Balancing Your Choice In Handgun Power Vs Shot Capacity In A Defensive Handgun

[Grumpy]

one of the guys I handload for and occasionally hunt with, brought his single action ruger 480 handgun over and showed me an inside the waistband concealed carry holster he had a local shop fabricate for that revolver,
he asked me if I thought the revolver was a good choice for concealed carry use?
(similar to picture below)
I have to think he's watched the movies like
"the GOOD, THE BAD and THE UGLY " with the clint eastwood character too many times
yes without any doubt, a 480 ruger properly loaded would provide impressive power,
but its too large and slow
(single action)
(and only six shot capacity with significant recoil)
to use as a primary defensive tool in most people's hands
sure it's doable if you practice extensively, but a 10-17 shot pistol like a,
SIG, S&W, GLOCK ETC. might be a better option in a caliber like,
9mm,40 S&W,45 acp, 38 super, 10mm, as a few popular choices
a 6.5" barrel single action in an inside the waistband holster,
with nearly twice the power and recoil ,of a 44 mag..
has a few potential issues in my opinion

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When it comes to stopping power, 10mm vs 357 is too close to call. Both are exceptional self-defense rounds, but can a magnum revolver defeat a semi-auto handgun?

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\https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uZgmopVd3Ao

I broke up laughing at that idea
I said some defense attorney, for the two guys widows who were behind the guy you shoot, during a robbery, while he was robbing you, might think so, but personally, I think there's better choices, once a bullet exits the intended target extra power is wasted, and you damn sure won't get rapid repeated shots on target either
(not that you'll need to if the first center mass shot connects)
RAPIDLY APPLIED & CORRECT SHOT PLACEMENT,
MATCHED TO ADEQUATE PENETRATION,
and a KNOWLEDGE OF THE OPPONENTS ANATOMY AND VITAL ORGAN LOCATION< ARE
the most critical factor's in handgun effective usage!
I reminded him that there is a rather nice double action ruger snub nose revolver available and he can hand load ammo down to more reasonable power levels than the 400 grain handloads at near 1200 fps he is currently using, a lighter weight 275 grain bullet at near 900 fps certainly would be fully adequate

https://www.speer.com/bullets/handgun_bullets/deepcurl_handgun_hunting/19-3973.html

speer sells a decent 275 grain hollow point bullet for that use
Id have started with 9- 10 grains of unique powder


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...with-a-neighbors-new-480-ruger-handgun.16011/

I would suppose the first few questions you would rather reasonably ask yourself would be...
if its a defensive tool,
it is almost by definition designed to be used at rather close ranges
CERTAINLY MOST OF THE TIME AT WELL UNDER 50 yards .
and the vast majority of the time at under 15 yards

(1)
what or who are ,and potentially how many potential adversaries,
are you defending yourself against?
(2)
what are the most likely range and time limitations involved
(3)
will this weapon choice ,be used for concealed carry use?
(4)
is the choice of my equipment or my options legal in the area I will be in?
(5)
how dependable and effective will my choice be?
(6)
how often can I train with and how much skill is required in its use?
(7)
how likely is it that you can avoid any confrontation?
(8)
how many cartridges does the handgun hold and
how fast can I reload ?
(9)
how fast and how accurately can YOU SHOOT THE HANDGUN?


I can tell you after reading various accounts from survivors, that the average distance in the vast majority of cases,
I read about involving either ANIMAL or an ANTAGONIST CRIMINAL
the attack will be carried out from MUCH closer distances and allow you far less time to grasp the situation and react before you may be seriously injured than most people might think.
there is no magic bullet or best cartridge, shot placement and given no other option other than fight or die
... In most cases, survivors stated that rapid, repeated and accurate shots on target are the critical factor in a good defense,
having read hundreds of accounts of muggings, home invasions, and various attacks by animals its statistically rare to have more than 4-6 shots fired, or more than a 2-4 seconds window, available for the intended victim to arm and prepare or have a shot taken at the threat, or have the threat at more than 20 feet.
people generally are far easier to repel or disable than animals
I put that down to people who have some concept of what being shot might be, where animals must be physically damaged, structurally(skeletal) or organs and blood loss, internally and in considerable pain before they back off.
many animals and people are so adrenalized they don,t immediately recognize the damage inflicted.
shot placement in all cases is critical, and the more shots striking vital organs or breaking skeletal support the faster the results are seen.
theres lots of similar discussions on the internet,
from what I read and have seen hunting Id suggest the 9mm para, and 38 spc (350-400 ft lbs on target)are about the reasonable lower limits for effective use against a human assailant,
and while shot placement is more critical than power, a 357 mag or larger (550 ft lbs on target) gives you a marginal edge on animals.
the 10mm and 41 mag have proven to be effective on many animals with rapidly applied multiple hits,
if good quality ammo was used, and certainly would be very effective on a human if the user has the skill to use it effectively,
the 41 and 44 mag are about the largest cartridges that can be easily used and controlled if you have extensive practice.
so why would one select the larger more powerful pistols like a 454 cassul or 500 S&W?
these calibers are designed for hunters, not defensive use,
but a single-center mass hit can be devastating,
penetration is far deeper and you might not get a second shot on a pissed-off, bear or cougar.
having a pistol that can drive a projectile lengthwise through a bear and exit destroying everything in its path along the way has advantages.
if you're concerned with selecting a concealed carry pistol Id select nothing smaller than the 9mm para, and 38 spc and suggest you practice rapid accurate shot placement on as 4" diam, target at 20 feet constantly,
if you're more concerned with something with teeth and claws I'd certainly go with a 10mm or 357 or larger handgun, as a minimum, but again suggest you practice rapid accurate shot placement on as 4" diam, target at 20 feet constantly,

BTW if you handload
speer gold dot bullets have a very good reputation for both expansion and penetration in simulated ballistic gelatin
in most calibers, if pushed to reasonable high velocity

keep in mind you should select the handgun, based on absolute dependability, its ammo availability and the handguns barrel length , effects concealability and its cartridge power based on the intended use, potential range and conditions expected , and it certainly won't hurt if that selection has a bit of extra range, potential accuracy, penetration, and power potential
remember your life expectance depends on that handgun performing well/accurately and effectively to stop any potential, assailant,
and, to be effective, you must be able to consistently and repeatedly and rapidly, place shots accurately.

related info you should read through

https://www.usconcealedcarry.com/blog/the-statistically-perfect-gunfight/

https://www.vpc.org/studies/uninthree.htm

https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

https://j2training.net/news/best-caliber-for-self-defense-9mm-40-sampw-or-45-acp

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...n-a-defensive-handgun-would-be-and-why.11908/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rtridges-and-how-much-does-power-mater.15400/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...es-between-accuracy-power-and-capacity.15770/

https://thewellarmedwoman.com/about-guns/the-handgun-caliber-comparison-chart-and-guide/

https://blog.cheaperthandirt.com/balancing-power-recoil-self-defense/

https://gundigest.com/gear-ammo/ammunition/what-you-need-to-know-about-handgun-stopping-power

https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shooting/Defensive-Handgun-Cartridges-are-all-the-Same-Facts-vs-Hype

https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shoo...ce=LI&li_medium=m2m-rcw-skyaboveus---outdoors

https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shoo...ce=LI&li_medium=m2m-rcw-skyaboveus---outdoors

https://skyaboveus.com/hunting-shooting/44-Remington-Magnum-Still-the-Best-Big-Bore-Magnum

 

[Grumpy]

one of the guys I hunt with rather frequently has just acquired a smith and wesson 500 mag revolver with a fairly short 3.5" barrel.
( love the feel of that revolver)

Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage

How do we create the ultimate stopping power for law enforcement? This guide discusses existing research on caliber wounding factors and effectiveness.

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The Best Self Defense Ammo - Interactive Ballistics Data Table

Need to know what the best self defense ammo is? Our interactive ballistics table has the information you need to make the right decision.

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10mm vs .45 ACP - Cartridge Comparison - Sniper Country

Which cartridge has more power 10mm or 45ACP? Our expert tested both to show you their stopping power, velocity and more..

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Now, realistically, I don't understand the real reason why you would want to carry such a heavy and large revolver ,as a 500 S&W mag
ESPECIALLY as a primary defensive concealed carry weapon,
with only a 5 shot capacity and then limit its potential power by using reduced power loads,
and its large size and weight and recoil make it far less than ideal.
and Id point out that such a short barrel and sight radius limits the effective accurate range ,
now GRANTED CHANCES ARE VERY GOOD, THAT...
IF you'll be using a revolver defensively ,
IT WILL BE at very short ranges ,
15-20 yards would most likely be a quite ,long range shot in this scenario,
so a short 3.5" BARREL IS VERY UNLIKELY TO BE A MAJOR ISSUE,
yet for hunting USE its a bit limited, and Id certainly want full power loads against something using claws and teeth,
and for hunting Id certainly use full power handloads with 440 grain hard cast bullets.
(and limit shots to the range I could consistently and rapidly hit a 6" diameter paper plate shooting off hand)
but he was looking for significantly reduced recoil level handloads,
for fast accurate repeat fire,
that still pack's a significant punch,
especially against a human attacker,
now if your more concerned with rapid repeat fire, yet still with decent punch,
I think a 15 shot 10mm glock is the way to go, or if your into revolvers,
a revolver chambered in 357mag, 10mm, or 41 mag would certainly be a better option.

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10 mm /.40 S&W Caliber Aluminum Plain Base Gas Checks

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(yes thats a very impressive revolver Id love to own)
one way to drastically reduce recoil is to reduce both the projectile weight and powder charge
and you would have a problem getting under about 350 grains in a 50 caliber bullet,
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....-half0-caliber-350-grain-jacketed-hp-50-count
but with a sabot you could use a 180-240 grain 44 caliber bullet in a 50 caliber revolver,
the 240 grain is the lightest weight that the 50 caliber sabot fits well,
and you could easily use a 15 grain load of blue dot powder to produce a full power 44 mag level load using the 50 caliber sabots and 240 grain hollow point 44 caliber bullets,
(much lower recoil than a full 500 S&W handload) in a 500 smith and Wesson,
to produce a very powerful, but reduced recoil load in that revolver ,
for personal defense against anything you might encounter
and if I were to carry a 500 S&W as a defensive choice
I'd want a reduced mid range load like a 350-400 grain, bullet, pushed at maybe 800-850 fps ,
I don't want the next three guys behind the attacker to get hit also,
and I want the option of a second shot not being retarded with excessive recoil.
but again, the the use of a 10mm , 45 acp, 41 mag or 357 mag seems like a much more logical option
for defensive use.

.500 S&W Caliber Gator Gas Checks

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GRUMPY WHAT DO I NEED HERE for a 500 S&W reloading

Grumpy, my kids and wife got together and amazingly surprised me , I got a new 500 S&W pistol for xmas ,that I never expected, but really wanted, I dropped a few hints hoping to get a few gift , credit cards , I never imagined Id get the whole pistol!! now what do I need to reload for it...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

1/2in holes!

I always heard anything worth putting a hole into, is worth putting a big hole in! Local gun store had this XIX brushed chrome Desert Eagle in .50AE for a price i could not pass up.

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your choice in a hunting revolver should concentrate on...

Its always been my contention that your choice in a hunting revolver should concentrate on accuracy, with reasonable power , rather than just maximum power! if you can,t consistently and precisely place your shots, where you intended to power is almost irrelevant... and yes that will require...

garage.grumpysperformance.com

https://www.smith-wesson.com/product/model-500
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....ter-240-grain-gold-dot-hollow-point-100-count

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1002231268

watch the video, and listen
very few people take the time and effort to become really comfortable and consistent with a hand gun, this is more true today than in decades past, simply because it takes a great deal of practice, and both the cost of ammo and the rather limited places available to practice limit most peoples ability to practice enough.
when I was much younger, most people had access to local rural areas where you could practice,
without the threat of someone calling the local cops at the first sound of a gunshot!
when I was younger a much higher percentage of the adults and even police officers spent time out at local land fills, dumps etc practicing, competing and in many cases making friend's.
there's no way I personally have the skills some people display, but I know from competing for years in various forms of shooting competition, that my skills are well above average, and its a damn shame that age will eventually ruin that skill and related knowledge level. if your new to handguns, do yourself a favor and buy a high quality 22lr (ideally a ruger or S&W revolver with a 6"-8" barrel in my opinion) to practice with
as ammo is reasonably priced and recoil and muzzle blast near non-existent

 

[Grumpy]

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just my personal opinion,
while 10mm has worked for me on hogs and deer in the past,
its not nearly as effective as a 44 mag revolver with a 300 grain hard cast bullet has consistently been,.
10 mm may be close to ideal in a defensive cartridge with some ammo choices,
but I don't feel its ideal for hunting. but then the 44 mag is not an ideal defensive choice either

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the speer 200 grain gold dot bullet over 10.3 grains of blue dot powder is my 10mm preferred defensive load
but a 155-175 grain hollow point would most likely be more consistently effective at close range
(under 20 ft like in most defensive confrontations)

the 200 grain speer gold dot in 45 acp over, 7.3 grains of unique powder works almost as well. in the 45 acp

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Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

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Id point out that the 12GA shotgun loaded with double 00 buckshot is almost the universal defensive option in the areas I grew up in,
(rural fla. farm land)
darn near every household owns a decent 12 GA pump or semi auto shotgun and its the first thing most people grab if they feel threatened in their homes and Id be surprised if at least 20% plus of the pick-up trucks don't have one behind or under the rear of the seats

accurate shot placement is CRITICAL, to success,
you can't miss fast enough to win a gunfight ,or drop a game animal
no matter how large your mag capacity, or how powerful your handgun may be!

just from personal experience shooting smaller game like coyotes and hogs, Id suggest a 38 spc plus P with a 125-158 grain bullet or a 9mm with a 115-125 grain bullet is the least powerful handgun cartridge option, ID suggest is a reasonable option and that power level is frankly far lower than optimal , the 357 mag and 45 acp have decent reputations, the 10mm and 41 mag revolver cartridges have gained excellent results in skilled hands but have a bit more recoil and muzzle blast than some feel is ideal.
personally I think a properly loaded 10mm is about ideal.
(for human opponents Id suggest a 155-175 grain hollow point bullet)

 

[Grumpy]

I got into a rather interesting discussion with one of the local guys concerning
the results I've seen over decades in using handguns for hunting,
and his upcoming purchase of a new concealed carry handgun he also intends to use for local hunting trips,
making his choice something of a compromise.
as I'm sure many frequent readers here may have noticed,
I'm a fan of the 357 mag and 44 mag revolvers and the 10mm semi auto handguns
and I certainly like the larger 445 DWSM and S&W 500 mag revolvers, each has its strong points.
but the larger hunting revolvers , mentions above are too large for easy concealed carry.
from a realistic stand point most of us will never get into a gun fight with a human opponent,
now that in no way suggest a few dozen other handgun choices won't work well,
as its accurate and consistent shot placement, and the knowledge of the games anatomy,
and accepting your choice in your handgun caliber limitations, and working with the known strengths,
and the skill of the person using the handgun thats the most critical factor in success.
given a choice, in a defensive handgun, personally, I want minimum at least 150 grains of projectile weight,
and about a minimum of 600 ft lbs of impact energy in a defensive pistol,
and as much bullet mass and energy on target as I can get in a hunting handgun.
yes you can certainly be successful with less, but why work under a potential handicap?
now obviously once you have a handgun that will easily punch through a target, and exit,
added power is of little value, and larger cartridge capacity, and rapid reload potential,
with a semi auto will have advantages in a defensive handgun.

you calculate bullet energy with this formula
bullet weight in grains times velocity, times velocity divided by 450240 =impact energy
for personal defense you would ideally have a minimum of about 450 ft lbs and no more than maybe 750 ft lbs according the dozens of FBI and similar studied,
but remember precise shot placement , and the projectile design you use is far more critical than ENERGY LEVELS

keep in mind the PROJECTILE DESIGN IS CRITICAL as it does ALL THE WORK, and SHOT PLACEMENT is CRITICAL, simply because the projectile can't be effective if not placed where it can do the most damage.
you must also select a projectile designed to maximize results on its intended target thus you must know the intended targets anatomy and where the vitals are located internally, a bullet designed break bone and penetrate to the vitals on a large bear will zip through a human opponent, causing less than ideal internal damage, a bullet designed to max internal damage on a human opponent might expand far to rapidly on a BEAR! to ever reach the vitals!

10mm Auto Self-Defense Ammo Ballistic Gel Tests - LuckyGunner.com Labs

So far, our ballistics gelatin testing project has covered 184 different factory loads split across today’s six most popular handgun ... Continued

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Handgun Self-Defense Ammunition - Ballistic Testing Data

Lucky Gunner tests more than 110 different 9mm, 45 ACP, 40 S&W and 380 ACP handgun self-defense ammunition loads in ballistic gel with analysis and video.

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looking at the 10mm test results
the speer 200 grain gold dot looks impressive

for 45 ACP the hornady- +P 200 Grain XTP JHP​

for 357 Mag - 140 gr XPB HP - Barnes VOR-TX​

 

[Grumpy]

the better 9mm pistols are held in high regard,
but you need to be very selective in ammo used and a decent shot

 

[Grumpy]

yes all these are full size 9mm handguns but all three are exceptionally and consistently accurate, I personally think the stainless EAA witness is the best bargain

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10mm Auto Self-Defense Ammo Ballistic Gel Tests - LuckyGunner.com Labs

So far, our ballistics gelatin testing project has covered 184 different factory loads split across today’s six most popular handgun ... Continued

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the glock 34 is much less expensive than the target Eaa handguns and a great second choice , but in my experience marginally less accurate, yet still an outstanding handgun for defensive use.
the witness stainless steel 9mm is cheaper than the glock, more accurate in my experience and given a choice ID grab a stainless witness every time

Glock 34 Long Slide USA 9mm, 5.32" Barrel, Adjustable Sights, Black, 17rd

Glock 34 Long Slide USA 9mm, 5.32" Barrel, Adjustable Sights, Black, 17rd. Glock UI3430103. Obtaining the greatest accuracy for target engagement was the decisive reason for the development of the GLOCK 34 with its extended barrel, longer slide dimensions and elongated distance between sights. Th...

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if your into higher capacity 9mm handguns these linked above are some of the best, very accurate and very dependable
if limited to a 9mm, you would be hard pressed to find any handgun that was as low cost, dependable or consistently more accurate
than the EAA WITNESS OR GLOCK LONG SLIDE

 

[Grumpy]

rapidly expanding bullets good for human opponents
YET IN MANY CASES
would fail miserably on a bear defense gun
lacking mandatory required penetration

EXAMPLE
ONE of the guys I hunted with for several decades, (frank R, ) was walking in the everglades one morning and walked up on a huge hog, lying in a wide muddy swamp buggy track ,stretching out to the visual horizon, in a huge field of sawgrass / palmetto, his first thought was that the hog must be either dead or critically injured , maybe it had been run over,
when it did not jump up and run at his approach, frank had a buddy with him that carried a 12 ga double barrel shot gun,
but it was loaded with #6 birdshot
frank only carried a 9mm pistol loaded with hollow point 115 grain bullets (his concealed carry handgun,) as this was just a scouting trip a couple days prior to deer season opening., Frank really thought the hog was dead as it was laying directly in the buggy trackway, but he walked up with the 9mm in his hand, and gently kicked the 170lb plus hog in the butt, before he could even react the hog jumped up spun and knocked FRANK over, Frank started kicking it as it bit his legs, Frank emptied his 9mm at point blank range at the hog scoring at least a few hits while trying hard to avoid shooting himself, the attack only ended when franks buddy Allen shot the hog in the side of the head with the 12 ga from about 2 feet away, frank spend weeks in the local hospital from the bites to his calf and ankles and infections that resulted.
obviously from what ALLEN said FRANK had hit the hog several times without having much immediate effect.
ALLEN said they looked at the hog the next day, and all the bullets only looked like they penetrated about 6"-8" max
and most hits (he said there were 4 , randomly spread hits ,he counted out of the 13 shots fired,)
from FRANKS BROWNING HI-POWER, were in the front shoulder area

 

[Grumpy]

decades of actual results documented, show the handguns in the power range of about 500-700 ft lbs,
like the 357 mag, 40 S&W, 10mm, 41 mag, 45 ACP
have proven to be dependable threat stopper's , if used by a skilled & well practiced shooter

 

[Grumpy]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1631660173587628034

27 of Top 30 Crime-Ridden Cities Run by Democrats

A new report shows that the Democrat-run cities and counties are responsible for rising crime rates in Republican states.

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[Grumpy]

Which States Allow Constitutional Carry?​

There are currently 27 constitutional carry or permitless carry states.* These states are:

Alabama (PC-21)
Alaska (PC-21)
Arizona (PC-21)
Arkansas (PC-18)
Florida (PC-21)
Georgia (PC-21 and 18 for members of the military)
Idaho (PC-18)
Indiana (PC-18)
Iowa (PC-21)
Kansas (PC-21)
Kentucky (PC-21)
Maine (permits recognized; see Maine reciprocity section for details or PC-21)
Mississippi (PC-18)
Missouri (PC-19 or 18 for members of the military)
Montana (PC-18)
Nebraska (PC-21)
New Hampshire (PC-18)
North Dakota (PC-18 for residents only and concealed carry only)
Ohio (PC-21)
Oklahoma (PC-21 or 18 for military)
South Dakota (PC-18)
Tennessee (PC-18** or 18 for members of the military)
Texas (PC-21)
Utah (PC-21)
Vermont (PC-18)
West Virginia (PC-21)
Wyoming (PC-21)

 

[Grumpy]

Handgun caliber and lethality.

This post is NOT about gun control, even though the article which it references specifically is. I don’t want to get into that discussion here, and will delete any comments which attempt to d…

ballisticsbytheinch.wordpress.com

Handgun Wounding Factors: A Caliber Effectiveness Guide for Self Defense and Body Damage

How do we create the ultimate stopping power for law enforcement? This guide discusses existing research on caliber wounding factors and effectiveness.

ammo.com

Experiments Archives - LuckyGunner.com Labs

A list of the in-depth experiments we've conducted with ammunition & firearms at Lucky Gunner Labs. See a ton of world class research you can rely on here.

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you can look at caliber and handgun selection from a dozen plus angles,
but you can't refute facts
and knowing your states laws is mandatory
read the linked info above
several experienced people have stated,
"FAST IS FINE, ACCURACY IS FINAL"

(1) where you place a shot on and adversary and your knowledge of the adversaries anatomy
(human or animal) is far more important than a few extra ft lbs of energy

(2) larger calibers, with the correct projectile design for the application,
tend to punch deeper holes, that tend to do more damage to the vitals

(3) you need to practice regularly to become proficient in any handguns use

(4) having a handgun on you is required , if you don't carry it 99% of the time,
where its legal to do so, your far less likely to have it when its needed
the best handgun in the world is useless if you don't have it when needed,
simply having a handgun, you can point at an attacker significant reduces your chances of being injured.

(5) the first few shots fired may be the only ones you get, make them count!

(6) be constantly aware of your surroundings, and the people around you

(7) most lethal confrontations are over in seconds and happen at under 10 yards,
if your not observant you could be dead!

criminals rarely attack if they think your alert,
could be armed and aware, they lose the advantage of surprise,
the last thing they want is a confrontation where they might get hurt/ killed.

carrying a handgun is like having a parachute, you may never need it ,
but if you do and don't have it, your unlikely to ever need much again.

 

[Grumpy]

if you don't hit the vitals you are unlikely to stop an assailant
random hits on an assailants anatomy may not produce the results
they expect.
even well placed lethal hits may not produce instantaneous results,
especially if the opponents adrenalins pumping
it may amaze many people to learn that many cops are not very skilled with a handgun
many cops only shoot when they need to qualify.
in the famous MIAMI /FBI shootout cops were killed by criminals even after the criminals were hit by gunfire repeatedly,
this prompted the FBI to swap to the 10MM for increased stopping power, but they soon swapped to the lower recoil cartridges like 40 S&W and 9MM simply because many agents were far less accurate with the 10mm handguns due to the larger cartridges increased recoil.
(and lack of constant practice) keep in mind many cops can go decades, or a whole career without needing to fire a handgun in anger

I've shot in many handgun completions , both target and bowling pin matches,
and cops skill levels are amazingly different
a few are excellent shots, many are pitifully bad in my experience.

 

[Grumpy]