anti freeze red vs green

[grumpyvette]

ANY ANTI FREEZE needs to be replaced every 3-5 years or so or at 150K miles ,AS A MAXIMUM LIFE EXPECTANCY, MOST LOSE SIGNIFICANT LEVELS OF EFFECTIVE CORROSION PROTECTION GRADUALLY FROM 24 MONTHS and about 40,000 miles and its a good idea to have the RADIATOR FLUSHED of the crud that tends to accumulate, too keep it free of the stuff that tends to settle out and clog the passages. and too prevent the water / coolant mix from breaking down and acting like an electrolyte in a battery, in an ideal world youll want to replace antifreeze with a 50%/50% mix of antifreeze and distilled water,one other factor often over looked is the anti-freeze concentration, your going to ideally use a 50% water 50% antifreeze mix that balances cooling efficiency with corrosion resistance, if you run strait water electrolysis is very likely, almost certainly going to cause major problems, but if you run strait anti-freeze youll run 15-20 degrees hotter as strait anti-freeze does not transfer heat as effectively as water or a 50%/50% mix.
adding an ANODE can help, reduce corrosion .

http://www.radiator.com/article-radiator-problems.html

http://www.radiatorinfo.com/radtip.html

Antifreeze shenanigans

Last night I had a long discussion with some friends on antifreeze. I was amazed how many opposite opinions I heard on something that should have a pretty straight answer. Ethylene, propylene, organic, inorganic, silicates, long life, distilled, non-distilled, bolt in zinc anodes andwhatnot...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

http://www.aa1car.com/library/cooling_s ... rosion.htm

viewtopic.php?f=57&t=9769

http://www.sancarlosradiator.com/antifreeze_coolant.htm

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=57&t=74

http://www.ehow.com/how_2189727_prevent-clogged-radiator.html

http://automechanics.wordpress.com/2008/05/28/top-ten-common-radiator-problems-for-older-vehicles/

No-Rosion Products Technical Questions and Answers

the ORANGE and GREEN anti-freeze most of us use are sometimes NOT compatible and if blended , IF mixed they frequently over time form a sludge, or break down and leave crud in the radiator passages that clogs the passages, THEY SHOULD NEVER BE MIXED
https://durathermfluids.com/pdf/techpapers/pressure-boiling-point.pdf

look thru, and read this linked info, the links help
adding an ANODE tends to slow the Corrosion, and having a good engine ground also tends to prevent or at least delay freeze plug and radiator corrosion problems running just water in a radiator allows it to act like the acid in a battery if your running aluminum parts like water pumps,radiators and heads on an iron block.
NEVER MIX
DEXCOOL (ORANGE)AND PRESTONE (GREEN)DON,T PLAY WELL TOGETHER

read thru the links

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2005/us90554.htm

http://www.radiator.com/article-radiator-coolant.html

http://www.aa1car.com/library/2004/us120426.htm

["quote=gch"]After several hot Texas summers, my 454 aluminum radiator has sprung a small leak. It's an Al core with plastic end caps. I'm replacing it. [color]Is an entire all Al radiator worth the price?[/color] I'm sure I can find a size close enough to fit my C10. Boiling over is an issue too. Should I rewire my electric fans to keep running with the key off until temp drop to 190? I don't like constant power to components, but a cut off switch would be helpful during cooler months. [/quote]

the value of an aftermarket radiator depends on the ratio of COST to quality and expected life span, the BETTER QUALITY aluminum 3 & 4 tube aluminum radiators do a very effective job at heat transfer and in my opinion are well worth the cost., theres a ton of related info in the links below

Best Antifreeze and Coolant Fluids for 2022

Antifreeze prevents engine cooling fluids from freezing in winter and helps cool the engine in summer. Here are the best antifreeze and coolant fluids for 2022.

www.forbes.com

The 10 Best Coolants and Antifreezes

Find out how to choose the best engine coolant and antifreeze for your car based on factors such as quality, price, performance, warranty and more.

mechanicbase.com

The Best Antifreeze (Review) in 2022

Car's cooling system is vital for a smooth engine performance. Check out our detailed guide about the best antifreezes on the market to save you time and money.

www.carbibles.com

Best Antifreeze: That's Cool

Antifreeze, or coolant, is vital to making sure your car runs properly. Check out the best antifreeze at The Truth About Cars.

www.thetruthaboutcars.com

Best Antifreeze: Keep Your Engine Cooler for Longer

Looking for antifreeze? Our team of experts narrowed down the best antifreeze on the market. Read this review and save yourself time and money.

www.thedrive.com

Choose the Right Engine Coolant - Valvoline™ Global

Learn about the different types of engine coolant and make sure you're putting the right coolant in your vehicle. Valvoline's antifreeze color chart can help!

www.valvoline.com

thoughts on cooling

read this, yes theres a good deal of info in the links worth the time and effort, and yes its well worth your time to read thru keep in mind, that if your engine is mechanically functioning correctly, IE there are no problems like leaking head gaskets or the wrong head gasket or a cracked head...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

anti freeze red vs green

ANY ANTI FREEZE needs to be replaced every 3-5 years or so or at 150K miles ,AS A MAXIMUM LIFE EXPECTANCY, MOST LOSE SIGNIFICANT LEVELS OF EFFECTIVE CORROSION PROTECTION GRADUALLY FROM 24 MONTHS and about 40,000 miles and its a good idea to have the RADIATOR FLUSHED of the crud that tends to...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

14 Rules for Improving Engine Cooling System Capability

I thought this article explained very well why slowing down the flow of coolant by using a restriction is wrong. Also goes a long ways to uncovering many of the myths that surround a cooling system. Mr Crook gives us some hard numbers that can be used when picking a radiator, such as the number...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

anodes

I got asked if USING anodes, in an engine is a good idea? electrolysis can rapidly cause damage, use of a 50% anti-freeze/50% water coolant mix and at least two good separate engine grounds to the cars frame helps but get out a multi meter and test for voltage in coolant, (more info in links)...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

 

[grumpyvette]

want to avoid all the reading below.....use distilled water and new coolant every 2 years in a 50%/50% mix, and in most cases I prefer the green stuff, from TEXACO

http://www.texaco.com/yourcar/havolinec ... oolant.asp

This is from Motor, a trade magazine for professional mechanics, that might answer a lot of coolant questions. From 1999

"First of all, forget coolant color; it's just a dye and means nothing. GM and Texaco, which codeveloped the Dex-Cool brand of OAT (organic acid technology) antifreeze for late-model GM vehicles, picked orange to distinguish this type of antifreeze from conventional American coolant, which is green or gold. Volkswagen, which also uses an OAT formulation as mentioned earlier, has a similar dye that most of us think is pink. Toyota's traditional red dye is a totally different product. Although the orange coolant in Chrysler L/H models contains OAT, it's a custom hybrid, with Chrysler specifically forbidding the use of Dex-Cool in these cars. It would have been better if Chrysler had used some other dye color.

What kinds of coolants are out there? Aside from the limited sale of propylene glycol to environmentalists, it's ethylene glycol... about 93% ethylene glycol, that is, plus water and specific rust and corrosion inhibitors. Here's a rundown:

Conventional American coolant (green or gold) contains silicates (a long-used aluminum corrosion inhibitor) and other inhibitors. Silicates work quickly to protect aluminum, but also are depleted relatively quickly in service. They're also somewhat abrasive (being based on silicon-sand), so they've been implicated in water pump seal wear. Advocates say tests show silicates last longer than was commonly believed. And with the latest seal materials, they actually do a better job of protecting the water pump, because they both resist cavitation erosion-corrosion and "repair" any that occurs.

OAT coolant (orange or pink) contains no silicates and no phosphates. It's a blend of two or more organic acids, a specific class of inhibitors with slow-acting, long-life properties. Texaco's Havoline Dex-Cool (also sold under the Goodwrench label by GM) was the first example. Prestone and Peak also have introduced OAT coolants that are chemically compatible with Dex-Cool.

Conventional Japanese coolant (green or red) contains no silicates, but has a heavy dose of phosphates and other inhibitors, including a modest amount of one or two organic acids.

Conventional European coolant (blue or yellow) contains a low dose of silicates and no phosphates, but does include other inhibitors, including one organic acid.

Hybrid European coolant (blue or green) is similar to conventional European, but with a much greater dose of organic acids. It's a balanced formula designed to have the silicates provide the primary protection for the aluminum, then allow the organic acids to provide long-term protection.

Hybrid American coolant (green or orange) contains a moderate dose of silicates, plus a blend of organic acids.

So with all these coolants around, who uses what?

GM cars and light trucks built since the 1996 model year use Dex-Cool OAT. VW/Audis since 1998 use an OAT, but it's a different formula. The '99 Mercury Cougar uses an OAT-type coolant that's reportedly similar to Dex-Cool.


Except for the '99 Cougar, Ford U.S. vehicles use conventional American antifreeze. And except for the hybrid coolant in '98-on L/H cars (Intrepid, Concorde, 300M), so do Daimler/Chrysler U.S. vehicles.


Mercedes uses a conventional European antifreeze that has been upgraded, and may outlast the conventional stuff.


GM Opel products sold here (namely the Cadillac Catera) use Dex-Cool.


Volvos and BMWs use a hybrid European.


Japanese cars use a conventional Japanese coolant.


Korean cars use either a conventional Japanese or conventional European antifreeze. (It depends on who did the in-depth engineering for the Korean company.)


Medium-duty and heavy-duty diesel vehicles should use specific formulas, with additives that meet recommended practices of the American Trucking Association's Maintenance Council. Some OEMs use specific OAT formulations. Cummins, on the other hand, forbids pure OATs, and recommends a specific silicate-containing hybrid with heavy-duty additives as part of a "lifetime" fill maintenance program.

Some problems exist when you mix OAT coolants with the conventional stuff, or when you do an OAT retrofit. Much evidence points to the fact that if you mix conventional American antifreeze (silicated) with an OAT type in a system with virgin aluminum (that's not protected by either type), severe corrosion will result. The producers of OAT coolants approve their use in any system, provided it's been thoroughly flushed out first.
NARSA's position is more conservative (factoring in the issues raised by the vehicle makers), and is based on the assumption that all you can obtain for service is conventional American green/gold or an American orange OAT. NARSA still recommends conventional American green/gold antifreeze. Specifically, NARSA recommends the following:

Use Dex-Cool or an aftermarket OAT only in GM cars that were factory-filled with Dex-Cool. Although you can top up with any of the three OATs available, the best practice is to flush out the system first, to remove at least 90% of the old coolant.


Do not use an OAT antifreeze in any Ford product aside from the '99 Cougar. It may attack certain gasket materials (particularly in Ford modular V8s). It also can be responsible for water pump cavitation erosion-corrosion, reports Ford.


Do not use an OAT coolant in any Chrysler product. OAT has been shown to increase damage from water pump cavitation erosion-corrosion, particularly in some truck V8s. If you can't get the specific Chrysler orange hybrid, flush out the system and install a conventional American antifreeze.


In European cars equipped with a hybrid or conventional European antifreeze, use a conventional American silicated antifreeze.


In Japanese cars equipped with silicate-free coolant, rely on this bit of history: These coolants never were sold in any quantity in the U.S. Japanese cars seem to survive nicely on conventional American products, so the safe approach is to stick with them. Both Japanese silicate-free and conventional American coolants contain phosphates, so they share that key inhibitor.


On heavy-duty vehicles, stick with the OE recommendations.


For temporary use, as in a roadside emergency, mixing different coolants is better than using just plain water. But the system should be flushed out and refilled with the correct coolant as soon as possible.

What if a customer insists on a retrofit to get long coolant life? Widely reported tests by Valvoline-Zerex and Prestone indicate that cooling system protection with conventional American silicated antifreeze can last for 5 years/100,000 miles if the system has been maintained well from the start. That means being continuously topped up and the antifreeze concentration maintained at 50% to 60%. That same treatment, by the way, is needed to enable an OAT antifreeze to safely go 150,000 miles in the five-year period. In any case, the quality of the water, which is half the fill, may be as big an issue as concentration.
There are reports that NARSA is pushing distilled water. Who wants to bother with that, you ask? The answer: If you're in an area where the water is very hard and the shop doesn't have a water softener, why not? A gallon of distilled water is cheap insurance. How important is coolant concentration to system longevity? When the specified 50/50 mix gets too low-maybe 20% antifreeze-that's an area where any antifreeze (silicated or OAT) can face a problem. Other radiator and heater corrosion problems occur when a poor job is done on removing old coolant, which may be so bad that a fresh fill of either type also turns bad very quickly. This problem has surfaced on systems using conventional American silicated antifreeze.

Some problems have been reported with systems using Dex-Cool. Although aluminum is considered the most sensitive material for coolant performance, GM also has been dealing with cast-iron rusting problems on Chevy/GMC S-10s with the 4.3-liter V6. The problem, first reported by NARSA member shops, seems to be in still another but related category-low coolant level. No one is sure why the 4.3-liter V6 is so sensitive to a low coolant level, but it's causing rusty sludge buildup in the radiator and heater. GM will release a choice of flushing procedures shortly. You can top this one up, but make darn sure it's with a 50/50 mix.

There are some special precautions to take when performing mechanical repairs on a vehicle's cooling system. The first, obviously, is to never mix coolants. Another is that if the system contains an OAT and the customer wants to maintain the long-term service interval, stick with an aluminum radiator. Remember, OAT coolants contain a copper-brass corrosion inhibitor but may not protect adequately against lead solder, particularly high-lead solder. That concern originally was recognized by GM, which prohibited retrofitting its Dex-Cool OAT to older models with copper-brass radiators. Now, GM's tech service people say they can't approve any retrofit of Dex-Cool into any system that was factory-filled with a conventional American silicated antifreeze.

What replacement intervals you follow depends on which type of coolant is used and the type of service the vehicle will see. With conventional American green/gold, if the system is kept full with a 50% to 60% mixture of a quality coolant, a replacement interval of 2 years/30,000 miles is incredibly conservative. Chrysler and Ford long have approved about 3 years/50,000 miles, and there's evidence that even these intervals are conservative for a well-maintained system. If the mix is diluted further, all bets are off.

With a quality OAT coolant, if the system is kept full with a 50% to 60% mixture, the 5-year/150,000-mile interval is fine. If the coolant is diluted, corrosion problems could crop up.

The real world says that medium/ heavy-duty diesels don't get a coolant change, that the factory fill is run until it's time for an engine overhaul. Both Cummins with its hybrid coolant and Texaco with its heavy-duty OAT have supplementary additive packages to extend the life of the factory fill. Cummins recommends installing an additive package (or a new coolant filter, which also contains the additives, depending on application) at 150,000-mile intervals (about once a year). Texaco recommends using its additive package at 300,000-mile intervals (about every two years)."

 

[grumpyvette]

Motor Magazine has a new article up. The old one was very good, but this is worth a read...

http://www.motor.com/article.asp?article_ID=1655

"Advertising claims by some antifreeze producers to the contrary notwithstanding, these OATs—certainly DexCool—are not universal coolants. You should use them only in General Motors products, VW/Audi through the 2009 model year and Ford vehicles where the reservoir label says so. "

Cooling System Service

By Paul Weissler | August 2010


If you’re looking for a ‘one size fits all’ strategy, your best bet is to stick with tube socks and steer clear of modern cooling systems. These systems won’t tolerate substitution of inappropriate or—worse—incompatible coolants.

In all the years we’ve been reporting on cooling systems, we’ve never seen the antifreeze situation more confusing. While the dye colors being used seem to have exhausted the rainbow, we hope most technicians have learned that the color of the antifreeze dye has nothing to do with the corrosion protection formula for the ethylene glycol-based fluid. At each individual car manufacturer, the procedure is to change the dye color of its assembly line coolant when the formula is changed, although Honda changed from dark green to dark blue while retaining the same formula.

The what-to-use issue became even cloudier this year as Ford began a multiyear changeover to a single worldwide antifreeze. It had a choice of three formulas that it’s currently using on domestic products. We’ll spare you the suspense: Ford is moving to the orange-red OAT (organic acid technology) antifreeze/coolant it uses in all of its European vehicles, and that tells you that even more Ford of Europe engineering is coming here. At present, we have the Transit Connect panel van imported from Turkey, and the Fiesta economy car, engineered in Europe, that’s being built for the North American market in a plant in Mexico.

Ford’s coolant reservoir labeling adds to the confusion. The label on the 3.5/3.7 V6s on the Lincoln MKT says “no orange,” even though Ford is in the process of converting to it. It’s not the current factory fill, and Ford doesn’t want the present OE protection formula adversely affected.

The new F-Series heavy-duty models have two new U.S.-built V8 engines—a 6.7L diesel and a 6.2L gasoline version. The new Mustang also has a new gasoline V8—5.0L, to go with the 3.5 V6. These new engines are factory-filled with the OAT coolant. And in case you’re wondering, that OAT is a DexCool clone—basically what General Motors has been using since 1996.

One worldwide coolant makes a lot of logistical sense, and even saves Ford some money. But using an OAT coolant does require a lot of specific engineering, as GM learned, so Ford is going slow. The company actually will phase out engines (such as the 4.6 and 5.4 V8s) rather than attempt to convert them from the yellow dye hybrid OAT (H-OAT) it has been using in most of its domestic products since 2002.

This go-slow approach should tell you that, beyond any doubt, you shouldn’t use an OAT coolant in any Ford product for which it was not specifically engineered. That’s not our statement (although we believe it); it’s from Ford, and for good reasons. Also, don’t use it where it may eventually go—for example, in the 3.5/3.7 V6s.

Advertising claims by some antifreeze producers to the contrary notwithstanding, these OATs—certainly DexCool—are not universal coolants. You should use them only in General Motors products, VW/Audi through the 2009 model year and Ford vehicles where the reservoir label says so. After all, if it didn’t matter, Ford would put an OAT antifreeze in all of its engines, including the 4.6 and 5.4L V8s. Obviously, it does matter. Furthermore, you should use an antifreeze that isn’t just compatible with what’s in the system, but one that has a similar inhibitor formula (mimics it), so the inhibitors in there are boosted, rather than diluted by something else.

As a result, the only recommendations we cite are in that category. For example, we wouldn’t advise an Asian formula that didn’t contain phosphate, or in most European cars (OAT-fills excepted) an antifreeze that didn’t contain silicates. Nor would we consider a conventional American green formula with both silicates and phosphates for those vehicles whose formulas contain silicates or phosphates.

Here’s the background on these recommendations and the issues behind them:

Silicated H-OAT antifreeze uses the popular inorganic inhibitor silicate, which not only protects aluminum very well, but also provides fast protection. That’s particularly important in case a water pump cavitates (imploding coolant bubbles that pockmark the chamber). When left unprotected, the pockmarks corrode, causing the pump to fail). The organic acid is called benzoate, and its effectiveness in combination with silicates is well established. The antifreeze inhibitor package also contains a copper/ brass inhibitor, either BZT (benzotriazole) or TTZ (tolyltriazole), to protect any small copper parts used and any service parts that may be installed later.

Ford has used this silicated H-OAT formula since the 2002 model year, Mercedes even longer (over 20 years)—it’s the yellow OE coolant, the aftermarket equivalent being Zerex G-05 or Havoline Custom Made. Chrysler also uses it, but the OE stuff has orange dye, so don’t confuse it with DexCool. This silicated H-OAT antifreeze also contains nitrite, which enables it to protect diesels against cylinder liner vibration-caused pitting. That’s one thing Mercedes likes about it, as does Chrysler for its Cummins diesel engines.

The third coolant also is an H-OAT, but this one—preferred by Asian carmakers—uses phosphates instead of silicates. Phosphates quickly reprotect a cavitation-pockmarked pump, plus the Asian makers use BZT or TTZ to protect copper/brass. In Ford and Mazda products, particularly the 3.5/3.7L V6s, the dye is deep green. Other Asian makers may have pink dye (Toyota/Lexus) or blue (Honda). The organic acid is sebacate, as Asian makers refuse to use the chemical ingredient ethyl hexanoate (2-EHA), primarily because it affects gasket materials. They also dislike silicates because in some tests they run, silicates form a gel that could plug passages. Gel formation and plugging is not particularly a real-world issue with the low silicate content in the silicated H-OAT antifreeze. In fact, the only cases we’ve seen where there was real plugging (as opposed to relatively minor deposits) were with higher silicate content in older antifreeze formulas. And even that gel-plugging was rarely seen, unless a vehicle had been sitting unused, in which case the silicates may have dropped out. Silicate dropout, however, also may occur if the antifreeze has been sitting on the shelf for a few years or more.

For overall protection, though, silicates beat phosphates. But to maintain the original Asian antifreeze protection, you want the phosphated H-OAT. There’s finally an aftermarket formula you can buy—Zerex Asian Long Life. The dye color is a shade of pink, but it matches up well chemically with all the Asian vehicle antifreezes, regardless of color. In fact, it’s the same formula that’s used by Hyundai, despite the different dye color (Hyundai’s is blue-green).

No antifreeze is perfect, and that certainly includes an OAT. The OAT contains 2-EHA, and usually in combination with sebacate. So the formula is these two organic acids, plus TTZ for copper/brass.

OAT antifreezes last a long time, but also take a long time—about 5000 miles—to establish protection for cooling system passages. And the slow action means they can’t quickly protect water pumps that are pockmarked by cavitation. So the pump and cooling system must be engineered to minimize cavitation, which is primarily a high-load issue. The chemical 2-EHA causes leaks in silicone rubber gaskets and Nylon 66 gasket carriers, so they must be avoided.

Because OAT antifreezes protect best when the system is absolutely full, which means the coolant is in contact with the walls of the system, maintaining a full fill becomes another issue. This is particularly important with cast-iron engine blocks, where a low level causes rust “blushing” on cooling system walls, a pickup of the rust from coolant flow and deposits in the radiator (see the photo on page 26).

Although Ford cars have all-aluminum engines, the Super-Duty F-Series truck has the new 6.2L gasoline V8 and 6.7L diesel V8, both with cast-iron blocks. Low coolant level also can affect aluminum heads, so always check the coolant level whenever a vehicle is in for service. If it has a pressurized reservoir, you can check that level easily. If the pressure cap is on the radiator, remove it to make sure the system is topped up; a high level in an atmospheric reservoir doesn’t guarantee the system is full.

Ford designed all of its European engines to minimize water pump cavitation, and where possible, it did the same on its U.S. engines (the 3.5 and 3.7L V6s and the I-4s), so they could live with the OAT antifreeze. No such luck with the 4.6/5.4L V8s, which, along with the gasket issue, is why they continue to have the silicated H-OAT until those engines are history.

Ford has been particularly sensitive to guarding against low coolant level, which was responsible for the rust “blush” plugging of radiators on some GM cast-iron V6 and V8 engines.

Most Ford engines, not just the cast-iron types, have cylinder head temperature sensors, and in some cases on engines already equipped with coolant temperature sensors and even low-coolant-level sensors in the reservoirs. Ford in particular uses the head sensors, for a low coolant strategy that puts the engine into a limp-along mode to protect against warping or worse.

Ford also was alert to the cylinder liner pitting issue. You can’t use nitrite in the OAT formulation—it’s a bad mixture. So the new 6.7L diesel was engineered to minimize piston slap. The small amount of protection an OAT coolant provides will be enough to prevent liner pitting, Ford says.

An important service lesson, in addition to continuing with whatever is the Ford OE antifreeze: Service parts could be an issue, particularly water pumps and those gaskets that seal coolant passages. Many head gaskets, for example, have silicone sealing rings for the coolant flow holes, and you wouldn’t want to use them for engines with an OAT coolant. Ford has all-metal gaskets for the OAT-equipped engines, Motor was told.

Aftermarket suppliers have been alerted to the water pump (design for minimum cavitation) and gasket issues, and the reputable ones surely will engineer appropriate new parts. However, you just might get an aftermarket gasket that was made for the 3.5/3.7 V6s before the coolant change, and if it were made with silicone rubber (or with Nylon 66), it might create a service issue when Ford changes the V6 to an OAT coolant. So a coolant-passage-sealing gasket for a Ford engine that has been changed over to an OAT antifreeze should be an object of caution, if the gasket has been sitting on a parts jobber’s shelf for years.

Ford is not pushing the service life envelope very much with the OAT coolant. It’s 6 years/100,000 miles for the factory fill and every 3 years/50,000 miles thereafter. On the new diesel it’s 6/105 for the factory fill in “normal” service and just 2400 hours/60,000 miles in “severe” service (lots of idling, heavy loads—the usual truck stuff). The diesel service interval thereafter is just 3 years/45,000 miles in “normal” service, but 1800 hours/45,000 miles in “severe” service.

A likely reason for the shorter service interval after the factory fill is replaced is that Ford uses deionized water for the 50/50 mix on the assembly line, and although it would like to see the aftermarket do the same, it obviously isn’t taking bets that will happen. Because an OAT coolant takes about 5000 miles to establish protection, using pure water for the factory-fill mixture obviously helps protect the system until the mixture has done its job.

But we also would note that antifreeze lasts longer if the water with which it’s mixed is free of minerals and other content. You also can use distilled water for service, if that’s easier to get. A gallon jug is maybe a buck or so, and we think it’s a great investment for any well-maintained cooling system. It’s also a plus to which you can point proudly when you hand a customer the bill and explain why your shop does a better job.

 

[grumpyvette]

I googled then found this

Anti-Freeze DOES Burn

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Monday, January 11, 2010 Recently we experienced an engine fire in a large haul truck. Other than the overall size of the truck, the basic configuration of the motor, turbocharger, coolant system, etc., is quite similar to other heavy duty trucks.

The fire, and resultant damage, was minor due to quick action by nearby maintenance personnel responding with a dry chem. fire extinguisher. The driver stated he could smell anti-freeze in the cab of the truck, however assumed it was a minor leak and continued to drive the truck to find a good place to pull over to inspect the problem without blocking other traffic. Other personnel that saw the truck go by noticed a coolant leak in the engine compartment (off side mounted engine) and gave notice to the driver via radio. The driver stopped and as he walked around the truck to inspect the problem he saw a fire in the engine compartment. The flames were reported to be a distinctive blue color. The driver stated at no time was there any yellow color to the flames. The fire progressed in size quickly until extinguished w/ a hand held 10 lb. dry chem. FE. The on-board self-contained fire suppression system was not discharged.

An investigation revealed a flex coupling ruptured. This coupling joined two hard lines carrying coolant. Coolant under pressure was sprayed all over the engine compartment including in the vicinity of the turbocharger. The hard lines w/ coupler was located directly on top of the valve cover of the motor. The source of the ignition of the fire could not be determined until information regarding ethylene glycol was researched. Ethylene glycol has an auto-ignition temperature of 748 deg. F., and will flash burn at lower temperatures if atomized in the vicinity of temp.’s at or greater than 250 deg. F. Turbochargers typically demonstrate temperatures well in excess of these numbers. A coolant mix of water and ethylene glycol based anti-freeze in the presence of these high temperatures will decompose the water out of solution and the remaining ethylene glycol may undergo auto-ignition. The resulting fire may be similar to an alcohol fire, resulting in a blue flame.

See below for more information on ethylene glycol. In particular, see the section on “industrial hazards”. All in all I found this article very interesting. Ethylene glycol is used for many purposes other than for coolant, including (at one time) the manufacture of explosives, including dynamite. Something to think about, perhaps, as you are pouring your favorite coolant into your radiator! Read on:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethylene_glycol

Also, this information is taken from the MSDS for CITGO Antifreeze and Coolant (MSDS # 657201001):

All in all we learned some very interesting information from this incident. All heavy truck operators should be advised to stop and investigate any incident of odors of coolant, in the cab or outside the cab in the area of the motor. Report and/or repair leaks immediately. The time spent may save a great deal of damage, even preventing a fire.

dang, how many times have I driven along smelling antifreeze thinking "no biggie"

 

[grumpyvette]

“Some racers have the mistaken belief that antifreeze improves cooling efficiency.”

With winter fast approaching, it’s the time of year when people start thinking about preparing their cars for cold weather. Anyone who lives in the Snow Belt knows that antifreeze is an essential part of winter survival. But I’m going to make the recommendation that you should never use antifreeze in a drag race engine.

I’m amazed that so many racers use antifreeze in their motors. I think that some racers have the mistaken belief that antifreeze improves cooling efficiency. In fact, the exact opposite is true: antifreeze reduces cooling capacity compared to plain water.

I’m certainly not Mr. Science when it comes to chemistry, but the facts on antifreeze are readily available. Automotive antifreeze is typically ethylene glycol or its less toxic relative, propylene glycol. Both of these alcohols have lower freezing points and higher boiling points than pure water. While these are important qualities for street-driven automobiles, they are irrelevant to a dedicated drag race car.

Here is a comparison of the properties of water and ethylene glycol antifreeze:

Water Ethylene Glycol 50/50 water/glycol solution
Freezing Point 32F 8.6F -36F
Boiling Point 212F 387F 225F
Specific Heat 1.00 .57 .81
Latent Heat of Vaporization 540 cal/g 226 cal/g 374 cal/g
Thermal Conductivity .60 .25 .41
Obviously antifreeze protects an engine at extremely cold and extremely hot temperatures; that’s why it is used in street-driven engines. But a racing engine doesn’t sit overnight in a subzero parking garage in Minnesota, and it isn’t driven across the Nevada desert with the air conditioning turned on. If you’re going to store your race car in an unheated garage for the winter or transport it in freezing temperatures, simply drain the coolant.

Characteristics that are much more important for racers are the coolant’s specific heat, latent heat of vaporization and thermal conductivity. These qualities are directly related to the cooling capacity, and it’s clear that water is an excellent coolant.

The specific heat capacity of a liquid is defined as the heat required to raise its temperature by one degree. A liquid with a high specific heat has more capacity to absorb heat than a liquid with a lower specific heat. In the table shown here, pure ethylene glycol has a specific heat value that is only 57 percent of water. A 50/50 water/antifreeze mixture has a heat capacity that is almost 20 percent less than plain water. Auto manufacturers compensate for this lower cooling capacity of water/glycol mixtures by increasing the volume of the cooling systems in production cars, but drag racers don’t want or need big, heavy radiators and pumps.

Another important property of coolant is latent heat of vaporization, which is the energy required to change a liquid into a vapor. It takes nearly 2.4 times as much energy to boil water as it does to boil antifreeze. This high latent heat of vaporization is desirable because it draws heat from localized hot spots that occur around the exhaust valves, exhaust ports and combustion chambers. Even though the overall temperature of the cooling system may be below the boiling point, this phenomenon of localized boiling is important in controlling temperatures and preventing preignition in areas of intense heat. The efficiency of water as a coolant can be made even better by using a wetting agent to reduce its surface tension, improving heat transfer from the metal to the liquid.

If the scientific argument doesn’t convince you to use plain water in your drag race engine, then all you have to do is see what happens when antifreeze gets into the oil. It doesn’t take much glycol seeping into the engine through an internal leak to wipe out the bearings and gall the piston skirts. Antifreeze is very nasty stuff when mixed with motor oil.

The best way to keep your race car cool is simply not to warm up the engine excessively. I shake my head when I see racers running their engines for minutes in the pits and staging lanes. Maybe that’s a holdover from the days when everyone ran heavyweight oil. If you’re using appropriate light viscosity oil, you simply don’t need to warm up the engine for an extended period.

Some racers think a warm engine improves throttle response, but that’s only a factor if you’re a foot-brake racer. Virtually every drag race car that uses a transbrake or a two-step rev limiter leaves the starting line with its throttle blades open, so response is a non-issue.

A cool engine makes more power than a hot engine. We know that from dyno tests, and we know that from time slips and lap times. If you walk through a NASCAR garage before Nextel Cup qualifying, you’ll need hip boots because the teams use shock cooling systems to lower their engines’ temperatures to 60 degrees before a qualifying run. If you’re a Top Sportsman, Top Dragster or Quick 32 racer who needs every bit of e.t., then you want a cold engine on the starting line.

My recommendation is to bring the engine to the line at around 100 degrees. Depending on the volume and efficiency of your cooling system, the coolant temperature will probably be around 140 degrees at the finish line. The goal is to keep the coolant temperature under control; once an engine gets hot, then it is much more difficult for the cooling system to bring the temperature back down. This is especially important in the late rounds when cars are called back to the staging lanes quickly.

When you’re trying to run as quick as you can, you don’t want a heat-soaked engine – and you certainly don’t want antifreeze in it.

 

[87vette81big]

What is your Favorite Water Wetter Agent you use yourself Grumpy ?
I know it gets real hot and humid in Florida .
July & August can be brutal heat in Illinois also.

The only car I used straight Distilled water in the past was my Trans Am.
I also used 1 bottle of Redline water wetter coolant additive.
160 F Thermostat .
The engine loves 160-170 F water temps.
Run full ignition advance and all in by 1100 Rpms.
High Test Aviation 100 LL Gas.
Run it hard I use 110 Race gas.

Most drag race engines I have seen have severe corrosion issues .
Straight water used.

Redline water wetter does a nice job protecting iron and aluminum .
The Pontiac Aluminum timing cover and aluminum intake.

Fall I added 15% Green antifreeze mix.
November I made a 50/50 % Green antifreeze mix for the winter.

5 gallon total coolant capacity on the car.

 

[87vette81big]

Pretty crazy that Antifreeze will ignite.
Never knew that fact till today.

 

[Grumpy]

PRODUCT INSTALLS / TECH / TECH ARTICLES
The Waterless Option: Examining Waterless Coolant and Why It Might be Right for You
Posted by David Fuller on March 4, 2016 at 11:12 am

Since the 1930s, hot rodders and performance car enthusiasts have relied primarily on engine coolants made from a mix of ethylene glycol, water, and corrosion inhibitors. While these water-based coolants have done an admirable job of cooling, history shows they can be prone to overheating, boil-over, and after-boil conditions at high operating temperatures.

In other words, traditional water-based coolants are susceptible to traditional cooling system problems.

According to Evans Cooling, there’s a better, more effective way to cool your engine — and it doesn’t include water. The company has developed a line of waterless coolants that consist of a propriety, water-free base fluid that doesn’t have the physical and chemical limitations of water.

Evans Cooling Waterless Solution
By eliminating water from its coolant formula, Evans Cooling says its waterless coolant offers three main advantages over traditional water-based coolant:

No Overheating
What’s worse than that plume of steam coming from your hood? How about seeing the coolant actually boil over and overflow from your radiator? If you’ve ever owned an old car with a non-pressurized cooling system, you may have enjoyed the experience once or twice.

Evans Cooling says it has eliminated the overheating problem altogether by removing water from its coolant formula. While water begins to boil at 212 degrees F — very close to the operating temperature of an engine — Evans uses a propriety liquid that it claims has a boiling point of over 375 degrees F.

Here’s why that’s important:

When water reaches its relatively low boiling point, it begins to vaporize. Since vapor is about 97 percent less effective than liquid at conducting heat, it reduces the coolant’s overall ability to do its job. This vapor is most likely to occur around the hottest parts of the cylinder head — right where the cooling is needed most. What’s more, localized vapor pockets can build up around these hot spots and actually create a barrier between the hot surface and the coolant, preventing the necessary heat transfer. This makes the metal even hotter, worsens the overheating, and can potentially lead to cylinder head warping and detonation.

This overheating and thermal stress on metal parts can lead to:

• Pre-ignition
• Reduced combustion efficiency (loss of power)
• Erosion caused by pitting on the cylinder heads, pump, and other areas
• Cavitation when combined with pressure drops in the water pump
• Leaks due to cylinder head surface warping

The higher boiling point of Evans waterless coolant ensures the coolant remains a liquid at all times, maintaining effective cooling. And since the 375-degree boiling point is considerably higher than the operating temperature of most engines, any localized vapor is absorbed back into nearby coolant, which remains way below its boiling point.

Oh yeah — and since there’s no water in the coolant, you never have to worry about boil-over or after-boil, either.

No Pressure
When coolant vaporizes, it creates added pressure within the cooling system. This puts stress on hoses, connections, and other components within the cooling system. Because Evans Cooling Waterless Coolant is much less likely to vaporize, it reduces this stress and can eliminate the expense of replacing ruptured hoses or damaged components.

No Corrosion
It’s simple — water causes corrosion.

Although corrosion inhibitors have evolved over the years, current water-based antifreeze formulations regularly fail to prevent cavitation, oxidation, and galvanic action that can damage pumps, radiators, and other metal components. Corrosion build-up, inhibitor drop-out, and lime-scale precipitation significantly reduce heat transfer efficiency and accelerate overheating.

Evans waterless coolants prevent corrosion in a cooling system.

How to Convert to Waterless Coolant

Evans Cooling High Performance Waterless Engine Coolant

Once you’ve decided the switch to waterless coolant is the right choice, there are some very specific steps you must follow for a seamless transition. First and foremost, all existing water-based coolant must be drained from the system. The water content of your Evans Cooling coolant should not exceed more than 3 percent to be effective, so the company recommends the use of its Prep Fluid to absorb any residual water or coolant. Also, the system should undergo a chemical flush if any contamination is observed.

Below is Evans Cooling’s basic process for converting to waterless coolant. Unlike traditional coolants, which should be changed periodically, Evans Cooling Waterless Coolant lasts the life of the engine and requires no topping as long as the cooling system is leak-free. That means once the conversion is made, you’re good to go.





Drain the System

1. Once the engine has cooled, remove the pressure cap and open all drain valves and plugs, along with bleeder or petcock vents, if present.
2. Drain all parts of the system, including radiator, coolant reservoir, engine block, and heater. Draining the system only from the bottom of the radiator removes less than half of the system capacity. You should use high-volume/low pressure air to gently blow out various parts of the system. If accessible, blow out the heater circuit, blowing only in the direction from the hot coolant source (generally, the cylinder head) toward the coolant return (generally, the inlet to the coolant pump). Ensure that the heater control valve is open before applying the air.
3. Block drains are frequently inaccessible, ineffective, or non-existent, and considerable amounts of coolant can remain in the block. Removal of the thermostat provides an opening to the engine where high volume air can be blown through the head and block, pushing old coolant past the coolant pump and out through the bottom radiator hose or radiator drain. For V6 and V8 engines with inaccessible block drains or no block drains, refer to www.evanscooling.com for special procedures to achieve a proper conversion.
4. Engines having an “inlet side” thermostat and a good block drain does not require removal of the thermostat. With the block drain open, air blown toward the engine through the top radiator hose will purge the residual coolant in the block.
5. Empty the overflow bottle completely, if the vehicle is equipped with one. If the system has a pressurized expansion tank, blow air into it to make sure it is empty.

Evans Cooling Prep Fluid

Purge the System

1. Close all drain valves, plugs, and vents and reconnect circuits. If the engine is equipped with a coolant filter (heavy duty systems), replace the filter with one that does not introduce coolant additives.
2. Fill the system with Prep Fluid to flush parts of the cooling system suspected of harboring residual coolant or water. Vent as needed to ensure a complete fill.
3. Replace the pressure cap and run the engine with the heater on (at the highest temperature) for 10 minutes after reaching operating temperature (thermostat open).
4. Repeat the sequence given in step 1 to drain the used Prep Fluid.

Refill the System

1. Close all drain valves, plugs and vents, and reconnect all circuits.
2. Fill the system completely with the appropriate Evans Cooling Waterless Coolant, and start engine. Add coolant as needed to keep system full. If system is equipped with a vented overflow bottle, leave it empty for now.
3. Replace the pressure cap and run engine with the heater on (at the highest temperature) for 10 minutes after reaching operating temperature (thermostat open). Shut off the engine and allow the system to cool.

Test the Coolant

1. Draw a sample of well-circulated coolant from the radiator or pressurized overflow reservoir. Check the water content using a refractometer or test strips once the coolant reaches room temperature. Be careful to minimize exposure of the coolant to air during testing.
2. If the above procedure has been rigorously followed, the water content of the coolant should be within specification (below 3 percent). If the water content exceeds 3 percent, run the system again to operating temperature and allow sufficient time for the thermostat to open and fluid to circulate through the radiator. Repeat sampling and water content test. If the water content still exceeds the limit, you can see the remediation procedure here.
3. If the water content is 3 percent or less, the equipment is ready for use. Ensure the overflow bottle or expansion tank is filled to the “cold” mark with Evans Waterless Coolant. Place Evans warning stickers in strategic locations (radiator cap, radiator shroud, overflow bottle, expansion tank) to warn against adding water or water-based coolant to the system.
4. Upon cool-down and for a few days after, you may need to add small amounts of Evans Waterless Coolant. Whether the system has a pressurized expansion tank or an overflow bottle, the coolant level should be at the cold line when the engine is cold.

 

[87vette81big]

That Evans Waterless Coolant is $45 per gallon Grumpy.
5 gallons is what My 1970-1/2 Trans Am Holds total exact with the Special HD Factory Brass & Copper 4-core Radiator used on the Ram Air IV -4 Cars.
5X45 is alot of $$$.
Azz expensive.
Buy a lot of Race Gas Fuel 110 motor octane.
Nitromethane too.

 

[87vette81big]

The Heavy Duty Diesel Semi Trucks I work on daily use special antifreeze rated for 1,000,000 miles.
Others rated Lifetime.
50/50 Water & Antifreeze. Most are pre mixed.
I will research more and report later.
Lots of Cast Iron, Aluminum and Copper Brass Present .15-20 gallon cooling systems.
Engines work real hard pulling 100,000 #pound loads 65-70 mph.
Outlaws run 90-100mph non stop for hours. Just Like Smokey & The Bandit .
http://www.contactmagazine.com/Issue54/EngineBasics.html

 

[Grumpy]

yes its a darn expensive option!