basis of this question was that all the 458 caliber rifles have rather limited effective range,
due to less than ideal flat trajectory at extended ranges,
compared to options like the 6.5mm-338 caliber rifle,
that admittedly have flatter trajectories and adequate power,
with a precisely placed shot and a decent projectile for most hunting?
keep in mind a 45 cal muzzle loader (especially with patched ball loads)
operates with far lower projectile mass and velocity in most cases, than the 45 caliber cartridge rifles,
so the 45 cal muzzle loader, is not in the same power class, as many cartridge guns of 458 caliber,
with a muzzle loader jumping up in bore size to a larger 50-58 caliber is preferred
obviously where you hunt and the game you hunt should and will effect your choice in the rifle you select!
your really well advised to handload and cast your own bullets if you use a ,458 caliber rifle!
If you choose to use cast projectiles,
the ratio of MASS/weight, sectional density and potential projectile velocity ,
and energy retention at longer ranges, that you can impart,
while retaining consistent accuracy, at reasonable pressure levels,
favors the 40 caliber and larger projectiles for extended range work.
while this does potentially work rather well.
it also has the negative result of rapidly increased RECOIL,
especially if you start pushing the heavier projectiles to the max potential velocity's,
but if you limit your velocity and yes thus potential flat trajectory,
to that which works ok at ranges under lets say 250 yards,
most people can learn to deal with the recoil levels and compensate for bullet drop,
at longer ranges rather easily with experience and practice,
well, Id start out by stating that the vast majority of the game ,
that I've shot and anyone I've ever hunted with have shot ,
was shot at well under 200 yards on average,
so having a super flat trajectory ,is not always critical to success.
and the 45 caliber, rifle lends itself very well to use of gas check, cast bullets,
which I've used several different 458 caliber rifles for decades with zero issues,
this greatly reduces the cost of reloading ammo.
this makes getting ammo at reasonable cost and makes it far less difficult to maintain an adequate stock of loaded ammo on hand.
example 458 LOTT, ammo is about $8 a cartridge with factory ammo,
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....gx)-dangerous-game-expanding-bonded-20-rounds
458 wins not all that much less $$
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....-dangerous-game-solid-superformance-20-rounds
with cast bullets you can drop that to about $2 or less a shot.
and with even a 45/70, 450 marlin, you get more than enough penetration to punch through both shoulders on any elk at 200 plus yards,
with a hard cast 405 grain bullet,
btw if your using a 458 win
a good reduced load is a 400 grain gas check ,cast bullet over
about 67 grains of rl7 or 69 grains of imr 3031,
seat out to longest length that easily chambers and feeds, fed or win mag primers preferred this tends to get you in the 1950-2000 fps range with a 400 grain bullet
this provides a very noticeable reduction in recoil and ammo cost compared to factory 500 grain cartridges, without any loss in lethality on ELK in the dense thickets at typical under 150 yard ranges
so a 500-540 grain bullet in a 458 LOTT is more than enough,
for anything that walks.
you don't need to push a 500 grain gas check hard cast bullet to more than about, 1800- 1900 fps to have a devastating load for most hunting,
I've used a 405 grain cast bullet in a 45/70 on a couple occasions,
and I've had others in camp, use my 45/70 to kill elk,
which was the back-up rifle I brought many years on hunting trips.
and several people who did so went on to buy similar rifles after seeing the results.
related threads
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-458-caliber-rifles.4672/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ge-using-cast-loads-in-a-458-win-45-70.14287/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/45-70-reloading.16594/
heavy, cast bullets (450-550 grain) in most cases, work great in the 458 win and 458 LOTT
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....llet-mould-number-457671-45-caliber-470-grain
the 45/70 and 450 marlin work better with 350-405 grain bullet designs
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-350B
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-360HG
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-375V
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-405B
ONE IVE USED THAT WORKS VERY WELL (above)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....05-rn-45-caliber-point458-405-grain-flat-nose
like a 458 win or 458 LOTT rifles have any realistic use in north America, ?
the basis of this question was that all the 458 caliber rifles have rather limited effective range,
due to less than ideal flat trajectory at extended ranges,
compared to options like the 6.5mm-338 caliber rifle,
that admittedly have flatter trajectories and adequate power,
with a precisely placed shot and a decent projectile for most hunting?
keep in mind a 45 cal muzzle loader (especially with patched ball loads)
operates with far lower projectile mass and velocity in most cases, than the 45 caliber cartridge rifles,
so the 45 cal muzzle loader, is not in the same power class, as many cartridge guns of 458 caliber,
with a muzzle loader jumping up in bore size to a larger 50-58 caliber is preferred
obviously where you hunt and the game you hunt should and will effect your choice in the rifle you select!
your really well advised to handload and cast your own bullets if you use a ,458 caliber rifle!
If you choose to use cast projectiles,
the ratio of MASS/weight, sectional density and potential projectile velocity ,
and energy retention at longer ranges, that you can impart,
while retaining consistent accuracy, at reasonable pressure levels,
favors the 40 caliber and larger projectiles for extended range work.
while this does potentially work rather well.
it also has the negative result of rapidly increased RECOIL,
especially if you start pushing the heavier projectiles to the max potential velocity's,
but if you limit your velocity and yes thus potential flat trajectory,
to that which works ok at ranges under lets say 250 yards,
most people can learn to deal with the recoil levels and compensate for bullet drop,
at longer ranges rather easily with experience and practice,
well, Id start out by stating that the vast majority of the game ,
that I've shot and anyone I've ever hunted with have shot ,
was shot at well under 200 yards on average,
so having a super flat trajectory ,is not always critical to success.
and the 45 caliber, rifle lends itself very well to use of gas check, cast bullets,
which I've used several different 458 caliber rifles for decades with zero issues,
this greatly reduces the cost of reloading ammo.
this makes getting ammo at reasonable cost and makes it far less difficult to maintain an adequate stock of loaded ammo on hand.
example 458 LOTT, ammo is about $8 a cartridge with factory ammo,
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....gx)-dangerous-game-expanding-bonded-20-rounds
458 wins not all that much less $$
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....-dangerous-game-solid-superformance-20-rounds
with cast bullets you can drop that to about $2 or less a shot.
and with even a 45/70, 450 marlin, you get more than enough penetration to punch through both shoulders on any elk at 200 plus yards,
with a hard cast 405 grain bullet,
btw if your using a 458 win
a good reduced load is a 400 grain gas check ,cast bullet over
about 67 grains of rl7 or 69 grains of imr 3031,
seat out to longest length that easily chambers and feeds, fed or win mag primers preferred this tends to get you in the 1950-2000 fps range with a 400 grain bullet
this provides a very noticeable reduction in recoil and ammo cost compared to factory 500 grain cartridges, without any loss in lethality on ELK in the dense thickets at typical under 150 yard ranges
so a 500-540 grain bullet in a 458 LOTT is more than enough,
for anything that walks.
you don't need to push a 500 grain gas check hard cast bullet to more than about, 1800- 1900 fps to have a devastating load for most hunting,
I've used a 405 grain cast bullet in a 45/70 on a couple occasions,
and I've had others in camp, use my 45/70 to kill elk,
which was the back-up rifle I brought many years on hunting trips.
and several people who did so went on to buy similar rifles after seeing the results.
related threads
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-458-caliber-rifles.4672/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ge-using-cast-loads-in-a-458-win-45-70.14287/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/45-70-reloading.16594/
heavy, cast bullets (450-550 grain) in most cases, work great in the 458 win and 458 LOTT
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....llet-mould-number-457671-45-caliber-470-grain
the 45/70 and 450 marlin work better with 350-405 grain bullet designs
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-350B
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-360HG
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-375V
https://www.accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=46-405B
ONE IVE USED THAT WORKS VERY WELL (above)
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....05-rn-45-caliber-point458-405-grain-flat-nose
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