we all are forced to work with a realistic budget, but at times I see guys plan and select parts not so much working too build for the ideal,combo or to build what they really want, but so that they can speed up the process or get SOMETHING RUNNING.........
now theres always something to be said for having a running car vs a bunch of parts cluttering up the garage for a few years,
but WHAT WILL YOU ACCOMPLISH if you BUILD SOMETHING YOUR NOT PROUD TO OWN,
or a rapidly assembled mix of parts you got cheaply that results in a car that runs like crap???
set yourself a goal, make a detailed list of parts and start building something you really want to own once its complete , and if you want a SOHC FORD, a 426 hemi or a boss 429 don,t stick a buick 350 v8 in it just because your friend got you a great deal on the engine
I think that like many guys who were interested in faster cars ,I was like most of you and many of us learned a great deal from older more experienced friends, and we learned a great deal by watching but even more by helping and doing our own work,on our own cars!
I well remember helping on my first valve job, clutch replacement and cam swap, and now look back and shudder, just thinking of the near endless list of mistakes we made thru pure ignorance.
:roll: theres no question that an older well establish machine shop can get you good prices and provide very helpful guidance at times, the problem is that many machine shops, are owned and run by guys who are more interested in making the most potential profits for the least possible work, rather than helping to build the best possible engine for the lowest cost!
finding a honest reliable,and dependable, machine shop willing to guide and teach you, and do the work at reasonable prices in a reasonably quick time frame, is from what Ive seen a rare commodity lately, finding one that does top quality work and completes it on the date and at the price you agreed too even rarer!
SOME of the The Older machine shops, both, knew how to build durable engines that made impressive power and were willing to help educate you on why things should be done a certain way when there were few or no off the shelf aftermarket parts, and thinking thru what you were doing and what needed to be modified to help increase power or durability was key to success.
when I was 19-20 years old, we thought nothing about clearances , , most of us tended to read thru magazine articles and assume they were telling you everything you needed to know ,so you could duplicate thier results, if we saw a Z28 off road cam,that made 45 extra HP , well it was designed to fit a SBC engine! we bought it along with a new set of lifters and just swapped it in, figuring it was instantly worth the listed 45hp the fact that the stock valve train was still installed or the cars compression ratio or rear gearing was a total mis-match and the heads they used were extensively ported (that was never mentioned in the article of course)never dawned on us back then!
factors like
spring bind?
proper clearances?
bearing crush?
bore surface?
hone plates?
multi angle valve jobs?
ring end gaps?
port flow rates?
plenum and runner design?
header design and exhaust back pressure!
at that point that was mostly a totally unknown list of concepts, but thru expensive trial and error we learned WHY and HOW things worked
(and what USUALLY caused EXPENSIVE REBUILDS)
heres some useful related info, that may prevent you from going thru the same expensive learning curve!
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Shop/Street-Rod-Wheel-Hub-Caps/15.html
If your looking for parts these guys generally have that type of stuff
then theres always the reference lists
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-at-the-circle-track-suppliers-helps.10978/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sfi-tested-parts-sources.3011/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...art-number-reference-sources.7670/#post-26041
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-shop-with-reasonable-prices.4566/#post-12172
youll want to take the time to do the math and compare components, lets for a second assume your,debating these two heads,
if you compare the 195cc vs 210cc AFR heads, all the way
theres a significant improvement in flow and a negligible decrease in port flow speed
theres always a compromise made between cost and potential power,
and obviously you want to match components to the intended power and rpm range,
but having seen a bunch of 383 builds use both AFR heads,
I think the 210cc choice here, is a no brainer if you can afford the price.
heres a chart FROM THE BOOK,HOW TO BUILD BIG-INCH CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS with some common cross sectional port sizes
(measured at the smallest part of the ports)
...........................sq inches........port cc
edelbrock performer rpm ....1.43.............170
vortec......................1.66.............170
tfs195......................1.93.............195
afr 180.....................1.93.............180
afr 195.....................1.98.............195
afr 210.....................2.05.............210
dart pro 200................2.06.............200
dart pro 215................2.14.............215
brodix track 1 .............2.30.............221
dart pro 1 230..............2.40.............230
edelbrock 23 high port .....2.53.............238
edelbrock 18 deg............2.71.............266
tfs 18 deg..................2.80.............250
Potential HP based on Airflow (Hot Rod, Jun '99, p74):
Airflow at 28" of water x 0.257 x number of cylinders = potential HP
or required airflow based on HP:
HP / 0.257 / cylinders = required airflow
if we compare the head air flow rates between a 195cc and 210cc head on a 383-406 SBC and assuming a decent roller cam with the lift and duration,required, and intake that allows the heads to flow at their full potential,
195cc Street Head Flow Chart
.200 .300 .400 .500 .550
Int 146 201 247 275 280
Exh 119 166 197 213 218
210cc Race Ready Head Flow Chart
.200 .300 .400 .500 .550 .600 .650
Int 145 199 255 292 301 309 311
Exh 110 158 192 210 214 220 222
if you compare peak intake rated flow at .550 lift
280 cfm vs 301 cfm (about a 9% increase) youll see why
thats in theory potentially a 43 hp gain
Ive watched the results, of the engine masters competition , with interest every year, and its rather obvious that this is basically a contest to see who can produce the best power in the hopes of greatly increasing bussiness traffic thru the shops front door, so these guys throw a TON of MONEY and EFFORT and MACHINE WORK into these engines as an advertizing tool. I doubt 90% of the customers can afford these SHOW PIECE ENGINE PLATFORMS and MOST would be SHOCKED at the COSTS
Ive got a good deal of respect for John Kasse and his new clone version of the Boss 429 stoked to 500+ cubes, but Id bet that engine costs WELL north of $30K if you want one built
http://www.jonkaaseracingengines.com/co ... gines.html
example
lets say what you really want TO INSTALL, BUY OR to build a IS killer big block engine for your car, your NOT really satisfied with a 500hp crate engine, you want some bragging rights, AND AT least A 540-572 DISPLACEMENT AND 650-750HP!
http://www.theengineshop.com/prods_pages/108000.htm
http://ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html
http://www.converter.com/vigilante.htm
http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/540_810.asp
a quick look shows your in the $10,000 range
so you start thinking, I know where I can find a
454 4 bolt block for $500, Ill build a 496 stroker....(but do I really need a DART block at 600HP?)
Ok lets look at that, keep in mind you want no less than 600HP
block $500-$2000
rotating assembly, damper flywheel,clutch, bell housing $2000-$3000
brodix or AFR heads, valve covers, port work, $2500-$3100
hydrolic roller cam & hydrolic roller lifters,pushrods, rockers ETC, $1200-$1800
oil system $350-$600
intake , port work,$300-$1500
machine work balancing gaskets etc, $1200
carb(s), $400-$970
hell, it won,t take much to be at $8600-$11,000 PLUS so it quickly becomes obvious that you are NOT saving a bunch building a 496 vs BUYING a 540bbc, and it is potentially pretty much wasted effort if your real goal is a solid 600HP!
what IM getting at here is that PLANING your goals and the path to reach them takes some thought and research, and one of the worst things you can do jump into it with a few parts and start building and spending your hard earned cash without thinking it thru carefully
keep in mind a small block may cost slightly less but everything still applies
I know so many guys with $10,000-$15,000 invested in 468-496bbc engines, engines that won,t come NEAR being what they could have built or bought if they had PLANNED it carefully
price it out yourself...
http://www.flatlanderracing.com/home.html
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5518&p=16612#p16612
http://www.summitracing.com/
http://www.dirttrackthunder.com/
http://www.dougherbert.com/
"How come so many guys finally finish their dream cars, then sell it a few months later? "
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10408&p=43169#p43169
because they realize that all the time and work and money resulted in a car THAT was and never will be EXACTLY what they envisioned or wanted....
you wanted a 632 BBC powered chevelle and theres a 496bbc powered car in the garage and your subconcious mind, says get that %$%^^& out of here I failed to reach my goal,and don,t want to be reminded of it!
you can,t cheat the guy you see while shaving in your mirror in the morning and expect to be happy, once you set a goal, acheive anything less and youll be less than satisfied with the results
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOUR FAMILY comes FIRST
but that doesn,t mean you can,t have toys or projects, your entitled too (some sanity and entertainment, stress relief)
set aside a small amount you can afford, for your project in a seperate account or coffee can in the garage,EVERY WEEK, THATS THE SECRET,HAVE a set goal, a parts list, supliers and costs and check off each component as you get it! and build your car! consider that $10, or $50 you can easily afford each week as previously SPENT before you get crazy. your project will eventually get built, look Im retired and have been doing the current accumulation of parts and research,on my BBC corvette swap for over 4 years now, IT will get done! but Im on a budget on a pension, ant good things take time, (getting side tracked on my dream garage project ,didn,t help either)but, hey Im human, I make less than ideal moves too!, but the garage was built KNOWING that ID get back MORE than every dime I spent if I ever sell the property
look this whole thread is basically based on the fact that 90% plus of the guys do it the way you guys that do alittle at a time as the budget allows, describe (add a bit at a time,as you can afford it, learn as you stumble thru)
and WASTE a HUGE amount of money in the process, IM not saying thats wrong! Im just pointing out that SMARTER APPROACH,is thru doing alot of research,planing and thinking BEFORE spending money, that will result in far less expence and a better final product, THE real secret here is to LEARN while HELPING & WORKING ON EVERYONE ELSEs car, WATCHING THE MORE EXPERIANCED GUYS, and LEARNING THRU THIER MISTAKES AT THIER EXPENCE, then building a killer combo from what youve learned while helping a whole lot of other guys while you & they, LEARN what works and whats wasted effort.
I take a good deal of time here, HOPEING to bring you guys up to speed, and learning from the more experianced guys while IM HERE, so take advantage of the mistakes and what I and the other more experianced guys have learned the hard expensive way......theres lots of guys that know more than I do and a whole lot that know less, but as a group we can do a far better job than any one guy could hope to do!
remember when you were 2 years old and mom said don,t stick bobby pins in the ellectric outlets.....there was a reason then, and theres a reason for what Im saying too!
now theres always something to be said for having a running car vs a bunch of parts cluttering up the garage for a few years,
but WHAT WILL YOU ACCOMPLISH if you BUILD SOMETHING YOUR NOT PROUD TO OWN,
or a rapidly assembled mix of parts you got cheaply that results in a car that runs like crap???
set yourself a goal, make a detailed list of parts and start building something you really want to own once its complete , and if you want a SOHC FORD, a 426 hemi or a boss 429 don,t stick a buick 350 v8 in it just because your friend got you a great deal on the engine
I think that like many guys who were interested in faster cars ,I was like most of you and many of us learned a great deal from older more experienced friends, and we learned a great deal by watching but even more by helping and doing our own work,on our own cars!
I well remember helping on my first valve job, clutch replacement and cam swap, and now look back and shudder, just thinking of the near endless list of mistakes we made thru pure ignorance.
:roll: theres no question that an older well establish machine shop can get you good prices and provide very helpful guidance at times, the problem is that many machine shops, are owned and run by guys who are more interested in making the most potential profits for the least possible work, rather than helping to build the best possible engine for the lowest cost!finding a honest reliable,and dependable, machine shop willing to guide and teach you, and do the work at reasonable prices in a reasonably quick time frame, is from what Ive seen a rare commodity lately, finding one that does top quality work and completes it on the date and at the price you agreed too even rarer!
SOME of the The Older machine shops, both, knew how to build durable engines that made impressive power and were willing to help educate you on why things should be done a certain way when there were few or no off the shelf aftermarket parts, and thinking thru what you were doing and what needed to be modified to help increase power or durability was key to success.
when I was 19-20 years old, we thought nothing about clearances ,
, most of us tended to read thru magazine articles and assume they were telling you everything you needed to know ,so you could duplicate thier results, if we saw a Z28 off road cam,that made 45 extra HP , well it was designed to fit a SBC engine! we bought it along with a new set of lifters and just swapped it in, figuring it was instantly worth the listed 45hp the fact that the stock valve train was still installed or the cars compression ratio or rear gearing was a total mis-match and the heads they used were extensively ported (that was never mentioned in the article of course)never dawned on us back then!factors like
spring bind?
proper clearances?
bearing crush?
bore surface?
hone plates?
multi angle valve jobs?
ring end gaps?
port flow rates?
plenum and runner design?
header design and exhaust back pressure!
at that point that was mostly a totally unknown list of concepts, but thru expensive trial and error we learned WHY and HOW things worked
(and what USUALLY caused EXPENSIVE REBUILDS)
heres some useful related info, that may prevent you from going thru the same expensive learning curve!
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/
http://www.speedwaymotors.com/Shop/Street-Rod-Wheel-Hub-Caps/15.html
If your looking for parts these guys generally have that type of stuff
then theres always the reference lists
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-at-the-circle-track-suppliers-helps.10978/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sfi-tested-parts-sources.3011/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...art-number-reference-sources.7670/#post-26041
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-shop-with-reasonable-prices.4566/#post-12172
youll want to take the time to do the math and compare components, lets for a second assume your,debating these two heads,
if you compare the 195cc vs 210cc AFR heads, all the way
theres a significant improvement in flow and a negligible decrease in port flow speed
theres always a compromise made between cost and potential power,
and obviously you want to match components to the intended power and rpm range,
but having seen a bunch of 383 builds use both AFR heads,
I think the 210cc choice here, is a no brainer if you can afford the price.
heres a chart FROM THE BOOK,HOW TO BUILD BIG-INCH CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS with some common cross sectional port sizes
(measured at the smallest part of the ports)
...........................sq inches........port cc
edelbrock performer rpm ....1.43.............170
vortec......................1.66.............170
tfs195......................1.93.............195
afr 180.....................1.93.............180
afr 195.....................1.98.............195
afr 210.....................2.05.............210
dart pro 200................2.06.............200
dart pro 215................2.14.............215
brodix track 1 .............2.30.............221
dart pro 1 230..............2.40.............230
edelbrock 23 high port .....2.53.............238
edelbrock 18 deg............2.71.............266
tfs 18 deg..................2.80.............250
Potential HP based on Airflow (Hot Rod, Jun '99, p74):
Airflow at 28" of water x 0.257 x number of cylinders = potential HP
or required airflow based on HP:
HP / 0.257 / cylinders = required airflow
if we compare the head air flow rates between a 195cc and 210cc head on a 383-406 SBC and assuming a decent roller cam with the lift and duration,required, and intake that allows the heads to flow at their full potential,
195cc Street Head Flow Chart
.200 .300 .400 .500 .550
Int 146 201 247 275 280
Exh 119 166 197 213 218
210cc Race Ready Head Flow Chart
.200 .300 .400 .500 .550 .600 .650
Int 145 199 255 292 301 309 311
Exh 110 158 192 210 214 220 222
if you compare peak intake rated flow at .550 lift
280 cfm vs 301 cfm (about a 9% increase) youll see why
thats in theory potentially a 43 hp gain
Ive watched the results, of the engine masters competition , with interest every year, and its rather obvious that this is basically a contest to see who can produce the best power in the hopes of greatly increasing bussiness traffic thru the shops front door, so these guys throw a TON of MONEY and EFFORT and MACHINE WORK into these engines as an advertizing tool. I doubt 90% of the customers can afford these SHOW PIECE ENGINE PLATFORMS and MOST would be SHOCKED at the COSTS
Ive got a good deal of respect for John Kasse and his new clone version of the Boss 429 stoked to 500+ cubes, but Id bet that engine costs WELL north of $30K if you want one built
example
lets say what you really want TO INSTALL, BUY OR to build a IS killer big block engine for your car, your NOT really satisfied with a 500hp crate engine, you want some bragging rights, AND AT least A 540-572 DISPLACEMENT AND 650-750HP!
http://www.theengineshop.com/prods_pages/108000.htm
http://ohiocrank.com/enginekits.html
http://www.converter.com/vigilante.htm
http://www.shafiroff.com/sportsman/540_810.asp
a quick look shows your in the $10,000 range
so you start thinking, I know where I can find a
454 4 bolt block for $500, Ill build a 496 stroker....(but do I really need a DART block at 600HP?)
Ok lets look at that, keep in mind you want no less than 600HP
block $500-$2000
rotating assembly, damper flywheel,clutch, bell housing $2000-$3000
brodix or AFR heads, valve covers, port work, $2500-$3100
hydrolic roller cam & hydrolic roller lifters,pushrods, rockers ETC, $1200-$1800
oil system $350-$600
intake , port work,$300-$1500
machine work balancing gaskets etc, $1200
carb(s), $400-$970
hell, it won,t take much to be at $8600-$11,000 PLUS so it quickly becomes obvious that you are NOT saving a bunch building a 496 vs BUYING a 540bbc, and it is potentially pretty much wasted effort if your real goal is a solid 600HP!
what IM getting at here is that PLANING your goals and the path to reach them takes some thought and research, and one of the worst things you can do jump into it with a few parts and start building and spending your hard earned cash without thinking it thru carefully
keep in mind a small block may cost slightly less but everything still applies
I know so many guys with $10,000-$15,000 invested in 468-496bbc engines, engines that won,t come NEAR being what they could have built or bought if they had PLANNED it carefully
price it out yourself...
http://www.flatlanderracing.com/home.html
http://www.jegs.com/webapp/wcs/stor...splay?langId=-1&storeId=10001&catalogId=10002
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5518&p=16612#p16612
http://www.summitracing.com/
http://www.dirttrackthunder.com/
http://www.dougherbert.com/
"How come so many guys finally finish their dream cars, then sell it a few months later? "
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=10408&p=43169#p43169
because they realize that all the time and work and money resulted in a car THAT was and never will be EXACTLY what they envisioned or wanted....
you wanted a 632 BBC powered chevelle and theres a 496bbc powered car in the garage and your subconcious mind, says get that %$%^^& out of here I failed to reach my goal,and don,t want to be reminded of it!
you can,t cheat the guy you see while shaving in your mirror in the morning and expect to be happy, once you set a goal, acheive anything less and youll be less than satisfied with the results
Posted: Tue Feb 06, 2007 9:56 pm Post subject:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
YOUR FAMILY comes FIRST
but that doesn,t mean you can,t have toys or projects, your entitled too (some sanity and entertainment, stress relief)
set aside a small amount you can afford, for your project in a seperate account or coffee can in the garage,EVERY WEEK, THATS THE SECRET,HAVE a set goal, a parts list, supliers and costs and check off each component as you get it! and build your car! consider that $10, or $50 you can easily afford each week as previously SPENT before you get crazy. your project will eventually get built, look Im retired and have been doing the current accumulation of parts and research,on my BBC corvette swap for over 4 years now, IT will get done! but Im on a budget on a pension, ant good things take time, (getting side tracked on my dream garage project ,didn,t help either)but, hey Im human, I make less than ideal moves too!, but the garage was built KNOWING that ID get back MORE than every dime I spent if I ever sell the property
look this whole thread is basically based on the fact that 90% plus of the guys do it the way you guys that do alittle at a time as the budget allows, describe (add a bit at a time,as you can afford it, learn as you stumble thru)
and WASTE a HUGE amount of money in the process, IM not saying thats wrong! Im just pointing out that SMARTER APPROACH,is thru doing alot of research,planing and thinking BEFORE spending money, that will result in far less expence and a better final product, THE real secret here is to LEARN while HELPING & WORKING ON EVERYONE ELSEs car, WATCHING THE MORE EXPERIANCED GUYS, and LEARNING THRU THIER MISTAKES AT THIER EXPENCE, then building a killer combo from what youve learned while helping a whole lot of other guys while you & they, LEARN what works and whats wasted effort.
I take a good deal of time here, HOPEING to bring you guys up to speed, and learning from the more experianced guys while IM HERE, so take advantage of the mistakes and what I and the other more experianced guys have learned the hard expensive way......theres lots of guys that know more than I do and a whole lot that know less, but as a group we can do a far better job than any one guy could hope to do!
remember when you were 2 years old and mom said don,t stick bobby pins in the ellectric outlets.....there was a reason then, and theres a reason for what Im saying too!
Last edited by a moderator:
