break-in oil quality tested

[grumpyvette]

https://540ratblog.wordpress.com/


First, a little background info so that we are all on the same page. The independent and unbiased Engineering testing I perform at a REPRESENTATIVE OPERATIONAL TEMPERATURE, to establish motor oil wear protection capability, is a dynamic friction test under load, similar to how an engine dyno test is a dynamic HP/Torque test under load. Both tests show how their subjects truly perform in the real world, no matter what brand names are involved, no matter what outrageous claims may have been made, and no matter what their spec sheets may say.

My Motor Oil Wear Protection Ranking List of over 150 different oils, is "proven" by the Physics and Chemistry involved, and it EXACTLY matches real world Track experience, real world flat tappet break-in experience, and real world High Performance Street experience (test data validation doesn’t get any better than this). You can see the details on this, by going to the Oil Test Data Blog link below.

And the data used to create my Wear Protection Ranking List is NOT my opinion, and it is NOT my theory. The data, as mentioned above, is the result of the Physics and Chemistry involved in the testing. I am only the messenger. The Science is what tells us how these oils perform. And no reasonable person would try to argue with Physics and Chemistry. The fact is, motor oil wear protection capability is determined by the base oil and its additive package "as a whole", with the emphasis on the additive package, which is what contains the extreme pressure anti-wear components, and NOT merely by how much zinc is present. The use of zinc as the primary extreme pressure anti-wear component is outdated technology. Modern extreme pressure anti-wear components are equal to or better than zinc, which is why many modern low zinc oils outperform many traditional high zinc oils.

So, think twice before believing anything the naysayers say when they try to discredit my Motor Oil Engineering Test Data. There are always some who try. They are not actually arguing with me, even if they think they are. They are actually arguing against Physics and Chemistry. Who do you think will win that battle? And ask them how they figure they know more than what the Science of Physics and Chemistry proves. Ask them what their qualifications are. Ask them what testing they have ever done.

They are typically high zinc lovers who just can’t accept the fact that what they’ve always believed about the need for high zinc oils, is only an Old Wives Tale MYTH. So, they get upset and go out of their way trying to undermine anything that goes against what they have been brainwashed to believe about high zinc oils. But, emotion does not determine how good any particular oil is. Factual Engineering tests have proven over and over again that zinc levels alone DO NOT determine an oil’s wear protection capability. The naysayers cannot back-up anything they say, but I back-up everything I say with hard Engineering test data that exactly matches real world experience.

My Test Data Blog now has over 90,000 views worldwide. Of course simply listing the number of views by itself, is not intended to indicate validation of the test data (validation is shown throughout the Blog). But, indicating the number of views does show that an enormous number of people worldwide recognize the value, understand the importance, and make use of the motor oil test data FACTS included there, that cannot be found anywhere else. And as a result, they are posting and sharing links to my Blog, all over the world. See for yourself. A link is provided at the end of this posting.

*****

Now, on with Break-In Oil information.

So-called Break-In oils are typically hyped by claiming they provide for quick ring seating while providing extra wear protection for other parts. Of course no oil can be formulated to “allow” the wear of only certain parts, AND to “prevent” the wear of other parts, at the same time. It has to be formulated for one or the other, which we will see below.

When impossible Marketing claims like that are made, it is only to sell product, no matter what the truth really is. Many would call that blatant false advertising, which motor oils are famous for. The absolute best oils and the absolute worst oils all make the same claim about how great they are. Until my wear protection capability test data became available, buyers had no way of knowing which oils actually live up to those claims and which ones don’t. Because we now know that looking at the zinc level alone, is absolutely worthless, and tells you nothing about an oil’s wear protection capability.

Let’s take a look at component quantities of several Break-In Oils, from the Lab Tests performed by ALS Tribology in Sparks, Nevada.

Lucas 30 wt Break-In Oil, conventional
zinc = 4483 ppm
phos = 3660 ppm
moly = 3 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 1104 ppm
TBN = 5.9
This oil has by far, the highest level of zinc/phos I have ever come across. It has way more than twice the amount of zinc that begins to CAUSE wear/damage. Because of that, the extremely low level of TBN, and the extremely low level of detergent, this oil should be used for only a very short time, as a Break-In oil would suggest.

Comp Cams 10W30 Break-In Oil, conventional
zinc = 3004 ppm
phos = 2613 ppm
moly = 180 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 4234 ppm
TBN = 14.7
This oil also has by far, way too much zinc/phos. It has way more than enough zinc to begin causing wear/damage, rather than prevent it. Because of that, this oil also should be used for only a very short time, as a Break-In oil would suggest.

Edelbrock 30 wt Break-In Oil, conventional
zinc = 1545 ppm
phos = 1465 ppm
moly = 4 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 3452 ppm
TBN = 10.6
This oil is manufactured for Edelbrock by Torco.


Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil, conventional
zinc = 1170 ppm
phos = 1039 ppm
moly = 0 ppm
total detergent/dispersant/anti-deposit build-up/anti-sludge = 3184 ppm
TBN = 9.8

As you can see above, there is absolutely no consistency at all, between the Break-In oils that were fomulated by these various Oil Companies. These oils are all over the place and bouncing off the walls. We see zinc from 1170 ppm to 4483 ppm. We see phos from 1039 ppm to 3660 ppm. We see detergent levels from 1104 ppm to 4234 ppm. And we see TBN values from 5.9 to 14.7. WOW!!! These oils couldn’t be much more different, and yet they are all aimed at the EXACT SAME Break-In oil market. It makes you wonder if these Oil Companies have any idea what they are doing, and if they even test these oils to see what they can really do.

So, let’s take a look at the wear protection these oils and several other Break-In oils, actually provide, and see how they rank just among themselves, according to their “Load Carrying Capacity/Film Strength" psi value. This data will tell us once and for all, what the Oil Companies would not, and that is, whether the oils are formulated to “allow” wear or “prevent” wear.

The Wear Protection reference categories are:
• Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection
• 90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection
• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection
• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection
• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection

The higher the psi , the better the Wear Protection



1. 30wt Amsoil Break-In Oil conventional = 78,192 psi
zinc = 2051 ppm
phos = 1917 ppm
moly = 0 ppm


2. 30wt Edelbrock Break-In Oil conventional = 69,160 psi
zinc = 1545 ppm
phos = 1465 ppm
moly = 4 ppm


3. Royal Purple 10W30 Break-In Oil, conventional = 62,931 psi
zinc = 1170 ppm
phos = 1039 ppm
moly = 0 ppm


4. Crane Cams 10W40 Break-In Oil, conventional = 62,603 psi
zinc = TBD, but bottle claims high zinc formula
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


5. 30wt Brad Penn, Penn Grade 1, Break-In Oil, conventional = 56,020 psi
zinc = TBD, but the bottle claims high zinc
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


6. 10W30 Comp Cams Break-In Oil, conventional = 51,749 psi
zinc = 3004 ppm
phos = 2613 ppm
moly = 180 ppm


7. 15W50 Joe Gibbs Driven BR Break-In oil, conventional = 51,299 psi
NOTE: Total Seal also sells this Break-In Oil with their label on it.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


8. 30wt Lucas Break-In Oil, conventional = 49,455 psi
zinc = 4483 ppm
phos = 3660 ppm
moly = 3 ppm


9. 5W30 Joe Gibbs Driven BR30 Break-In Oil, conventional = 47,483 psi
NOTE: Total Seal also sells this Break-In Oil with their label on it.
zinc = TBD
phos = TBD
moly = TBD


Anyone who has followed my previous oil tests, knows that the wear protection capability psi values provided by most of these Break-In oils is quite low overall. Only the Amsoil made it into the GOOD WEAR PROTECTION category (75,000 to 90,000 psi). Edelbrock, Royal Purple and Crane Cams oils made it into the MODEST WEAR PROTECTION category (60,000 to 75,000 psi), while the Brad Penn, Comp Cams, Lucas and both Joe Gibbs Break-In oils managed only the UNDESIRABLE PROTECTION category (below 60,000 psi).

In comparison, the highest ranking oil (with no aftermarket additives) on my Wear Protection Ranking List, is 5W30 Motul 300V Ester Core 4T Racing Oil, synthetic = 112,464 psi, with a zinc level of 1724 ppm. That oil provides FAR GREATER wear protection capability than even the top ranked Amsoil Break-In oil here. And it provides nearly 2 1/2 times as much wear protection as the lowest ranked Joe Gibbs Break-In oil here.

So, now we finally know that because of their low wear protection capabilities, these Break-In oils are formulated only to allow wear, and are NOT formulated to provide a high level of wear protection. Of course it was impossible for them to be capable of both things at the same time, in spite of their advertising claims. And without the type of dynamic wear testing performed here, we would have never known what these Break-In oils were truly formulated for. To see how all 9 Break-In Oils rank in the overall Ranking List with over 150 different oils, go to the Oil Test Data Blog link below.

Every oil test I've performed, showed that the level of zinc has nothing to do with an oil's wear protection capability, nor its ranking against other oils. And we've seen it yet again here, that high zinc levels do NOT always provide better wear protection. In fact, the ULTRA HIGH zinc Lucas Break-In oil, ended up in next to last place in wear protection capability for this group of Break-In oils, and in the overall RankingLlist of over 150 different oils, it also ended up in next to last place.

And no one can complain that my test equipment and test procedure do not allow high zinc oils to perform at their highest level. Because here are some high zinc (over 1100 ppm) conventional, semi-synthetic, and full synthetic oils that I’ve tested previously. And they all had test results over 90,000 psi, which put them all in the “OUTSTANDING WEAR PROTECTION” category.


5W30 Motul 300V Ester Core 4T Racing Oil, synthetic = 112,464 psi
zinc = 1724 ppm
phosphorus = 1547 ppm
moly = 481 ppm


10W30 Lucas Racing Only, full synthetic = 106,505 psi
zinc = 2642 ppm
phos = 3489 ppm
moly = 1764 ppm


5W30 Joe Gibbs Driven LS30 Performance Motor Oil, synthetic = 104,487 psi
zinc = 1610 ppm
phosphorus = 1496 ppm
moly = 0 ppm


10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
moly = 784 ppm


10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil (silver bottle) = 103,505 psi
zinc = 1472 ppm
phos = 1544 ppm
moly = 3 ppm


10W30 Valvoline VR1 Synthetic Racing Oil, API SL (black bottle) = 101,139 psi
zinc = 1180 ppm
phos = 1112 ppm
moly = 162 ppm


30 wt Red Line Race Oil, full synthetic = 96,470 psi
zinc = 2207 ppm
phos = 2052 ppm
moly = 1235 ppm


10W30 Amsoil Z-Rod Oil, full synthetic = 95,360 psi
zinc = 1431 ppm
phos = 1441 ppm
moly = 52 ppm


10W30 Quaker State Defy, API SL (semi-synthetic) = 90,226 psi
zinc = 1221 ppm
phos = 955 ppm
moly = 99 ppm

Continued below:

 

[grumpyvette]

Continued here:

As you've seen above in the poor performing high zinc break-in oils and immediately above in the excellent performing high zinc non-break-in oils, the zinc levels completely overlap among all those poor performing and excellent performing oils. So, that is absolute proof once and for all, that you simply CANNOT predict an oil's wear protection capability based on its zinc level alone.

Now the brainwashed high zinc believers have ironclad data to show them that everything they have always believed about only needing to look at zinc levels, is total nonsense. Zinc levels alone are completely worthless. Only film strength/load carrying capability from dynamic wear testing under load, can tell us which oils provide good wear protection and which oils don't. If the high zinc believers don't grasp the value of this information, then they will never be able to select the best possible oil for their needs.

A fair number of people have been able to get away with using these poor performing Break-In oils in high performance flat tappet engines without a problem. But, they typically were only able to do that with these oils by following elaborate and worrisome break-in procedures. Those break-in procedures typically include removal of the inner valve springs, to reduce the pressure between the lobes and lifters. They also typically follow the routine of keeping the engine at around 2,500 rpm for 20 minutes, etc, etc. Everything they do as part of their elaborate and nerve wracking break-in procedure, is only a crutch to prevent wiping lobes because these break-in oils provide such poor wear protection. But, if high ranking oils were selected instead, and used for Break-In, people wouldn't have to go through all that, because NO elaborate break-in procedures would be required with those far superior high ranking oils.

People think they have to go through all this break-in agony, because they assume parts quality isn't that high, even when using parts from reputable Industry leading companies. They never even consider for a moment that their beloved high zinc oils are to blame. But, as you can see above, these break-in oils show that they put flat tappet engines at serious risk of failure, because of their poor wear protection capability, even though they have high zinc levels. People typically believe they are getting sufficient wear protection because of all that zinc, from what the bottles and/or websites claim. But, now we know that the hype about great wear protection was nothing more than false advertising snake oil. These oils are formulated only to allow wear, by having low wear protection capability, in spite of their high zinc levels.

And that is precisely why there are still so many flat tappet wiped lobe engine failures at break-in and shortly thereafter. When people use these poor performing break-in oils, in flat tappet engines, they are simply playing Russian Roulette with their engines. They may be OK, or they may suffer engine failure. It's extremely iffy, because the margin of safety is about zero with these oils. But, it does NOT have to be that way if a highly ranked oil is chosen instead.

It's a similar situation where a fair number of people have managed to get away with using low zinc oils with aftermarket zinc additives added into those oils, for breaking-in high performance flat tappet engines. Some people were able to squeak by with this type of oil concoction that also provides only minimal wear protection capability. But, quite a few people have experienced wiped lobe engine failure doing this. These people also "thought" they were getting outstanding wear protection, from what those zinc additive bottles and/or websites claimed. But, Engineering test data has proven over and over again, that simply having high zinc levels, is no guarantee of having sufficient wear protection.

I tested the zinc additives "ZDDPlus" which added a whopping 1848 ppm zinc when added at the recommended quantity, and "Edelbrock Zinc Additive" which added 573 ppm zinc when added at the recommended quantity. Each zinc additive was tested in two full synthetic oils and one conventional oil. And in EVERYONE of the six test oils, the wear protection capability DROPPED SIGNIFICANTLY.

The "ZDDPlus" caused a drop of about 25% on average, and the "Edelbrock Zinc Additive" caused a drop of about 34% on average. The oils with the "ZDDPlus" ended up having a "Load carrying capacity/Film strength" of only 58,855 psi on average. And the oils with the "Edelbrock Zinc Additive" ended up having a "Load carrying capacity/Film strength" of only 51,930 psi on average. That puts them into the UNDESIRABLE PROTECTION category (below 60,000 psi). So, the wear protection capability of these oil concoctions, was right in the exact same range as most of the Break-In oils tested here. Oil Companies have typically said to NEVER add anything to motor oil, because doing that will ruin an oil's carefully balanced additive package and its resulting chemical properties. And they were absolutely correct, because that is precisely what the test data showed.

It's also a similar situation where a fair number of people have managed to get away with using Diesel oils for breaking-in high performance flat tappet engines. They were able to squeak by with Diesel oil even though these oils also provide only minimal wear protection capability, which puts their engines at a substantial risk of failure. These folks "thought" they were getting outstanding wear protection. But, I tested 13 different popular conventional and synthetic Diesel oils, including the "OLD" Rotella, and they had a "Load carrying capacity/Film strength" of only 72,408 psi on average, putting them in the MODEST PROTECTION category (60,000 to 75,000 psi). This wear protection capability puts them right at the upper range of the Break-In oils tested here.

To summarize, most of the Break-In oils, the low zinc oils with aftermarket zinc added to them, and the Diesel oils, provided about the same level of modest to undesirable wear protection in gasoline engines. And that makes most of them a risky proposition for use as Break-In oils.

This points out that all the effort, including elaborate break-in procedures, that people go through with these motor oils, in order to prevent wiped lobes in High Performance flat tappet engines, is misguided because these oils DO NOT provide the best wear protection in the first place. There are far better motor oil choices readily available.

Many people probably have a gut feeling that whatever Break-In oil they use, should not be overly protective against wear, so that components can break-in quickly. That's why you often hear people say to break-in an engine with conventional oil, then later switch to synthetic, even though they aren't aware that an oil being conventional or synthetic does not determine its wear protection capability.

But, then the flat tappet guys often want to have max protection against wear to avoid wiped lobes. So, they will then often choose conventional oil with high levels of zinc, "falsely believing" that will help increase the oil's wear protection. But, as mentioned many times before, "wear testing" and "lab testing" have ALWAYS shown that the level of zinc does NOT determine an oil's wear protection capability. No more than the level of gas in your tank determines how much HP your engine makes.

We've only looked at the "lower end" of the spectrum of Break-In oils, which are formulated to allow break-in wear. But, since things just aren't that simple, let's also take a look at the "upper" end of the spectrum of Break-In oils. Consider the following facts.

Countless thousands of brand new Performance cars have come off the production line, factory filled with full synthetic motor oil. We've seen this for years in both domestic and import Performance Cars. Perhaps the most commonly known is the full synthetic 5W30 Mobil 1 that comes in High Performance GM vehicles. Also the Ford GT Sports Car of a few years back, as well as Ford's Supercharged Shelby GT500 Mustangs, came factory filled with full synthetic 5W50 Motorcraft oil.

That full synthetic 5W30 Mobil 1, API SN oil ranks in the top 10% of all the oils I've tested, with a “Load carrying capacity/Film strength" value of 105,875 psi. And the full synthetic 5W50 Motorcraft, API SN oil also ranks in the top 10% of all the oils I've tested, with a “Load carrying capacity/Film strength" value of 103,517 psi. With the extremely impressive wear protection capability provided by these oils, if any oils would interfere with ring seal and proper break-in wear overall, these oils would be the ones to do it. But, that is simply not a problem, and of course these vehicles all come with a normal factory warranty.

CONCLUSION:

We know that countless High Performance factory engines, both 2 valve and 4 valve, have nicely broken-in for many, many years with NO ring sealing problems what so ever, using various oils with high wear protection capability. In addition to that, using oils with excellent wear protection capability, has worked perfectly fine for breaking-in in traditional High Performance flat tappet engines, and have proven that NO elaborate break-in procedures are required at all. You can simply fire the engine and drive the car with no drama and no worries. Try doing that with the poor performing high zinc Break-In oils.

So, why would anyone ever believe that you need so-called Break-In Oils with poor their wear protection capability, when these oils are simply NOT needed for ring seal (properly built engines will seal/seat their rings almost immediately no matter what oil is used), and they put High Performance flat tappet engines at serious risk of wiped lobe engine failure? Plus, they require elaborate break-in procedures if there is any hope at all of getting away with using these poor performing oils. Bottom Line: So-called Break-In oils are simply not necessary and can also put flat tappet engines at serious risk.

If you wondered how those factory full synthetic oils with "high wear protection capability" and how any other synthetic or conventional oil with "high wear protection capability", can still allow proper break-in, here's the answer. Newly manufactured parts will have a surface that "microscopically" looks like peaks and valleys. The loading on those tiny little peaks, will be EXTREMELY high, because the load is not spread out across enough surface area to support the load. And no motor oil ever made by man can stop those peaks from being very quickly worn down, thus leaving a smoother surface that will distribute the load across a surface area large enough to support that load. And that is precisely what happens during actual break-in wear. So, it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE to stop break-in wear, no matter how hard we try. And that is a good thing, because we want that initial break-in wear, so that our part interfaces are nicely mated to each other in order to support the loads involved.

Engine break-in is NOT Rocket Science. You just need to make a wise choice when selecting the motor oil to use. At the end of the day, here's what I recommend:

* For traditional flat tappet engines, no matter how wicked they may be - use a highly ranked oil from my Wear Protection Ranking list, no matter how much zinc is in it, for break-in to protect against wiped lobes, and a side benefit is that no elaborate break-in procedures will be necessary. Then continue to use the same oil after break-in. NOTE: This recommendation also applies to any other non-roller type engine.

* For traditional roller lifter engines - since they don't have flat tappet lifter/lobe interfaces, their break-in is not as critical as it is for flat tappet engines. So, you can pretty much use any oil you have sitting around, and it won't make any particular difference for break-in. However, with that said, I would still recommend using a highly ranked oil from my Wear Protection Ranking list, no matter how much zinc is in it, for break-in. Because roller engines still have various component interfaces that can benefit from using oils that provide excellent wear protection. Then continue to use the same oil after break-in. NOTE: This recommendation also applies to any other roller type engine.

No matter what anyone tells you, the same oil can be used just fine for both break-in and after break-in. These above recommendations have proven to work very well in the real world, while providing excellent protection for your engine.

Other points I'd suggest are:

• Always prime an engine, making sure that oil is coming out of all rockers, right before first fire.

• Use a thinner oil such as 5W30 or 10W30, rather than something thicker. Because thinner oil will flow quicker/better. And flow is lubrication. Also quicker/better flow will get oil to all components sooner which is very important to prevent unnecessary wear during cold start-up. And the quicker/better flow of thinner oil, will also carry away heat quicker/better than what thicker oils can. Remember that engine internal parts are DIRECTLY oil cooled, but only INDIRECTLY water cooled.

• And the last thing is to change the oil soon after initial break-in, to get rid of all the contaminants that will be present right after first firing a brand new engine.

This write-up is essentially a stand-alone article, that should not require much question answering. I will not have the opportunity to follow along with the discussion that comes out of this. But, the answers to any questions that may still come up, can generally be found in link below.

540 RAT

Mechanical Engineer

U.S. Patent Holder

Member SAE (Society of Automotive Engineers)

Member ASME (American Society of Mechanical Engineers)

[/url]

 

[87vette81big]

I will read later today Grumpy.
I pay attention to your own notes and recommendations 1st.

ZDDP PLUS ON MY MIND.

 

[87vette81big]

According to 540 Rat I can break in my T/A Ram Air 4 455 on Full synthetic oil Grumpy.

I stocked up on GM EOS . Engine Oil Supplement .
BOUGHT 5 BOTTLES NOS.
ALSO HAVE A CAN OF ORIGINAL GM EOS FROM 1969.

USED GM EOS IN PAST. NO ISSUES .
What do You think Grumpy ?

 

[grumpyvette]

Ive had excellent results using VALVOLINE race ,10W30 Valvoline NSL (Not Street Legal) Conventional Racing Oil = 103,846 psi LISTED ABOVE
zinc = 1669 ppm
phos = 1518 ppm
moly = 784 ppm

READ THIS LINK AND IDEALLY SELECT AN OIL RATED AT OVER 100,000 PSI then ADD the wear reducing additive of your choice , PERSONALLY IVE had zero problems with MARVEL MYSTERY OIL AND ZDDP PLUS added to VALVOLINE OR SHELL OR MOBILE ONE OILS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/which-oil-what-viscosity.1334/
BUT Ive successfully used TEXACO, and SHELL 10w30 oils with one of the break-in additives and mixing those with a quart of MMO, and a break-in additive, is not as important in my opinion as coating the cam lobes and lifters with a good moly paste and placing a few magnets in the engine to trop metallic debris, and checking the clearances, then once the cam is lapped in, replacing the oil and oil filter after 3-4 hours run in time
most cam failures I see are RELATED to INCORRECT CLEARANCE issues, or failure to even check clearances, OR use of the wrong valve spring load rates, not the OIL USED, guys always want to blame the cam manufacturer or the oil, and its usually a failure to verify clearances thats the issue

1052367
ENGOILSUP
EOS - Engine Assembly Prelube<BR>Specifically formulated as an engine assembly lubricant. E.O.S. provides outstanding protection against run-in wear and piston scuffing as well as run-in camshaft lobe and lifter scuffing resulting from insufficient lubrication

very good

very very good

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=1489&p=3360&hilit=erson+break+in#p3360

BUYING A TOOL and DOING SOME PERSONAL LOOKING AT THE INTERNAL PARTS HELPS

you might be amazed at what youll see with a tool that allows a close visual inspection of a filters internal components rather than makes un-informed random guesses.
actually knowing what your dealing with is helpful,reading some links and doing research is also much more likely to produce informed answers than engaging in a (IS TOO! VS IS NOT! ) style discussion with someone else whos equally un-informed

its basically a heavy duty can opener , or an oil filter cutter , is designed to make it easy to internally inspect oil filters, by allowing you to remove the filter element , from inside the surrounding (CAN) for close visual inspection.

 

[87vette81big]

I like MMO.
MARVEL MYSTERY OIL GRUMPY. HAVE IT AT 1 QUART.

HAVE ISKENDARIAN MOLY CAMSHAFT LUBE.
WILL USE IT.

HAVE TO TRACK DOWN CME MOLY PASTE.
TOOTHPASTE TUBE.

HAVE CLEAVITE BEARING GUARD.
MY FAVORITE .

ENGINE WILL BE BLUEPRINTED.
NO CHANCES.

ALWAYS USED CASTROL 10W30 DINO OIL FOR BREAKIN ON MY OWN.

1 BOTTLE OF GM NOS POURED OVER THE LIFTER VALLEY AND CAM LIFTERS BEFORE PUSHROD COVER INSTALLED.

 

[87vette81big]

GM EOS that is.

Vavoline VR-1 10W30 race oil I have to special order.
Trip to Joliet Chicago pick it up in person at the Speed Race Shop.

 

[Loves302Chevy]

I'm sure glad I read this. I will be breaking in my flat tappet 334 Chevy soon and I was going to add Howards Cams Max Z.P.M. Camshaft Break-In Lube. I bought 30 bottles when I could not get ZDDP Plus anymore.
"The most important product for proper flat tappet camshaft break-in available. This is true for both hydraulic and mechanical flat tappet camshafts. Virtually eliminates cam and lifter wear at initial break-in. Replaces the Zinc-Phosphates (ZDDP) removed from today's oils. High levels of Zinc-Phosphates (60,000 ppm Zinc, 42,000 ppm Phosphates), plus the addition of moly for extra protection. Compatible with all petroleum base and synthetic oils. Just add one 4 ounce bottle for up to 6 quarts of oil."
The cam lobes & lifters are already coated with CraneCams Moly assembly lube. So I will use 10W30 Valvoline Conventional Racing Oil with a bottle of the older stock (better) EOS and a quart of Marvel Mystery oil for break-in. After 3-4 hrs run time - 10W30 Valvoline Conventional Racing Oil. And after 1000 miles I will switch to full synthetic Mobil 1. Thanks again, Mike.

 

[philly]

i get good prices on VR1 on amazon.com... usually 30-35 bucks for 6 quarts and amazon shipping is always within a week for all customers but since im a prime member, 2 day shipping is free.. good stuff

 

[87vette81big]

I will check out VR1 on Amazon.
Like going to my Favorite Speed shop.
Sometimes catch the Chicago Race legends there.
The Old Racing Guard. Wisdom & Stories shared are priceless Phil.
Arnie Beswick stops in at times.
All there know I am Mr. Pontiac too.

 

[philly]

oh definitely, the speed shop is like the local watering hole where all the beasts come together to get what they need

 

[Grumpy]

Below is how 5 different High Mileage oils ranked just among themselves, regarding wear protection capability, after they were tested.

The Wear protection reference categories are:

• Over 105,000 psi = INCREDIBLE wear protection

• 90,000 to 105,000 psi = OUTSTANDING wear protection

• 75,000 to 90,000 psi = GOOD wear protection

• 60,000 to 75,000 psi = MODEST wear protection

• Below 60,000 psi = UNDESIRABLE wear protection
http://www.drivenracingoil.com/news/dro/training-center/articles/zinc-in-motor-oil/

1. 5W30 Valvoline MaxLife High Mileage, API SN, synthetic blend = 108,045 psi

2. 5W30 Pennzoil High Mileage Vehicle, API SN, conventional = 102,402 psi

3. 5W30 Castrol GTX High Mileage, API SN, synthetic blend = 91,404 psi

4. 10W30 Quaker State Defy High Mileage, API SL semi-synthetic = 90,226 psi

5. 5W30 Mobil 1 High Mileage, API SL, synthetic = 88,081 psi

 

[Loves302Chevy]

Sorry for bringing this up again, but can I get thoughts on the following (especially Grumpy): (please refer to my previous post above)
After many more hours researching oils and additives, I have finally decided what oils to use for breaking in and running my engine. For break-in I like Amsoil SAE30 Conventional Break-in Oil 78,192 psi Z 2051 P 1917 M 0 better than 5W30 Joe Gibbs Driven BR30 Break-In Oil, conventional = 47,483 psi because of Amsoil's higher anti-wear number. For running, I like the rest of Joe Gibbs products. Here is what I received from Lake Speed, Jr at Joe Gibbs DRIVEN today:
My post:
I have spent approximately 80 hours researching engine oils and additives on the internet, including your website, trying to make some sense out of all the claims and test data. I have decided to use your products because you do the one important thing that all of the others don't - real world testing!
I have what amounts to a newly rebuilt Gen 1 SB Chevy, daily driven, 350 hp hydraulic flat tappet crate engine going back into an 84 TransAm with a Quadrajet carb. The cam & lifters failed and sent all that metal through the engine - damaging nearly everything.
The engine has a Crane cam, Delphi (Eaton) Anti-Pump Up Hydraulic lifters, grooved lifter bores, CompCams roller tip rockers, and the valvetrain geometry is perfect. Lower pressure break-in valve springs are currently installed and the running springs will have 123# valve closed and 317# valve open.
After the initial break-in and dialing the engine in on my test stand, I plan to use DRIVEN HR 10W30 High Zinc Conventional Hot Rod oil, changing it and the filter at 500 miles, 3500, and 6500 miles. Then I was planning to switch to DRIVEN HR 10W30 High Zinc Synthetic Hot Rod Oil. But I was reading about your LS30 Synthetic and I think this oil might be an even better choice.
I was also hoping to get double the mileage with the synthetic (6000 miles) by changing the filter after 3000 miles of use and adding the proper amount of Howards Max ZPM additive to replace the zinc, phosphorus, & moly; and 1/2 QT of Marvel Mystery oil to replace the detergents and go for another 3000 miles. I know you can't make recommendations about another company's products, but I would value your opinions. Mike.
Reply:
Michael,

Thanks for the email. I am sorry to hear about the cam failure you experienced. The good news is that you should never have to experience that again. Also, I appreciate your technical description of your application.

In regards to a recommendation, I'm going to tell you what I would do if that were my engine.

Break-In: Use the BR30 break-in oil and pre-lube the cam and lifters with the Driven Engine Assembly Grease. Cam break-in is 30 minutes at 3,000 RPM. Following that, drain the oil and change the filter. Install a fresh fill of BR30 and a new oil filter. Put 500 miles on the BR30 and then install the Driven HR2 10W-30 conventional hot rod oil. Put 1,500 miles on the HR2 oil. Following that, install a new filter and the HR4 10W-30 synthetic hot rod oil. Put 3,000 miles on the first oil change, and then you can run 4,500 miles for the subsequent oil changes. DO NOT USE any extra additives. Additional ZDDP raises the acid level and reduces the TBN of the oil, which shortens the life of the oil.

We recently broke in a flat tappet cam with 150# on the seat and 350# open, so we know the BR30 will get the job done for you. We also know from running our 450HP test engine, that the HR4 will give you the required protection at those spring pressures without any additional additives.

One other thing you can do to help the oil and your carburetor is using the Driven Carb Defender fuel additive. Since your car is a daily driver, you only need to use a bottle every time you change the oil. This is a fuel treatment, so obviously it goes in the gas tank. However, the cleaning and anti-oxidant package in the fuel additive also gets into the oil due to the amount of fuel dilution in the oil from the carburetor. This helps the oil stay good longer, and the Carb Defender protects your carb from the effects of ethanol in the fuel. Again, you only need to use the Carb Defender about every 3,000 to 4,500 miles.

This complete package is quite effective at protecting older engines. Please let me know if you have any other questions.

Thanks,

Lake Speed, Jr.
STLE Certified Lubrication Specialist & OMA I Oil Analyst
Driven Racing Oil - Born From Joe Gibbs Racing, Driven To Win
13201 Reese Blvd W, Suite 300
Huntersville, NC 28078
704-239-4401
lspeed@drivenracingoil.com

Your thoughts (please) on my plans for dosing the synthetic running oil to double its mileage. The synthetic base stocks are so good today that I would hate to throw away oil that still has plenty miles left in it. That and the cost. What used to cost $1.00/qt now is more that 10 times that. Mike.

 

[Grumpy]

well my first thought after reading through the post above, is that, REPLY advice seems both a bit complicated to follow and while it may work out,just fine,and be totally valid advice , it seems like mostly a sales pitch to move additional products.
Im sorry to hear you had a problem,I think you did most things correctly from reading the info posted, but chances are very good something is binding or restricting oil flow.
Why do I say that! its just my experience, that on inspecting most engines that had rapid cam lobe/lifter wear issues, it was traced to a clearance issue, mis-matched components,improper valve adjustment or improper lube flow rates.
Ive had excellent results using
VALVOLINE , MOBILE ONE,
even SHELL and TEXICO BRAND OIL,
mixed with a quart of MMO,
the cam and lifter bases must be coated with a good moly paste,
ALL CLEARANCES MUST BE CHECKED
I can,t remember loosing a cam/lifter during the first 30K miles in decades, on any engine I built or built for the local guys.
the clearances and rocker geometry (push rod length,spring bind rocker to rocker stud clearance, etc.) must be checked carefully prior to starting the engine,and adding the magnets sure helps.
in every case Ive seen, in the past,
where a cam and lifter failed during the break-in process,
over the last 45 years,
careful inspection showed some component in the valve train was binding,
clearances or geometry was not correct , the valves were adjusted improperly, or the proper moly paste and lubricants were not used.
and Id point out that some lifters and cam cores sold by some manufacturers do tend to be more suceptable as I suspect they are noticeably softer materials

I use mostly
CRANE
LUNATI
ERSON
CROWER
and ocasionally
ISKY

notice RHOADS LIFTERS have an OPTIONAL oil groove,feature of similar design, but due to the requirement for fast and easy manufacturing they also extend the groove upward from the oil passage band so it will squirt oil up out of the lifter bores into the lifter gallery where it does little good, rather than just to the cam & lifter interface area where it does help cool and lubricate the area under stress.

the better quality hydraulic and solid flat tappet lifters have hardened bases

btw the best deal I found lately on basic hydraulic flat tappet lifters
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-ht817/overview/

SOME ROLLER ROCKERS CAN AND DO BIND ON ROCKER STUDS, or rocker adjustment nuts, youll need to check carefully

the brand or part number won,t mater much if the valve train binds during the arc, the cam lobe will wear and the rocker will eventually fail under the stress.

most good brand name aluminum or steel roller rockers have pressed in hardened steel push rod seats that are far less likely to wear than the tips of the push rods.

OBVIOUSLY that assumes you have no valve train clearance issues, binding or geometry or lubrication issues, and you set the lash or lifter pre-load on the valve train correctly and use the correct oil, and it certainly would help any engines durability to have provisions for adequate valve train oiling and a bit extra valve train cooling can be helpful on an engine designed for higher rpm use.verify rocker body and trunion clearance at ALL points in the rockers arc. VERY CAREFULLY

THIS STUFF WORKS
HERES A FEW OF THE OILS I TRUST, coat flat tappet lifters and cam lobes with crane moly assembly paste lube

I usually use 6-7 quarts of oil and 1 quart of marvel mystery oil added in my oil pan 11 quart oil pan and oil cooler system capacity
10W30 Valvoline VR1 Conventional Racing Oil
10W30 Valvoline NSL
10w30 Castrol GTX conventional,
10w30 mobile 1
10w30 KENDAL racing oil

and heres a good break in additive for flat tappet lifter cams
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CRO-86092
http://www.acdelco.com/auto-parts/v...engine-oil-supplement-assembly-lubricant.html

http://www.engineersedge.com/lubrication/molybdenum_disulfide_characteristics.htm
Moly exists as microscopic hexagonal crystal platelets Several molecules make up one of these platelets. A single molecule of Moly contains two sulfur atoms and one molybdenum atom. Moly platelets are attracted to metal surfaces. This attraction and the force of moving engine parts rubbing across one another provide the necessary thermochemical reaction necessary for Moly to form an overlapping protective coating like armor on all of your engine parts. This protective armor coating has a number of properties that are very beneficial for your engine.

The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces slide across one another very easily. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts.

This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance.

This overlapping coating of Moly also gives protection against loading (perpendicular) forces. These forces occur on the bearings, and lifters. The high pressures that occur between these moving parts tend to squeeze normal lubricants out.


very good

very very good

yes the additives in the the quart of MMO you can add to your crank case oil, do a good job of breaking up and holding in suspension oil sludge and transporting it to the oil filter

http://car-diesel-oil.blogspot.com/2015/06/best-motor-oil-car-oil-lab-test-for_63.html?view=sidebar
The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces slide across one another very easily. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts.

MOLY adds a great deal of lubrication to sliding metal surfaces , as it embeds in the micro fissures in the metallic surface's

This coating effectively fills in the microscopic pores that cover the surface of all engine parts, making them smoother. This feature is important in providing an effective seal on the combustion chamber. By filling in the craters and pores Moly improves this seal allowing for more efficient combustion and engine performance.

This overlapping coating of Moly also gives protection against loading (perpendicular) forces. These forces occur on the bearings, and lifters. The high pressures that occur between these moving parts tend to squeeze normal lubricants out.

changing the oil filter after an hour or so of run time, and use of several magnets in the engine will reduce the potential for trash in the oil

RELATED

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-clearances-and-problems.528/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/magnets.120/#post-49772

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/best-tips-breaking-new-camshaft/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ear-articles-you-need-to-read.282/#post-52017

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...lifter-to-increase-oil-flow.11152/#post-49968

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/breaking-in-a-new-engine-combo.799/#post-1161

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ilter-you-sellect-does-make-a-differance.117/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...oil-passages-and-improved-oil-flow-mods.3834/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rally-bad-ideas-concerning-oil-control.10388/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rocker-push-rod-wear-issues.9815/#post-37266

heres an old comparison of many popular oils done by streetcommodores.com in PDF format, requires adobe viewer but its very enlightening

http://www.animegame.com/cars/Oil Tests.pdf


Understanding the Differences in Base Oil Groups
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... oil-groups

How to Distinguish Between Mineral and Synthetic Oils
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... thetic-oil

When is It Hot Enough for a Synthetic?
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... -synthetic

When to Switch to a Synthetic Oil
http://www.machinerylubrication.com/Rea ... -synthetic

Roller cam break in
http://www.onallcylinders.com/2015/06/24/roller-derby-how-to-properly-break-in-a-roller-camshaft/

Roller Derby: How to Break In a Roller Camshaft
Posted by David Fuller


By now, it’s common practice (or should be) to use break-in oil with ZDDP or a zinc additive for a flat-tappet camshaft.

But what about roller cams? Any old oil will work for that, right?

According top engine builders, ring manufacturers, and cam grinders, the answer is no. And the reason is pretty simple.

While the rings need to be seated in a roller, an oil that “wears-in” the rings will create a lot of fine metal particulate, and that particulate is a killer for your roller cam. According to Timken, the number-one reason for premature roller bearing failure is particulate contamination. An engine creates more particulate wear metal during break-in than at any other time. In fact the “normal” wear metals for a new engine are up to four times higher than after a engine has finished breaking-in—hence the term “breaking-in.”

So what does this have to do with motor oil?

Quite simply, not all break-in oils are the same. Some break-in oils are designed to accelerate the break-in process, and as a result, these oils generate higher levels of wear metal—bad news for your roller bearings. Other oils are friction modified. The added slipperiness of these oils can prevent the rings from seating properly

Striking the right balance is critical.

Driven BR break-in oil, for example, was formulated to help Joe Gibbs Racing with its engine program. Mark Cronquist, Chief Engineer Builder at Joe Gibbs Racing, says the break-in oil has two jobs: protect the valvetrain and not hinder ring seal.

“With a compacted graphite block and tool steel rings, the materials are very hard, so if the oil is too slippery, the rings won’t seat properly,” Cronquist said. “We still have a valvetrain with roller bearings that need protection as well, so the break-in oil features a high anti-wear formulation without friction modifiers to chemically assist the ring sealing. This strategy reduces the amount of wear metals created during break-in, and that protects the roller bearings in the valvetrain.”

Another aspect of roller cam break-in to consider is the high spring pressures and contact loads the cam, lifters, pushrods, and rockers see. While these loads would spell death to a flat-tappet cam, the high ZDDP anti-wear package of a break-in oil also protects these components during that critical break-in period.

Think of a break-in oil like a primer. Putting down primer before you paint establishes a uniform coating to build from, and that is exactly what a break-in oil does—it establishes a uniform anti-wear film that provides the foundation for protection. Just like a thick coat of primer smoothes out a surface, a properly formulated break-in oil does the same thing. The protective layer of ZDDP anti-wear film smoothes out the peaks and valleys that comprise the microscopic surfaces on the roller wheels and needle bearings. A smooth surface enables greater load carrying with less fatigue.

The more aggressive the valvetrain, the more critical these details become.

“It is hard to fall off the bottom of the mountain,” said Brian Reese from COMP Cams. “The more aggressive the valvetrain is in terms of lift, duration, and spring pressure, the less margin of error you have. The little details become critical.”

According to Reese, using a break-in oil is just part of the equation.

“We are seeing a trend away from flat-tappet engines to avoid the oil issues related to flat tappet cams, but just because you have a roller cam does not mean that it does not have to be broken in properly,” Reese said. “NASCAR level engine programs like Joe Gibbs Racing are still doing a 30-minute break-in on their roller cam engines because they have learned the hard way what happens when they don’t.”

Reese says improper break-in will catch up with you eventually.

“If you get the break-in wrong with a flat tappet cam, it dies right in front of your face,” he said. “If you get the break-in wrong with a roller cam, it may not die until several thousands of miles down the road, but the problem began at break-in.”

Here are a few break-in tips from the experts:

1. 
   
   
   • Wash off the rust preventative coating that is on the parts prior to installation. Parts are shipped with a preventative coating, and it needs to be removed for lubricants to function at maximum efficiency.
   • Apply a calcium-sulfonate grease instead of ZDDP before assembly. While ZDDP is critical in the break-in process, it is not the best assembly lube. After cleaning the camshaft and lifters, apply calcium-sulfonate for protection and lasting lubrication during initial start-up. Then, soak your roller lifters in break-in oil.
   • Use a finer micron filter during break-in.
   • Prime the pump before firing the engine. This ensures a critical supply of oil to the cam and lifters at initial start-up.
   • Do not idle the engine. Bring the engine up to 2,500 rpm and vary the speed by a few hundred rpm for 20-30 minutes.
   • After a 30-minute break-in, change the oil filter. At this point, you have removed all the larger particles that could cause problems and you can start upping the flow rate of your filter.
   • Change the oil and filter after initial break-in. Most of the wear metals created by an engine occur during the first hour of operation.

By properly breaking in your roller camshaft, you’ll ensure maximum performance and long life.

 

[Grumpy]

Originally Posted by Howards Cams Catalog p.161
The first few minutes of engine operation after installing a
new cam are critical. It takes time for the engine’s oiling
system to reach efficiency and while you’re waiting for
that to happen, metal-to metal contact can occur. If it
does, something is going to fail then or later. Especially
critical is the lifter/cam lobe area. If metal touches metal
here without benefit of solid lubrication, galling will occur
and something (the lifter, the lobe or both) is going to fail.
To prevent these and similar problems not covered by any
warranty, please follow the steps outlined here:
1) New lifters must be installed with any new cam installation.
The surface of a new lifter, which rides on the cam
lobe, has a spherical shape with a 0.002” crown, which is
almost impossible to detect. Used lifters won’t have that
crown and will quickly destroy cam lobes (see Fig. 2.
“How to Install a Performance Camshaft”). Note: that if
you later take your engine apart, lifters must be reinstalled
in the bore from which they were removed. Each lifter
wears in a way that mates it to a given cam lobe; switching
lifters is the same as using old lifters with a new cam.
2) Install the valve train components (lifters, valves,
springs, etc.) recommended by the cam manufacturer.
These items have been tested and proven for compatibility
with the cam.
3) Coat the cam lobes, distributor drive gear, lifter cam
faces and other critical components with a moly-disulfide
lube like our Camshaft and Engine Assembly Lube for
protection against metal-to-metal contact during initial
break-in.
4) Check the entire valve train for interference and adequate
clearance during assembly. The four areas of major
concern are covered in “How to Install a Performance
Camshaft.”
5) Fill the oil pan with top-quality MS-DG engine oil meeting
the SAE or API specifications set by the engine manufacturer.
A Pennsylvania-based detergent oil is preferred. Use a
straight viscosity of 20W or 30W for break-in; do not
switch to a multi-viscosity oil until after the break-in period.
For flat tappet applications, a zinc-phosphorous
additive must be added, such as MAX Z.P.M. (99000),
to the engine oil during break-in.
6) Before starting the engine be sure:
• The valves are correctly adjusted. Set solid lifters 0.003”
to 0.005” tighter than specified.
• To prime the oil system by turning the oil pump manually
until pressure is indicated on the oil gauge. Be sure
crankcase is filled to proper (normal) level.
• To put gas in the carburetor float bowls, prime the
accelerator pump and have gas in the tank.
• There’s water in the radiator.
• The battery is charged.
• Nothing will get caught in the fan, fan belts, and alternator/
generator belt or by the crankshaft. Check the
entire engine compartment for loose tools or parts.
• Ignition timing is set accurately.
To avoid galling, the engine should start right away.
Avoid a long grind on the starter and over cranking the
engine before firing. Low oil pressure could damage
camshaft and other components.
7) When the engine fires, immediately rev it to 1800-2400
rpm. Do not idle the engine for the first 20 minutes. Much
of the oil for lubrication and cooling the camshaft comes
from crankshaft splash. Below 1800 rpm, turbulence is
probably not enough to lubricate the cam fully. The
engine may be run on the road or in the shop, but the
shop is best. If adjustments are required during the first
20 minutes, shut the engine off.
8) Vary rpm frequently during this initial break-in period to
change oiling within the engine.
9) After completing the break-in period, change the
engine oil and filter. Regularly change engine oil and filter
and maintain proper valve lash adjustment on solid
lifter engines.
Following these steps will extend the trouble-free life of
your cam and assure you of an engine that delivers the
maximum possible performance.

The Moly platelets that make up the protective layers on your engine surfaces slide across one another very easily. Instead of metal rubbing against metal, you have Moly platelets moving across one another protecting and lubricating the metal engine parts.

MOLY adds a great deal of lubrication to sliding metal surfaces , as it embeds in the micro fissures in the metallic surface's

if you were likely to be building and breaking in several engines Id suggest
purchase of lower 1.3:1 rockers for those cams break-in procedures.
this of course would not change the seat loads but it would significantly reduce the over the cam lobe nose pressure loads

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-90069/overview/make/chevrolet

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1004/overview/make/chevrolet

read ....don,t ignore the links

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/sucp-0202-rocker-arm-ratio/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...lifter-to-increase-oil-flow.11152/#post-49968

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/magnets.120/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/break-in-oil-quality-tested.11145/#post-52505

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ear-articles-you-need-to-read.282/#post-52017