a reloading mistake that taught me a lot

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
most of us learn by making mistakes few of us will admit making them,
back,when I first got into reloading like all new guys to any hobby I made a few mistakes
,
I was about 17 at this time,
heres one you might get a grin from,
I got a good scare because I realized that the results might have been far different and it taught me to pay attention!
I got a call from a friend at about 11 pm on a Friday night telling me that he had just gotten access to a friends, private property, hunting area,
that we could hunt that weekend, the only catch it was a HANDGUN ONLY area and we needed to be on the site at 6 am,
I had zero ammo loaded for my 44 mag revolver, so I told the wife about the opportunity,
and ducked into the garage to load 20 cartridges (NEVER RELOAD WHEN 1/2 a sleep)
I looked up my loads in a load manual and set my power scale,
ohausscale.JPG

sized and lubed the cases, primed them, flared them,
double checked the powder I was using was correct, and loaded the cases, with powder, seated the bullets and went to bed,
at about 4am I get up, jump in the car and drive out to meet my friends

, by 7 am I'm in a tree stand overlooking a deer trail and at about 8 am there's a legal buck slowly working his way towards me,
when he got into about 35 yards I had the sights dead on his shoulder,
I slowly squeezed off a shot, the revolver gave a muted THUNKPOOFF sound and the bullet arced out and I could see it in flight, as it hit the buck and bounced off, about like a marble from a slingshot
one very surprised buck bounded off, into the brush,,,,, and I sat there in startled amazement,
THUNKPOOFF was not normal ! a CRACK/POW was NORMAL!!
IM reasonably sure velocities were under 200 fps because I had lots of un-burnt powder, H110 needs a certain pressure level to burn consistently.
, unlike BLUE DOT or UNIQUE powder which is better for low velocity loads (not that ID intended to build a LOW VELOCITY LOAD, ANYWAY)
29-3SilhouetteLeftSide.jpg

(I was using a shorter barreled 6.5" S&W MOD #29 then,
but swapped to this when I purchased it in the 1980s and never looked back)

after inspecting the bore to be assured there was nothing stuck in the barrel I picked out a large tree trunk,
around about 40 yards away and tried a second shot.....same result.. THUNKPOOFF sound and a bullet bouncing off the tree.
on returning home after the hunt I disassembled to remaining ammo, and weighed the powder, the load manual called for 20-21 grains of H110 powder,
Id screwed up and set the powder scale for 11 grains by mistake,
if I screwed up and set it for 31 grains the case would have over flowed,
and the mistake would have been more obvious with that particular powder,

but I realized that the mistake was major, because if ID set the scale for lets say 26 grains it might have been a HUGE problem,
or if ID used a different powder I could have caused serious problems, as I might have loaded a serious overcharge,
ever since I learned tootriple check both the POWER USED and THE CHARGE WEIGHT SEVERAL TIMES,
AND WITH AT LEAST TWO and HAVING THREE OR FOUR MANUALS CURRENT MANUALS FOR REFERENCE,
IS EVEN BETTER,, you NEED three minimum, manuals because theres occasionally mis- prints, or typos,
that you need to catch,as an example, if one manually were too suggest lets say 48 grains of IMR 4064 under a 250 grain bullet in a 358 win,
and both your other manuals top out at 44 grains you know theres a problem, that you should look into.

you can also check on-line now but back 30 plus years ago that was not an option,
but don,t trust ANY SINGLE REFERENCE SOURCE
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun

IF YOU DOUBT A HANDGUN CAN BE EFFECTIVE WATCH THIS VIDEO
and yes thats a 44 mag with 300 grain bullets not a larger caliber, as always shot placement is critical and a 44 properly loaded has plenty of power

Ive loaded a hard cast 300-310 grain lyman or LEE gas check bullet over 20-21 grains of H110 powder in my 44 mag for decades , (start with 19 grains and work up a 1/2 grain at a time ) it shoots clear thru most hogs and deer exiting and still going strong so be aware you don't want to shoot a deer with a second deer directly behind the first
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.a ... pe=Handgun

http://www.midsouthshooterssupply.com/i ... 0000690227
the powder scale had three separate movable weights that fit notches on a balance arm, Id placed one on notch off its intended location, causing the problem, I went out and purchased a far more reliable scale after that, similar to this one below

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... er&Source=

http://data.hodgdon.com/cartridge_load.asp

http://www.lasc.us/Fryxell44OverWeight.htm

ohausscale.JPG

and shortly after I found a great deal on a second scale to use to verify and cross check which I bought and use as its a great way to verify
powderscale.jpg
 
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one of my friends invited me to the local shooting range, it was just not in the cards, so I had to pass this trip, when he got back, he told me that he had purchased some reloads for his 45 acp at the range that shot terribly.
now he ask me what I thought, so I took apart several of the cartridges he had brought back with him from the range to see what they were loaded with, and while Im not 100% sure what powder was being used it looked a great deal like GREEN DOT, the loads varied from 4.5 grains to 4.7 grains under a plated 230 grain lead bullet , obviously the range re-loader is far more concerned with stretching the powder supply as far as possible rather than making loads that duplicate the standard load for a 45 ACP

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... der&Source

BTW 6 grains of unique or 8.3 grains of BLUE DOT under those plated 230 grain bullets works far better

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/342883 ... box-of-500
 
What tool you use for reloading and what are the required tool for reloading?, i may get into reloading soon and it seem like its ahrd to get info and supplier.
i heard the lee precision press are very good.
 
your choice in reloading press design will depend a great deal on the type of cartridges and the amount of cartridges your looking to reload

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/513567 ... tage-press
513567.jpg

a press like this, with a few matching accessories, makes excellent quality rifle and pistol ammo but its fairly slow, yet if your only loading a few boxes at a time its a great choice, especially for rifle ammo, figure 50-150 cartridges an hour, depending on your skill level

http://www.dillonprecision.com/#/conten ... ?viewImg=1
RL_550_cat_shot.jpg


youll pay 3-4 times as much for a quality progressive press and accessories, but 350-600 cartridges an hour is not that hard to do.
while the cost up front seems excessive, you can easily save 30%-80% on ammo, so you can quickly amortize the cost and find your producing better ammo at far lower cost, the (problem is) youll also find your shooting far more frequently so youll probably spend just as much or more, but shoot far more frequently

example



44 mag revolver ammo costs about $35 a box ofv 50 around here I can reload for less than 1/4-1/3rd the cost if I have old brass and cast my own bullets

340 wby amo costs $67 for 20 cartridges ,I can reload better ammo for under $20 a box once I have old brass, and brass can be reloaded 6-10 times
 
Am looking to reload 30 caliber rifle ammo(specific, 308, 300 win mag, 303 british)
I dont mind slow process am doing this as a hobby / relaxing activity(also for a little accuracy gain) the "Rock Chucker Supreme" looks perfect to me.

Now you say something am totally unaaware of, casting bullet, do that require a foundry or expensive equipment or it can be done without too much investment?
I dont think ill start casting bullet but if i can setup for cheap it may be of interest to me.

thanks for your reply :)
 
cast bullets can be made from scrap lead like wheel weights plus a bit of tin added to make a harder and smoother alloy, and are far cheaper ,than purchasing jacketed bullets, but because they are far softer than jacketed bullets velocities under 1600fps-1800fps are usually used to prevent leading the bore so they are great for plinking or close range hunting (under 200 yards) but not usually used in full velocity loads in rifles, youll require a few more tools , Id suggest starting with commercial bullets and get that down pat, before starting with cast bullets.
with a hand gun caliber like a 44 mag or 357 mag, even in a rifle the cast bullets perform very well and allow full velocity's in most cases , because your already limited to about 1600fps-1800fps

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183267 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/645810 ... e-110-volt

youll need size dies top punch, gas checks and a size tool all can be found far cheaper USED on EBAY

keep in mind millions of bison were killed with hand cast bullets at ranges between 100-700 yards or so, so its not like they are not fatal to game or less accurate in skilled hands

http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m ... n13781619/
 
grumpyvette said:
cast bullets can be made from scrap lead like wheel weights plus a bit of tin added to make a harder and smoother alloy, and are far cheaper ,than purchasing jacketed bullets, but because they are far softer than jacketed bullets velocities under 1600fps-1800fps are usually used to prevent leading the bore so they are great for plinking or close range hunting (under 200 yards) but not usually used in full velocity loads in rifles, youll require a few more tools , Id suggest starting with commercial bullets and get that down pat, before starting with cast bullets.
with a hand gun caliber like a 44 mag or 357 mag, even in a rifle the cast bullets perform very well and allow full velocity's in most cases , because your already limited to about 1600fps-1800fps

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/183267 ... -gas-check

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/645810 ... e-110-volt

youll need size dies top punch, gas checks and a size tool all can be found far cheaper USED on EBAY
Thanks for the info, now that am aware of that when i start reloading i will stay with jacketed bullet.
 
I just got a call from JACK, he had a similar reload experience with a HOG hunt
wildpig.jpg

he went on this weekend, he was invited to a private ranch to cull a few feral hogs that were tearing up his property. JACKS more of a rifleman, but on this ranch hunting is allowed with a bow or hand gun, only.
please be aware that a properly loaded 45ACP pistol is more than adequate to hunt the normal 100lb-250 lb hogs that we frequently see, in the area.
hand guns are preferred for hog hunts on this particular ranch by the owners, as the chance of a bullet going far from its intended target is greatly reduced
JACK normally loads his own 45ACP ammo but decided to try reloads he had on hand.
451911.jpg

this was a hand gun only hunt, and jack brought his 45 acp pistol, and a box of reloaded target ammo he had purchased at a local range.
keep in mind "TARGET LOADS" tend to be light recoil ,high accuracy but lower velocity loads.
the end result was that JACK who usually hunts with a rifle got into about 30 feet of a large hog, and shot the hog,with his 45 acp fully expecting it to drop on the spot, but the hog he hit which squealed and ran off,definitely didn,t drop instantly. it exited the immediate area,with JACK throwing a few rapid shots at it as it departed. he followed the hog for about 200 yards and found it, looking rather sick but definitely not yet dead, he expended the rest of his 7 shot magazine and every one of his 7 shots hit the hog in at least a semi vital area, most of the hits would have been fatal hits with a 44 mag or properly loaded 45 ACP.
(normal hunting loads for a 45 ACP throw a 230 grain to about 880-940fps) (396 ft lbs minimum)

BUT his hand range loads were designed as target loads with 200 grain bullets going barely 750 fps (just enough to cycle the action) (250ft lbs)

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_ ... header=.45

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/defau ... gun&Source

compare that to the 1300fps load with a 310 grain in my 44 mag (1164 ft lbs) and youll see why I prefer the 10" barrel 44 mag
or a common 30/06, (150 grain bullet at just over 3000fps) with 3000ft lbs of energy
 
youll need size dies top punch, gas checks and a size tool all can be found far cheaper USED on EBAY

keep in mind millions of bison were killed with hand cast bullets at ranges between 100-700 yards or so, so its not like they are not fatal to game or less accurate in skilled hands







___________________________
obd2 diagnostic toolgm tech2
 
how many of you test your handgun handloads , for accuracy and penetration before you go hunting?
how many guys stick to reliable load data"
one of the guys I occasionally hunt with had recently gotten into handloading,
he had purchased a 6" Ruger 357 mag revolver and wanted to go hog hunting with it,
he had purchased a 170-grain mold and cast up a couple of pounds of projectiles
https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1010242033


he had hand loaded a couple of dozen cartridges with those bullets in some 357 mag brass he found at a local range,
while he waited for his ordered components like powder and primers and brass to arrive
I have no idea where he looked up the load data ,
but he said it should be safe enough as it was for,
200 grain bullets in a 38 spc
and it was being used in his ruger 357 mag
and remembered he had used green dot powder
I pulled one cartridge apart, it looked like it had 4.5 grains of powder
I could not find a single similar reference.
I suggested we pull the ammo and re load with known powder in a listed charge weight.
he insisted we try his handloads, knowing it was a 357 mag and only 4.5 grains of powder,
I was reluctant to let him,
but he insisted and placed a 2x4 on the ground outside my shop and fired a couple cartridges into it,
the bullets barely exited the 2x4 and were found on the dirt under the board.
obviously this was not a load Id suggest he hunt with.
and I handed him an old lyman manual and told him to keep it.

Lyman 45th Reloading
and suggested he read it and only use info he verified in at least three different printed manuals as his sources
we all make mistakes, we were all young and invincible,
and luckily this was minor but it could have gone very wrong.
it could have been a huge over load rather than an underload that would most likely not be effective,
you can,t just guess or randomly pick powder types and bullet weights
 
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The old Alliant catalog lists 6.0grn Green Dot as the max for .357mag with a 158 LSWC and with a 180 JFP, and 5.0 as max for a 200 LRN. It lists 3.5 max for a 158 LSWC, 3.4 max for a 160 JSP, and 3.1 max for a 200 LRN in 38spcl cases - bumping to ~3.7-3.8 max for the 158/160 class in 357mag cases, only operating under 16kpsi. The .38spcl+P data with a 17kpsi max shows 3.7grn for a 158 LSWC and 3.2grn for a 200 LRN - again, scaling somewhere around 3.5 for the 200 and 4.0 for the 158 if loaded in a 357mag case...

So at 4.5 grn under a 170 cast in a 357mag case, he was over 17kpsi 38spcl+P standards by about 3/4 grain, and likely falling about the same 3/4 grain under a predicted max for a 34kpsi standard. Likely cooking somewhere around 24-28kpsi. Not a max pressure load, but certainly not a low pressure load either. Based on the data, I’d guess it would have been trucking around 850, maybe just under 900fps from a 6” barrel. A little faster than a typical 158 +P load, and touting a bit more bullet weight. Not a max load, but not a load I would want to stand in front of.

Stopping a bullet in a 2x4 isn’t so surprising, however. I’ve caught hundreds of 45acp 225-230grn slugs, full power loads, in 2x4’s. I caught end cut scrap from my brother’s construction job when I was in college, stood them on fence rails and used them for bowling pin match practice. They’d catch the bullet more often than not. The same loads which would easily flatten a bad guy or a buck. I’d catch 115-124 class 9mm slugs in double layered 2x4’s regularly also - speed makes a big difference.


thanks for posting the details, I'm sure he will appreciate it, I know I do appreciate it!
the main point I was trying to impress on him was that you don,t want to use of a single source for load data ,
and to test his loads for accuracy and penetration,
the days of using soaking wet phone books or sears catalogs stacked 2 feet thick,
as a bullet penetration test medium seems to be over as they no longer drop those off regularly
purchase of several load manuals is almost mandatory.
if you reload a good deal.
especially with a powder or bullet weight that's not all that commonly used is marginally risky.
I've used that bullet several times while hunting with a 357 mag revolver,
but Ive found 2400, h110, and blue dot all to be a better match in that velocities
are higher penetration better and if you pay attention to the load manuals and cross-check, several
very safe.
I have found that a 357 mag with those 170-grain hard cast bullets are a good choice,
but I'd be leary of green dot powder as a propellant,
found 12 grains of 2400 or 14 grains of h110 to work rather well.
Id expect a decent hunting load to penetrate through a bit more than a single 2x4 board.
especially since I know from experience that that bullet will easily do much better in a 357 mag revolver
 
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