Carb intake manifold & engine flow rates.

Loves302Chevy

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
Would you have any flow info on a Weiand #8000 EGR inake manifold and other similar carb intakes? And also a formula to calculate an engine's flow requirements. Specifically, I'm wondering if this intake would be a restriction for a 334 SBC turning 6000 rpm. I planned on using an Edelbrock Performer RPM QJet #7104, but it would require a taller hood. This intake, as compared to the stock aluminum Quadrajet, moves the carb mounting back toward the distributor by about 1/4" (#2101 Performer and Weiand #8004 also). This causes the 305 HO dual snorkel air cleaner lid to be right up against the #1 and #8 spark plug boots on the HEI distributor, causing the spark to arc out. I am using an MSD 6A ignition box. I'd rather not convert a point type distributor. Is there a smaller diameter distributor with magnetic pickup and vacuum advance that I can use to trigger the MSD? It does not need to have its own module. The MSD distributor would be overkill for this engine. I have no extra height to fit in a carb adapter/spacer. Mike.
 
The MSD Distributor is a pretty good unit Mike.
Available with Vacuum advance can & without.
Early versions had GM Points style cap .
Later current versions have a HEI style small cap tower wire connections.
Mallory makes several High quality Magnetic & Optical pickup small cap distributors.
Vintage Accel distributors like the BEI Are very well made.
Hard to find. Fully rollerized lower bearing & upper ball bearing units.
 
i would run a non HEI msd pro billet dizzy in that, it has the mos agressive timing curve of any of the distributors ive ever used. as fr the q jets, they make a cool distinctive sound but if youre gonna change intakes may as well use a regular old holley double pumper on there, probably pick up some throttle response if its tuned right. a quick way out of your arcing issue is to wrap the boots for the #1 and #8 right there on top of the distributor also. insulate them from the intake box
 
you might find these threads below useful
most of the current low rise 4 barrel carb. intakes designed for street use fall in the 240cfm-260cfm range in stock out of the box form, the better single plane, intakes tend to run 20cfm or so higher, either style can be ported to increase the flow rates.
keep in mind the proper cam being selected and with matched headers and a low restriction exhaust can significantly increase effective cylinder scavenging, resulting in higher intake flow efficiency. Id also point out that my experience has been that the vast majority of people can,t read spark plugs to see whats going on during the combustion process, many have no idea how to customize an ignition advance curve or tune a carburetor, or properly regulate fuel pressure to save their butt!
Even fewer can clean up an intake plenum or port runners even marginally well.
Id also point out that a properly tuned dual quad intake can provide remarkable results especially the tunnel ram and cross ram designs , but theres so few people with the required skills or desire to learn the old school tuning skills that id bet 80% of the dual quad setups are far from ideally tuned so they got a less than favorable reputation. most of the younger guys think you tune a car with a lap top computer
carefully done, port work on the intake runners and plenum can produce significant flow rate improvements
fordman1&2.jpg


http://gottafishcarburetors.com/CFM Formula.html

http://wallaceracing.com/intakecfm.php

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=444

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=623&p=834&hilit=camaro+crossram#p834

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5175&p=25996&hilit=tunnelram#p25996
CALCULATORS
http://www.wallaceracing.com/calcafhp.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/calchpaf.php

http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html

http://horsepowercalculators.net/intake ... old-design

http://www.4secondsflat.com/Carburetor Sizing and Series Charts.htm

http://www.wallaceracing.com/intakecfm.php

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=58

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=624

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4930

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5537&p=16750&hilit=1206+1207#p16750

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=8485

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=462&p=11902&hilit=1206+1207#p11902

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1038

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5229

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4362

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=5378
 
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Aftermarket High Rise Fiberglass Hoods are affordable Mike as long as you don't own a Corvette.
GLASSTECK Makes them for 3 rd Gen Fiberbird & Camaro.
Bolt onto the stock hinges. Gelcoated nice. Pain't easy.
Nice fitment. Strong too. About $350.
Up to 5" inch rise hoods made.
Use a Highrise Dual or single plane intake & carburator of your choice then.
Unless you have the Factory Pontiac Ram Air setup or Shaker Hoodscoop that is functional, stock hood is not worth keeping in my opinion .
 
Tarlak333 said:
That was the cam I was originally looking at, see top of thread. However my Eddy 600cfm carb can only support a 383ci motor up to 5500rpm. And I need something a bit more "streetable" that's why I'm trying to maximize hp & torque in the 1500-5500rpm range.

Thx,
a very common misconception
think about that a second, 4 barrel carberators flow has been rated at a vacuum level of 1.5" of mercury, and carbs are rated DRY FLOW ... add fuel and you loose about 15% in air flow with gas ansd about 40% more or about 22% with alcohol due to the greater volume of fuel, BUT a carburetor will increase air flow as the vacuum in the intake plenum rating or "DRAW" under the cab. or vacuum is increased.
http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/cl-0312-choosing-carburetor/
the carb won,t stop flowing, as the draw or vacuum increases, it will simply become slightly more restrictive as the demand vacuum increases.
this is easily something calculate, if you know the plenum vacuum readings
http://users.erols.com/srweiss/calcdchg.htm

as a general rule a 600 carb will usually work fine on a 383 sbc,
but yes it will produce less PEAK power than a properly tuned 750 cfm carb usually will.
and yeah the heads effective flow ,
intake manifold design,
cam timing,
compression ratio
and efficiency of the headers will effect the results
"Standard test vacuum was 1-1/2 inches of mercury for 4 barrel carburetors and 3 inches of mercury “Vacuum” for 1 barrel and 2 barrel carburetors. This was reasonable as it was about what a passenger car would develop. Of course, for the numbers to mean anything, tests would have to be run at a certain temperature and barometric pressure. Or be corrected to standard temperature and pressure. If not otherwise stated, ratings in cubic feet per minute are at standard temperature and pressure."
 
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"87vette81big, post: 40384, member: 13190" Aftermarket High Rise Fiberglass Hoods are affordable Mike as long as you don't own a Corvette.

GLASSTECK Makes them for 3 rd Gen Fiberbird & Camaro.
Bolt onto the stock hinges. Gelcoated nice. Pain't easy.
Nice fitment. Strong too. About $350.
Up to 5" inch rise hoods made.
Use a Highrise Dual or single plane intake & carburator of your choice then.
Unless you have the Factory Pontiac Ram Air setup or Shaker Hoodscoop that is functional, stock hood is not worth keeping in my opinion .

I checked Glasstek's site. They have hoods for Camaros, but not for an 84 TransAm. Thanks anyway. Mike.
It's expensive, but I'm considering this:
3rd gen ws6 vfn.jpg
 
Tarlak333 said:
....

Really confused now, on what exactly you were trying to get across to me. :confused:

Thx,

If it was my car and I already had a decent 600 cfm carb that was fully functional, Id be using that until I got the engine installed and the bugs tuned out and not spend much time or effort worrying about the slight loss in peak power, now AFTER its up and running correctly if you still want to find and install a good vacuum secondary carb, well then, jump on it, but keep that 600 cfm carb handy.

ID also point out youll have a few valid choices

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/dem-1904/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hly-0-3310c
 
"87vette81big, post: 40384, member: 13190" Aftermarket High Rise Fiberglass Hoods are affordable Mike as long as you don't own a Corvette.

GLASSTECK Makes them for 3 rd Gen Fiberbird & Camaro.
Bolt onto the stock hinges. Gelcoated nice. Pain't easy.
Nice fitment. Strong too. About $350.
Up to 5" inch rise hoods made.
Use a Highrise Dual or single plane intake & carburator of your choice then.
Unless you have the Factory Pontiac Ram Air setup or Shaker Hoodscoop that is functional, stock hood is not worth keeping in my opinion .

I checked Glasstek's site. They have hoods for Camaros, but not for an 84 TransAm. Thanks anyway. Mike.
It's expensive, but I'm considering this:
View attachment 5736
They used to make Glasstek fiberglass hoods for 1982-93 3rd Gen Trans Ams.
A friend had a 1982 Firebird.
2.5 liter Iron Duke 4cyl car original.
He installed a ZZ350 crate engine. The original . Nitrous kit.
5 " inch Hardwood Hood. Got into 11's on spray.
I have seen Carbon Fiber Hardwood 3rd gen Bird Hoods too.
Call them.
Since I am in IL Harwood is #1 choice.
Made right in Chicago land.
 
http://www.enginebasics.com/Advanced Engine Tuning/Intake Runner Length.html
The intake system on a four-stroke car engine has one main goal, to get as much air-fuel mixture into the cylinder as possible. One way to help the intake is bytuningthe lengths of the pipes.

When the intake valve is open on the engine, air is being sucked into the engine, so the air in the intake runner is moving rapidly toward the cylinder. When the intake valve closes suddenly, this air slams to a stop and stacks up on itself, forming an area of high pressure. This high-pressure wave makes its way up the intake runner away from the cylinder. When it reaches the end of the intake runner, where the runner connects to theintake manifold, the pressure wave bounces back down the intake runner.

If the intake runner is just the right length, that pressure wave will arrive back at the intake valve just as it opens for the next cycle. This extra pressure helps cram moreair-fuel mixinto the cylinder -- effectively acting like aturbocharger. The problem with this technique is that it only provides a benefit in a fairly narrow speed range. The pressure wave travels at the speed of sound (which depends on the density of the air) down the intake runner. The speed will vary a little bit depending on the temperature of the air and the speed it is moving, but a good guess for the speed of sound would be 1,300 feet per second (fps). Let's try to get an idea how long the intake runner would have to be to take advantage of this effect.

Let's say the engine is running at 5,000 rpm. The intake valve opens once every two revolutions (720 degrees), but let's say they stay open for 250 degrees. That means that there are 470 degrees between when the intake valve closes and when it opens again. At 5,000 rpm it will take the engine 0.012 seconds to turn one revolution, and 470 degrees is about 1.31 revolutions, so it takes 0.0156 seconds between when the valve closes and when it opens again. At 1,300 fps multiplied by 0.0156 seconds, the pressure wave would travel about 20 feet. But, since must go up the intake runner and then come back, the intake runner would only have to be half this length or about 10 feet.

Two things become apparent after doing this calculation:

1. The tuning of the intake runner will only have an effect in a fairly narrow RPM range. If we redo the calculation at 3,000 rpm, the length calculated would be completely different.

2. Ten feet is too long. You can't fit pipes that long under the hood of a car very easily. There is not too much that can be done about the first problem.

A tuned intake has its main benefit in a very narrow speed range. But there is a way to shorten the intake runners and still get some benefit from the pressure wave. If we shorten the intake runner length by a factor of four, making it 2.5 feet, the pressure wave will travel up and down the pipe four times before the intake valve opens again. But it still arrives at the valve at the right time.

There are a lot of intricacies and tricks to intake systems. For instance, it is beneficial to have the intake air moving as fast as possible into the cylinders. This increases theturbulenceand mixes the fuel with the air better. One way to increase the air velocity is to use a smaller diameter intake runner. Since roughly the same volume of air enters the cylinder each cycle, if you pump that air through a smaller diameter pipe it will have to go faster.

The downside to using smaller diameter intake runners is that at high engine speeds when lots of air is going through the pipes, the restriction from the smaller diameter may inhibit airflow. So for the large airflows at higher speeds it is better to have large diameter pipes. Some car makers attempt to get the best of both worlds by using dual intake runners for each cylinder -- one with a small diameter and one with a large diameter. They use a butterfly valve to close off the large diameter runner at lower engine speeds where the narrow runner can help performance. Then the valve opens up at higher engine speeds to reduce the intake restriction, increasing the top end power output.

as a general rule you'll find single plane intakes on a SBC generally work best on engine combos with at least a 245 duration cam at .050 lift and with 10.7:1 or higher compression and solid lifter cams that can operate efficiently in the 5500rpm-7000rpm PLUS power band and geared to operate in that same 5500rpm-7000rpm PLUS power band most of the time.
this also requires a short block assembly designed to operate in that upper rpm band, now as the engine displacement is increased, like in the larger displacement BBC engines port and runner air flow speeds will also increase so the effect is that a larger BBC engine can use more, or longer cam duration at a given rpm band, due to its larger cylinder volume to valve curtain area requiring more time, for effective cylinder fill and scavenging .



vgd4.jpg

porting+valve_area.jpg

thus a 2.02 valve sbc reaches max flow near .505 lift
thus a 2.19 valve BBC reaches max flow near .5475 lift

Calculating the valve curtain area
The following equation mathematically defines the available flow area for any given valve diameter and lift value:
Area = valve diameter x 0.98 x 3.14 x valve lift
Where 3.14 = pi (π)

For a typical 2.02-inch intake valve at .500-inch lift, it calculates as follows:
Area = 2.02 x 0.98 x 3.14 x 0.500 = 3.107 square inches



For a typical 2.19-inch intake valve at .550-inch lift, it calculates as follows:

Area = 2.19 x 0.98 x 3.14 x 0.550 = 3.714 square inches

a typical 383 sbc with that .500 lift cam, has 47.875 cubic inches of volume in a single cylinder, divide that by the curtain area of 3.107 and you get 15 cubic inches of cylinder volume for each square inch of valve curtain


a typical 496 BBC with that .550 lift cam, has 62 cubic inches of volume in a single cylinder, divide that by the curtain area of 3.714 and you get 16.69 cubic inches of cylinder volume for each square inch of valve curtain, or about 11% less available air flow even with the larger valve and higher lift cam, to compensate use of a tighter LCA is frequently used to allow a longer, and more effective cylinder scavenging time frame in the big block combo

LSAChart01.jpg

116_0403_basic_10_z.jpg
 
Oops Grumpy.
You posted double today.

I favor the Big Block Route .
As you do.
This thread also covers one of my Favorite Engine Topics .
Volumetric Efficiency .
But we don't usually call it that here.
100-140 % VE Is the goal. Can match what Twin Turbo Charging can do with N/A power. Or come close.
 
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