before you buy a salvage yard engine, just some info

grumpyvette · Jun 25, 2010

I recently had a friend buy a 500 cubic inch 1970 caddy engine to install in his t-bucket hes built, he spent all day in the salvage yard unbolting the engine removing it with the help from the salvage yards fork lift, to lift and place it in his pick-up truck, and most of the next day to install it only to find it had a busted crankshaft, the salvage yard didn,t have a second 500 caddy engine so he got a big discount on a 472 caddy engine and about 90% of his cash back he paid for the 500 caddy as they have a 72 hour guarantee on used engines, (which IM sure is because they figure 90% of the buyers can,t possibly install and test an engine in that time limit) that clearly states that if the block or crank is not salvageable/rebuild-able, with normal rebuilding processes such as a mild over bore or cutting the journals on the crank no more than .010, that the core may be returned for a similar core, provided the faults found and verified within that 72 hours, and that the salvage yards not responsible for testing, inspection,transportation or related costs.you can avoid lots of problems by carefully inspecting spark plugs, if they are clean and dry chances are far better that the engines in good condition that if they have indications of oil or coolant, if the intakes been removed or the carburetor off so you can use an inspection probe look at the back side of the intake valves, if they are fairly clean the valve seals and guides are more than likely serviceable,If I was choosing between two engines, I find for sale at some salvage yard or yard sale, Id look at the two engines in question with a close inspection looking for corrosion damage, indicators of rough treatment or lack of care in storage, like obvious open exhaust ports or intake manifold openings showing rusty surfaces, I'd try turning the engine with a breaker bar with the plugs removed and feel for resistance that may indicate damaged bore or rings,, Id look over the valve train carefully looking for obvious wear,and looking for any previous repair work, Id look under valve covers and take the oil pan off if I could looking for coolant leaks sludge build-up , slack in the timing chain, wear on the distributor gears and rusty sludge in coolant passages, all indicators of either low infrequent maintenance or improper storage.
in an engine that old chances are fair that its corrosion that will be your major potential damage problem, if no obvious mechanical damage or wear is obvious.

all the drama and trips back and forth and arguing could easily have been avoided if he had done a careful inspection before he started removing the engine.
yes, your correct, if your rebuilding the 500 caddy you can generally select the components you want to get to the compression range you desire, but theres no where near the selection a Chevy or Ford , big block engine would have unless you go the custom built piston route.
OR go with a caddy performance parts supplier (neither routes cheap)
Id also point out that the stock head casting come in several versions (NONE OF THEM) are really high air flow rate,(look at these links) and they require a good valve job, port & bowl clean-up and the adapter that allows you to use the ford 460 intake manifolds if you want to get a decent flow rate with the stock heads.
yes there used too be and still are a few sets of aftermarket heads.
http://www.cad500parts.com/catalog/page17.htm
http://www.cad500parts.com/catalog/page10.htm

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_intake_adapters.html

http://www.pricemotorsport.com/html/body_ap-23__intake_adapter_kit.html

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2966/overview/make/ford
an adapter plate, a cam change and this intake with a 850 holley works wonders on a 500 caddy if you have hood clearance

viewtopic.php?f=27&t=845&p=1281#p1281

go to the salvage yard only after doing your research and having an extensive printed list of casting numbers carried with you and any VIN NUMBER info that will help identify what engine your looking for!
viewtopic.php?f=50&t=3045&p=8043&hilit=numbers+casting#p8043

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=93&p=7030&hilit=numbers+casting#p7030

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=951&p=1627&hilit=+numbers+casting#p1627

viewtopic.php?f=78&t=632&p=846&hilit=+numbers+casting#p846

find out before, your pull any engine, what the salvage yard guarantees, and for how long its guaranteed good for,
get it in writing, and get a dated receipt, and GET A DETAILED PRICE, listing WHATS BEEN PURCHASED ,WHATS COVERED in the cost, and WHATS guaranteed, WITH A MANAGERS SIGNATURE, then take several pictures of the guy, the engine and make copy's

any time you go and look at a salvage yard engine core you do a few simple tests, test one is before you start work, you'll need to be sure theres access under the car and its firmly and safely supported, and you'll need to clarify who moves the engine from the car to your pick-up truck or trailer and if the salvage yard has a fork lift that can lift the engine out of the car once its been un-bolted and if theres a charge for that service if you unbolt the engine, always get a price on the transmission also as a package deal, as at times you'll find an extra $30-$60 buys you a rebuild-able transmission core and converter

(1)pull and inspect the spark plugs, looking for a consistent condition and no coolant in the cylinders

(2)turn the engine with a breaker bar and watch the distributor and valve train move, it should turn freely and not bind-up

(3)do a compression test ON ALL CYLINDERS, results should be similar and all above 100 psi after squirting a bit of oil into each cylinder when turning the engine over by hand with a large breaker bar

(4)SLUDGE and oil under the valve covers should be minimal and NOT mixed with coolant, some minimal sludge is good as it prevents rust,lots of sludge indicates an engine that was not well maintained

(5)most salvage yard engines have their oil drained already but the dipstick should not be rusted,which might be indicating water or coolant in the crank case.

(6)cars that were in minor accidents were probably running when hit so that's a potentially good sign, cars pulled from lakes or cars that were in serious fires were not usually a good indicator, I generally look for cars that were hit in the rear or side for engine salvage candidates

if your allowed ID suggest pulling the intake for a close inspection

an inspection tool like the one linked below will allow a casual inspection of the lower engine internally without pulling the oil pan if used thru the oil pan drain plug hole, this is also a great way to easily locate 4 bolt vs two bolt main cap engines without pulling the oil pan.

http://www.toolrage.com/prodView.asp?sku=SLI-PV618

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=1513

viewtopic.php?f=62&t=881&p=8362&hilit=leak+down#p8362

http://www.harborfreight.com/high-resol ... ?hftref=cj

GOOGLE SLI-PV618

http://www.tooltopia.com/provision-pv61 ... opping_r1&

http://www.toolrage.com/prodView.asp?sku=SLI-PV618

http://www.toolrage.com/prodview.asp?sku=SLI-PV300

a tool like this, with its 1/4" lens and cable lets you remove the spark plug and lets you closely inspect the piston and valves at least giving you some better info on the condition in the combustion chamber, its also good once the oil pan plugs been removed to inspect what you suspect to be lower end rotating assembly conditions in many cases.
I bought one and while its not used daily its a great help when you really want to inspect things before dis-assembly, as for example if you want to know if a salvage yard engines a two or four bolt block, without pulling the oil pan

btw if your thinking about a t-bucket kit, or something in a traditional hot rod, for example

http://www.spiritcars.com/

http://www.tperformance.com/

http://www.tbucketplans.com/

http://www.corbinrods.com/1923_t_bucket.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Deluxe-27 ... 24789.html

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Deluxe-23 ... GoogleBase

http://freepages.genealogy.rootsweb.anc ... dster.html

http://www.tperformance.com/total-performance-kits.html

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4706

http://www.rodandcustommagazine.com/tec ... index.html

grumpyvette · Oct 3, 2010

if your going to buy a used short block or a bare block from an un-known private source or most salvage yards, obviously you'll need to do BOTH a close inspection, WITH some measuring tools
AND get some idea of the blocks physical condition
this is also a good inspection tool
http://www.thetoolwarehouse.net/p-6283- ... pv618.aspx

GOOGLE PV-618 and PV-636

High resolution lens provides a clear image of objects as close as 3/4 inch and over one foot away while providing a wide 40 degree field of view.
Powerful lamp illuminates dark crevices on-demand with the push of a button conveniently located on the handle.
Ergonomically designed handle is comfortable to hold and allows one-handed focusing and light activation.
Rugged and water resistant, ProVision is made of high impact ABS and flexible cable sheathing. (Note: Shaft is water resistant, not the handle.)
PV-618 and PV-636 models have .23â€ diameter, flexible, non-obedient cable. Durable carrying case included.
Accessories available to optimize ProVision for specialized applications.
Made in the USA
Specifications:

Cable Length: 18" (457.2mm)
Cable Diameter: .23"
Handle Length: 6" (152.4mm)
Handle Width: 1.43" (36.2mm)Overall Length: 24" (609.6mm)
Weight of Scope w/ Carrying Case: 1 lb. 5.7 oz (615 g)
Field of View: 40Â°
Optimal Viewing Distance: Min. .8" (20mm); Max. is dependent upon ambient lighting conditions.
Lamp Volts: 2.7 volts (Halogen)
Power Source: 2 AA batteries (not included)
Pressure Necessary to Operate Lamp: 2.9 avg. p/psi; 3.2 max. p/psi

heres a cheaper version that works with a lap top computer

GCA 5.5mm Diameter USB Waterproof 6 Led Endoscope Borescope Inspection Wire Camera (5m)
Price: $18.50 & FREE Shipping on orders over $49. Details

Waterproof wire endoscope

Diameter:5.5mm head, 5 meters long flexible tube

High resolution 1.3MP with 1/12" VGA CMO

6 LED lighting adjustable, can be inspected the hard-to-see areas.

Waterproof : IP67, 60°Viewable Angle. Can take photo & video and save in your computer

http://www.amazon.com/Diameter-Wate...nkId=3UZMFXI3AEU527XD&creativeASIN=B00N4L5N4A

drain your oil and look at the cam thru the oil pan drain hole, or pull a spark plug and inspect the valve or piston condition
the average chevy V8 blocks most likely nearly 10-40 years old,in a salvage yard so keep that in mind, youll need a steel machinist 2 foot strait edge,ruler, feeler gauges and a machinist caliper at the minimum, and I would bring a torque wrench, to measure the rotational resistance, which should not exceed 35 ft lbs even dry, assuming thats all checking out you generally won,t pay more than about $300-$700 for a 400-454 short block, and no more than $250 for a bare block and those are HIGH LIMITS, normally youll pay less than 60% of those limits

IM always VERY SUSPICIOUS of engines that get pulled that are for sale that Ive never heard running....
ID replace the freeze plugs with BRASS ones so your not likely to need to chase leaks for a few years, ID replace the timing chain and verify the cam and lifter condition, ID suggest doing a compression test to verify theres good compression and Id listen for leaks, ID fill the coolant passages and look for coolant leaks, and ID pull the oil pan and inspect then replace the gasket with a one piece synthetic gasket, ID use an oil pump prime tool and prime the oil system looking for leaks and pressure levels, and ID be looking in the oil pan and filter for indications of excessive wear or metallic crud, with that low mileage the rings and bearings should be barely broken in, but I don,t trust many people to tell the truth on used engines Ive seen to many gullible friends buy "350" or"383" engine bargains that turned out to be either defective, well worn, or 305-307 sbc engines with a nice paint job
related threads
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=4706

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5995

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10337&p=42394#p42394

grumpyvette · Mar 13, 2012

ONE OF THE GUYS POSTED THIS
"Well, I got a 350 off craigslist out of a 98 silverado for my 350 swap, the guy said it ran great with about 95,000 miles if i remember right.. i bought it last year, and the last couple weeks i've been fixing it up buying all the parts i need to drop it in. Well i got the vortec heads redone to handle my lt4 hotcam and noticed the pistons had .060 stamped on them. The block numbers were 14093638, so its not a 98 block. And finally I took the oil pan off to paint it and new gaskets and everything and found a broken crankshaft... Im thinking i was ripped off, Heres a pic, What could cause this??"

NOTICE THE BUSTED OFF REAR CRANK(GREEN ARROW)

What could cause this??
well,its unfortunate but theres a few real low life scum that think its just smart to unload busted or well worn engines on unsuspecting buyers, the damage could easily result from incorrect clearances, a defective cast crank, or a badly balance rotating assembly, a defective balancer, are factors that jump to mind but a detailed inspection once its all apart will give you a good deal more info. you obviously were LIED TOO, that engine could not run in that condition without making one hell of a noise so obviously you were sold a busted engine knowingly, buy the seller, thats why your never supposed to buy an engine without hearing it run or pulling the heads and oil pan for an inspection to verify your not buying a trashed engine from some smiling lying bastard out to scam you!

grumpyvette · Feb 19, 2013

just some info!
examples
think about what your goal is and don,t get so focused on one limited course of action without considering your options , as an example one of my friends purchased an older muscle car (it was a 1968 Pontiac tempest with a busted 350 Pontiac engine) and wanted to find a 350 Chevy to upgrade the engine to a 383 SBC as he had most of the performance parts for that engine, too install in the car, but he decided he wanted the low rpm torque of a TPI corvette engine and wound up buying mostly new parts and not using most of the parts he had that he based his decision to swap to a Chevy engine in the first place on, and visited several salvage yards to obtain the basic components, by the time he was done he had spent $3600 on a fairly new vortec 350,new injectors, an intake adapter base, new roller cam, used roller lifters, a used distributor,and a used 700r4 transmission, then machine work, ignition parts, gaskets etc. and while that certainly was a decent price for what he had when he was finished, the car made 360 rear wheel hp and ran mid to low 13 second times.
EXAMPLE
I know a guy I occasionally see and talk with in a local muscle car club,with a similar 1970 GTO he re-built with the larger caddy v8 and a matching th400 transmission, ,that he had purchased in a barely running 1970 caddy with a 500 cubic inch engine and several parts salvaged from the junk yard, he also managed to locate a rear differential with disc brakes that he fabricated brackets for and installed in that car, and by the time he was done rebuilding the GTO with the 500 caddy engine,and rear disc brakes, the cost was a bit less and his car was a bit faster.
the point being that your not locked into buying only a Chevy engines for Chevy and Pontiac engines for Pontiac cars and with a bit of creativity the car you built can be both fast and rather unique

at times you need to do some minor fabrication to get things to fit & function, so having a welder and knowing where to get header flanges helps, but some careful measuring will yield surprising results at times, like BIG BLOCK CHEVY HEADERS CAN BE MODIFIED TO FIT A 500 CADDY ENGINE

If you do build a second performance engine rather than modify your single existing original cars engine,theres some advantages, that us older geezers have come to appreciate at times.
as a general rule, its best to take your time and build a separate performance engine that you can swap into the car over a weekend, this has several advantages
(1) you will not be tying up the car, in an un-driveable condition waiting for weeks on parts to arrive or waiting on machine work to be done,
and you can always swap the original engine back into the car,
to have the car as dependable transportation while the performance engines being built or worked on.
(2) you can sell either engine separately from the car itself and still have a drive-able car.
(3)having your performance engine out on an engine stand certainly makes it far easier to work on.
(4) having a second engine available allows you to drive the car while you make repairs on the original engine
(5) if you screw something up, your not effectively stuck with a non-driveable car for long.
(6) with some experience you,ll find an engine swap between two similar engines can be done in a day , or at most a weekend by yourself, with a skilled and experienced local buddy, a long afternoon!

chromebumpers · Nov 5, 2015

There's an Olds 455 complete carb to pan, no alt, no steering pump. It's ID # 396021 F which by your info above makes it a common 455, 1968 to ?
The head ID# is J 411783 (1973 to 1976) which by the info above are heads to avoid.
I don't know if the heads are a later ad on or original, I need to find the end date to motor 396021 F to help determine.
There is a TH400 attached.
The kid says this motor came in a pickup. He brought it home drove it around the farm and thinks it spun a bearing so it was parked and engine/Trans removed and stored. Asking price is $350 or Best offer - give him a price.
From the books, Olds 455 from 68, 69 and 70 made 510 ft. It's. At just 3,000 rpm, Hp is 375@4,600. With 10.5 compression. These Olds motors appear a bit stronger than the Pontiac 1968- 472 ft. Lbs. @ 3,200 rpm. Is this motor worth the bother with a spun bearing?

Grumpy · Nov 6, 2015

Id suggest you pull the oil pan and CAREFULLY inspect the damage, look it over see the extent of rust and mechanical damage done and make a reasonable offer based on what you see while you point out the obvious,
it may be just a spun bearing, if so, thats usually a minor repair, if it was caught early,
a machine shop can handle, the crank polish, new bearings and find you new connecting rods if required or do a line hone,
it could also be a cracked block, if so that engines basically trash, from a psychological view, once you start pulling main caps, and rod bearing caps you obviously MUST keep the parts in their original locations,
but an interesting thing happens, the engines owner will feel the engines now worth less now that its apart
(trust me been there a hundred times)
so if he asking $350 and you point out a badly scratched main bearing journal and mention a line hone costs $200
and a crank will cost you $300, alone
(facts here may not mater at this point, and yes it might cost you MORE or LESS) ,
but you can depend on one of two common reactions ,
a desperate desire to salvage the sale and get some value, and a feeling of resentment,
for you obviously knowing a bit more than your average idiot,
that should have paid for the engine took it home and then found it was trash, quietly!
the end result is youll either get the engine purchased for let say $200-$250 or the guy will get pissed off and tell you to stick it where the sun don,t shine,
(in which case you loose nothing )
but be careful here, act apologetic, say things like,
"look, this is likely to cost me far more than its worth but I would love to get one of these old muscle-car engines back on the road, and if it takes me a few months and a few extra dollars Id rather do that than see it rust away in some field,"
if the negotiation and sale is handled correctly you can make a friend and have a guy that will call you every time he sees a good deal on old muscle car engines, but it takes practice, if you piss him off youll just make an enemy!

chromebumpers · Nov 6, 2015

I Think he wants to clear out the barn. I'm pretty sure he'll take a couple hundred for the motor and Trans too. He swears the Trans worked perfectly. I guess there is no way of knowing if it's any good until installed in something or take it to a transmission shop. Do you think I should just give him $200 for everything and just pull things apart when I get it home. It's an "F" block which I gather is either the 68 to 70 years or if the "F" code is a Sarif style F then it's a 1970 and '71 block, I won't know until I see it. In any case it's got crappy smog heads that are from 73 to 76 455. What's makes them bad is the the port behind the exhaust valve is constricted to just 1." Book says Olds lowered the compression ratio from 10.5 to 8.5 by dishing out the piston tops and the common heads have 82 cc while the better heads have 77 cc.
Olds doesn't have anywhere near the variety of head choices that Pontiac had.

Grumpy · Nov 6, 2015

if you can afford to potentially waste, or invest $200 on what might be junk or a good rebuild-able core I think its a reasonable gamble , but in my financial situation Id still pull the oil pan and do a quick inspection looking for coolant in the oil and obvious mechanical flaws like bent rods

chromebumpers · Nov 6, 2015

What is a useable TH400 worth?

Grumpy · Nov 6, 2015

TOO WHO?
TO most people ID say $300-$400 would be fair ,
but if you find some guy who might need one in a hurry .
I'm sure you could sell it for more, so you sure won,t loose cash if you get it for under $300.
IF I had a spare $300 ID buy one!

chromebumpers · Nov 6, 2015

Good news. Since the transmission will cover the $200 layout I'm going for it. The motor has a Holley Dominator intake and Quadrajet. Those 2 should be worth something.
If I can turn the motor over by the crank pulley would that eliminate bent rods?

Grumpy · Nov 6, 2015

If I can turn the motor over by the crank pulley would that eliminate bent rods?

technically NO!
an engine could still turn over over with slightly bent rods in some combinations but in most engines bent rods WILL BIND

chromebumpers · Nov 6, 2015

I'm mostly concerned about finding a bad, unsalvageable block and or crank. I already have to scrap the cylinder heads, so it would be a lot of work just for an old QJet, Street Dominator intake and a Trans. To be honest, I don't have any experience with a spun bearing. I don't have a clue what impact that has on rebuilding options and the "BIG "question, is this motor worth saving?

Grumpy · Nov 7, 2015

chromebumpers · Nov 19, 2015

I missed posting an update.
I didn't buy this setup for the following reasons:
1). I've been searching Craigs L. in hope of making a few extra bucks a month flipping what I believe are very good deals. No matter how good these deals are or seem, they're not working out for me and now I've got a growing stock-pile of motors and parts. I worked hard and bit the bullet last year to get rid of this stuff and here I'm starting again.
2). There maybe a huge surplus of TH400's in my area because there is a lot for sale on CL and they don't seem to sell all that quickly. Many ads state their transmissions were running good and are asking between $150 and $300, not what I want to see when my plans were to buy this one for $100 and sell for $200.
3). I must be getting lazy because I feel less and less like dealing with all the trouble and to gamble that I can come out ahead on flipping. TV these days seems to have taught everyone even when faced with a great deal, still offer 50% less.
Off topic briefly, I'm never more amazed then when going to SEMA. There are lines of people pushing and shoving to spend their money on so many things they absolutely don't need and companies making millions selling, making and building things people don't need!

T-Test · Nov 19, 2015

A fool and his money will soon part when you THINK you need/want something!!!

before you buy a salvage yard engine, just some info

grumpyvette

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chromebumpers

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Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

chromebumpers

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Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

chromebumpers

solid fixture here in the forum

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

chromebumpers

solid fixture here in the forum

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

chromebumpers

solid fixture here in the forum

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

chromebumpers

solid fixture here in the forum

T-Test

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