battery or alternator?

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
jim said:
grumpy i just purchased a 1973 chevelle that had not been started in 12 years, naturally the battery was dead as a rock, so I jump started the car once i replaced the old battery,and got it to run with fresh gas and a new fuel filter, but once I got home the car would not start...any ideas?

http://custombatterycables.com/product_info.htm

having heavy gauge COPPER battery and ground connection cables with the correct ends, and a 140 amp-to-200 amp alternator goes a long way towards
reducing potential battery and starter related issues

CONGRATS on the new purchase of a project car!
the first thing Id want to check is that the battery cable connections were clean on both ends of both cables and that the car could be jump started and made to run, then id start trouble shooting, theres a couple simple tests you can do once the new battery is installed, with a multi meter
before you start the car the battery should read near 12 volts, once the cars started the alternator should be providing about 13.8-14.5 volts,Immediately after start up the alternator should be charging between 13.8 and 14.5 volts and gradually drop as the battery charges up. get a trickle charger to charge the battery and a /battery minder,to keep it charged as frequently not driving the car for a few weeks at a time is sure to reduce battery life.
a new battery may not be fully charged so Id charge it over night with a trickle charger, and you didn,t say if the engine spins over on the starter easily indicating the battery and starter are good or if its just not firing and running......if the engine spins easily the starter and batter are not nearly as suspect as the carb and ignition.
id sure start with flushing out the fuel system, and giving a car that had not run an oil change and fresh oil filter, air filter plugs, and a basic tune-up.
i,d throw a can of injector cleaner in the fuel tank, and a quart of marvel mystery oil in the crank case and adjust the ignition timing, carb float levels , verify fuel pressure,verify ignition timing, check all the fluid levels in the radiator AFTER replacing the coolant/antifreeze and verify the oil pan was full and transmission, fluid level was good.
btw CHECK THE BRAKES,(CALIPERS PADS, DRUMS SHOES ETC, BRAKE FLUID, U-JOINTS, AND WHEEL BEARINGS asap
Item# 1677827

having a quick easy to use auto voltage test checker helps speed the diagnosis
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as most of us who work on cars know chasing minor electrical glitches is a P.I.T.A. and it helps a good deal to have at least a minimal quality multi meter and test leads, and a scan tool, that can be used to, locate isolate and test THRU insulation on wires, and a tool to pull trouble codes and do minimal programming.

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http://www.amazon.com/AutoXray-6000-EZ- ... cr_pr_pb_t

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http://www.fluke.com/Fluke/usen/Digital ... ?PID=55990

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http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-dig ... 98674.html

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http://www.harborfreight.com/ac-dc-digi ... 37772.html

READ THRU THE THREADS AND SUB LINKED INFO


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tracking-down-an-electrical-drain.8493/




http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...arting-the-cars-partially-dead-battery.15608/

http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/gene ... ewall.html

 
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http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... uick_test/



http://custombatterycables.com/product_info.htm

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-auto-elecrtrical-connectors.3105/#post-68805


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/measuring-amps.15548/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/chasing-a-crazy-electrical-glitch.986/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...lternators-and-oil-all-here.12628/#post-64603

If you have a belt slipping issue....you do realize they make dual v-belt belt alternator pulleys and 3 and 4 v- belt crank pulleys and 3 v belt groove water pump pulleys

https://store.alternatorparts.com/2-groove.aspx

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having heavy gauge COPPER battery and ground connection cables with the correct ends, and a 140 amp-to-200 amp alternator goes a long way towards
reducing potential battery and starter related issues

If your chasing an intermittent, engine miss or stumble, youll need to logically isolate and test each potential source, and while it might be related to fuel pressure, carburetor float levels or crud in the carburetor fuel bowls, or a vacuum leak, on a hose or the brake booster, or fuel pressure or volume of fuel delivery or the carb fuel level, you might also be dealing with a loose electrical connection , on the battery , other wiring or system ground in the cars ignition system or sensors, or something simple like water in the fuel, or a clogged fuel filter, the point here is LOGICALLY ISOLATE AND TEST THE POTENTIAL OPTIONS, AND IT HELPS TO HAVE A FACTORY SHOP MANUAL< A MULTI METER A VACUUM GAUGE AND TAKING NOTES WON,T HURT EITHER


Disconnecting the battery while the engine is running isn’t a valid test for alternator function and may damage sensitive electronic parts. Instead, use a common voltmeter and the following test procedure. Although some of the steps reference typical GM alternators, the basic methodology is valid for any charging system.

01
Test voltage across the battery terminals with the engine running. A good alternator should maintain battery voltage between 13.9 and 14.8 volts (14.2 is optimum). Even worst-case, with all accessories turned on, there should be at least 13 volts at the battery. Be sure that the engine is running at a high enough rpm for the charging system to function (especially if running a one-wire alternator excited at a specific rpm). If voltage is low, go to Step 02. If voltage is over 15 volts, go to Step 05.

02
Connect the voltmeter between the alternator’s output (BAT) terminal and Ground. If voltage is 13.6–14.6 volts, the alternator is OK, but power isn’t getting to the battery. Go to Step 03. If voltage is under 13.6 volts, go to Step 04.

03
Check the battery cables and alternator charge-wire for bad connections, improper cable and wire size, or corrosion. Repair or replace as needed. Recheck as per Step 02. If voltage is a constant 13.6–14.6, the problem is solved. If voltage is normal, but slowly decreases, go to Step 04.

04
Check the alternator drive-belt. Adjust its tension or replace as needed. On a street car, the crank pulley should be three times larger than the alternator pulley; fix as needed. If voltage is normal but slowly decreases after these repairs, your alternator is OK but can’t keep up with the vehicle’s current demands; upgrade to a higher-output alternator. If you get an immediate under-13.6 volt reading, go to Step 05.

05
Test the voltage regulator. For external regulators, go to Step 06. For internal regulators, go to Step 07.

06
Unplug the harness from the regulator. With the engine running, connect a jumper wire from the connector’s B+ Terminal to the connector’s Field terminal (on most GM cars, that’s respectively the red and blue wires). Only do this for 30 seconds at a time. The engine will bog down. The alternator should have an audible whir and ramp up to max output. If you see a visible arc, repair or replace the regulator. If there’s no arc, the alternator has an open Field circuit or worn-out brushes. Fix or replace as needed.

07
GM SI alternator internal regulators can be checked as shown in the photo. If voltage goes up during this check, repair or replace the internal regulator. If voltage is lower than before, repair or replace the entire alternator. Late-model GM CS alternators don’t have serviceable regulators; the entire unit must be replaced.

Read more: http://www.hotrod.com/techarticles/engi ... z33Uhrtws7

a great many electrically conductive surfaces are subject to oxidation and corrosion especially things like battery grounds on frames and the newer screw on the side battery cable connections, and battery to starter connections,so coating those higher amp rated connection points with a good anti corrosive, and moisture resistant and electrically conductive paste , grease or anti-seize would seem to be a good idea.
I know I can,t be the only guy that used to occasionally find when I hit the ignition key and got a click but the starter would not work, and found that a loose battery connection on the cable was at fault!

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http://www.2spi.com/catalog/vac/silver-filled-grease-techdata.html

http://www.cool-amp.com/conducto_lube.html?gclid=CNKs1MD-sMYCFZKBaQodGswC6A

http://www.w8ji.com/dielectric_grease_vs_conductive_grease.htm

http://www.carid.com/loctite/copper...Put_9z-sMYCFQGGaQodOMID_Q#product-details-tab

theres three likely areas that need to be tested,
the alternator,
battery
and
connections between the two (cables) (LIKE MENTIONED previously ABOVE)
you need a multi meter to test
set the multi meter on DC volts ,
the black common lead to the engine ground
connect the red volt test too the
ALTERNATOR VOLTAGE OUT LEAD MARKED
OUTPUT below at 2000 rpm you should see 14.0-14.7 volts with the engine running
altesta.jpg


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your battery should run 12 volts to 12.7 volts if fully charged , when tested between the unconnected lugs

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assuming you have near 14 volts at the alternator output lug , now move the red test lead, on the multi meter to the battery positive post, and keep the black lead on the ground connection, it should read the same, if it reads 12 volts or less the cable between the battery and alternator must be resistance tested and read less than 1 -2 ohms
if it reads over 4 ohms its likely defective.
if it reads good the batter is likely internally damaged

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a logical step by step approach will lead you to the problem, youll be amazed at what youll learn reading links. use of a shop manual and multi meter can be very helpful
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every mechanic needs an ANALOG multi meter for testing capacitors with a micro farad scale, AND a DIGITAL MULTI METER
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http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=36&t=63&p=3403&hilit=vats#p3403
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use of a shop manual and multi meter can be very helpful

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related info

http://www.agcoauto.com/content/news/p2_articleid/157

http://www.fluke.com/fluke/uses/com...articlecategories/electrical/diagnosevoltdrop

http://www.aa1car.com/library/tselec.htm

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/interior-electrical/116-0507-top-10-electrical-fixes/


now one of the lesser known causes of u-joint failure , is the result of missing or high electrical resistance engine electrical grounds,
you should always ground the engine and transmission to the chassis ground in at least two places.
its not all that uncommon for a badly grounded engine to need the u-joints , radiators , pilot bearings and starters replaced on a much higher frequency,
simply because electricity will take the path of least resistance, to flow and if the engines rubber transmission and motor mounts,
and rubber exhaust system hangers make the drive shaft a partial path for the engines electrical ground, that current can and will eventually cause damage to the u-joints.


"from ARCOAUTO
If the cables, grounds and terminals work as designed, current flow is not a problem. When cranking the vehicle, we turn the key and electricity flows from the battery to the starter motor, through a solenoid. We need the solenoid, because the key switch cannot conduct the high amperage needed to operate the starter. The solenoid acts like a heavy-duty relay. It allows the light-duty key switch to control the high-amperage starter motor.

After flowing through the starter, the current returns to the battery through the engine block. They connect the engine to the electrical system with a heavy cable, attached to the negative battery terminal. This completes the circuit. The starter uses 275 amps to turn and the same current returns to the battery. Current flow on both cables equals 275 amps. The current returning to the battery equals that leaving it.
Problems occur when corrosion and loose connections cause high resistance. The ground cable may only be able to flow 250 amps. If the starter pulls 275 amps, twenty-five amps will find another path to the negative terminal. This is known as transient current flow; electricity taking a path, other than that designed, to return to the battery. The end result can be considerable damage to seemingly unrelated components.
Transmission and suspension components are not designed to flow electricity. As the current flows through them, metal can be transferred from on part to another. This is similar to the electroplating process. In time the parts are destroyed and there may be a major failure.

Keeping all battery terminals clean, tight and with proper connections can help prevent transient current flow.


ost folks have never heard of a transient current flow. Transient current flow can cause thousands in damage to a vehicles. Normally there are very few outward signs until it is too late. Fortunately it can also be detected and prevented, with a few simple steps.

When there is an electrical load in our vehicle, current flows from the battery to the load. A positive current leaves the battery and travels through wires to the accessory. The same amount of current must also return to negative side through a ground. The ground may be provided by a wire or sometimes the vehicle body. The body is electrically attached to the negative terminal.

The current flow leaving and returning to the battery has to be equal

CORRECT GROUNDS

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LOOSE CORROADED GROUNDS
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Battery terminal corrosion is a symptom of another problem
A few symptoms of transient current flow




    • Early or repeat rack and pinion failure
    • Flickering or pulsing headlamps
    • Erratic dash volt meter
    • Unexplained or repeat electrical failures "
    Upgrade to 12si 3-wire 94 amp Alternator (includes wiring diagram) on a 3rd gen Nova
    I just did this upgrade, and it took me a lot of trial and error and sorting through various, conflicting, information on the web to get my new 94 amp 12si alternator installed and working properly. If I had a post like the following when I embarked on this it would have been much easier. Hopefully this will help someone in the future! Following is an explanation of what I did:

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    I used an '84 Camaro 305 4bbl as the application to get the alternator. It was cheap, like $60 bucks. Not bad for an almost 100amp alt. Autozone Part number DL7294. DOES come with a v-belt pulley. I believe you can use a later year for the serpentine setup.

    I also had to buy the new pigtail to fit it from autozone, it was only a couple of bucks. Autozone part number 85841.

    1. I then fitted the pigtail with an inline diode from radioshack as shown in the diagram, Part number 276-1143. Model 1N5402 diode. Stripe faces the alternator, and it goes on the wire for the Number 1 terminal on the alternator. Like all connections, you really, really, really should solder this.

    2. I connected the number one terminal wire on the pigtail to the old blue wire. I cut off and taped the yellow one, it's not used anymore. This blue wire will become your 12v key on power source. If you for whatever reason don't have a blue wire here, you'll need to run this Terminal 1 straight to a key-on 12V power source.

    3. The number 2 terminal is going to run straight to the BAT connection on the back of the alternator. You can alternatively run this to another location, such as your distribution block for remote voltage sensing, but I determined it wasn't worth it in my case. You may or may not need a diode for that, I don't know. This wire simply tells the alt how much power it's putting out and if it needs to increase or decrease to hit 12V, from my understanding.

    4. When I installed the alternator I also ran a wire composed of 4 twisted and soldered 10gauge wires straight from the back of the alternator to the battery to facilitate charging straight to the battery and not having all that amperage moving through my distribution block. On this eyelet I attached the number two terminal from step 3.

    You can do this however you like (including keeping the stock BAT eyelet and routing), but re-routing the alternator->battery in this fashion coupled with re-routing the HEI, in my opinion, will provide an extra measure of safety (not having so much amperage through stock wiring) and better battery charging and performance (when HEI is re-routed to straight battery power). Keep in mind if doing it this way it's a good idea to upgrade your stock wiring from starter to the distribution block to at least 10 gauge with appropriate fusible links.

    If you're NOT planning on upgrading your stock wiring from starter to dist block you can re-use the stock BAT connection.

    Picture below:

    pigtail.jpg





    5. Once that's done, you're done at the alternator. Now, you'll need to take off your voltage regulator and do some soldering.

    Clip off the Blue wire labelled F and the Brown wire labeled 4. The brown wire has key-on 12V, and if you'll recall the blue wire we soldered Terminal 1 to requires a key-on 12V. You'll need to solder together the Blue "F" wire and Brown "4" wire. This will give your alt the key-on 12V and you can tape those up and forget about them.

    The other two wires (yellow/white and orange) can be clipped off or taped up, whatever you want to do. They won't be used. Go ahead and shove this whole bundle, nicely taped, up under your fender so you can't see it and that voltage regulator can go in the garbage.

    IF, FOR SOME REASON, you're NOT using the stock blue wire from the alternator harness to power it up, and you've ran theTerminal One straight to a key-on 12v power source, then the voltage regulator is NOT USED and you can cut the whole thing off and trash it! Keep in mind that brown wire DOES have key-on power if you need it in the future.

    6. Go for a test drive. Make sure to stop after a little bit and see that all the wiring is good to go and nothing's shorting/smoking. This worked perfectly on my car and the volts gauge barely moves now even with my dual 12" sub setup on.
 
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