Copper head gaskets

R

racprops

Well-Known Member
Gentlemen,

An update on Brass head gaskets: They are NOT torque once and forget them.

They require retorqueing: after a solid heat cycle you need to brake lose and retorque each head bolt (one at a time) in the correct torqueing pattern.

As my engine is going into a G20 Van it is nearly impossible to do a retorqe.

I have had to use SCE Cylinder Head Gasket M110628; MLS Spartan .028" x 4.067" for Chevy SBC for my engine as they are true Torque once and forget them.

This new information was provided by SCE tech support; saying, failing to retorque I would be risking water or compression leaks.

This was also supported by my talking with Milodon at milodon.com who said they stopped using and selling copper head gaskets a decade ago, and he told me I needed to add RTV sealer to every water passive hole in the block and the heads or have water leaking into the combustion chambers or vice versa.

Damn I nearly made one of those major engine killing mistakes I have had nightmares over.

I was worried about scotch bright scrubbing pads the gaskets to remove all Spray Copper sealant…and OMG learned I nearly ran my engine with doomed to fail Copper Gaskets.


Rich
 
not so fast with the gloom & doom!
I've personally built Dozens of engine's over the last 30 plus years using solid copper head gaskets and as far as I've heard from the owners and as far as I've experienced there have been zero failures.
now, obviously I have no control over owners of those engines RE-TORQUING head bolts or failing to do so,
but I've yet to hear of a failed head gasket,
obviously make your own choices, but don't assume your doomed just because you selected copper head gaskets,
hundreds of the engines members built are functioning decades after being built

What Head Gasket??

So as per strong suggestions I was going to be using a set of .015 FelPro Steel head gaskets 1094 with brush on Sealing Compound-RTV 5920 Copper Silicone Gasket Maker Loctite 37466. These head gaskets are NOT Permanent Torque gaskets and it is STRONGLY suggested to retorque after a hot cycle...
garage.grumpysperformance.com

SBC Head Gasket choice.

In a previous life the block was 0 decked then stroked to 383 and now the pistons sit out of the hole .015in, bore is 4.040in. Looking at readily available stock. Block wasn't particularly finished for MLS, heads Alum afr. Cometic isn't a choice. Daily driver. GMPP is the tightest at 4.100in...
garage.grumpysperformance.com



http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/head-gasket-related.1859/#post-50617

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/head-gasket.10085/#post-39429

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ad-gasket-for-aluminum-heads.4403/#post-26317

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...asket-bore-size-vs-bore-size.2681/#post-11603
 
Last edited:
In any thing other than a Van I would retorque the heads, but here I cannot.

And this is what the maker of these gaskets said. They are great IF you do one retorquing.

So better safe that sorry.

I felt I should share this info.

Rich
 
Last edited:
Never had a problem with the SCE copper head gaskets, I've had my heads off 3 times and reused them every time.
Like Grumpy has recommended to use the Permatex copper spray I have done the same.
 
Understood, BUT that is what SCE said, and I do not want to risk a gasket failure on a VAN that I cannot replace a head without pulling the engine so got SCE Gaskets that are true on time torque.

I felt I should share this news.

Rich
 
NO ISSUES ALL USEFUL INFO IN POSTS IS HELPFUL & WELCOME
but I just out of curiosity called a few guys I've built engines for that I could still locate,
and asked if ANY of them had ever had head gasket issues on the solid copper head gaskets.
now Id point out that I vastly prefer aftermarket aluminum heads and ARP head bolts
( mostly trickflow, profiler,brodix and AFR)
and installing the head gaskets as I explained with ANODES ,
if that has any effect, but no one I know has yet had issues ,
and I asked and several guys did NOT retorque head bolts.
one guys still running a 396 BBC I built from 1999
 
No problem, I guess a very few gaskets have failed and to be 100% sure they not say to retorque.

I do not want to risk it, I could be the one out of a thousand.

$100.00 for new gaskets were no problem and as the were .22 and the new ones .27 it will hardly be noticed and as the heads were milled lightly to insure flatness I figure a thicker gasket will get back where I belong.
 
No matter what you use, sounds like you need a engine test stand. This way you can check for water and oil leaks, torque the head bolts a 2nd time. and just generally make sure everything is OK. Setting the ignition timing and valve lash should be much easier

Use and engine dolly for your stand and a garden water hose for cooling to keep the costs down.

www.summitracing.com

Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing

Find Parts and Accessories engine dolly KEYWORD and get Free Shipping on Orders Over $109 at Summit Racing!
www.summitracing.com www.summitracing.com


.
 
Last edited:
I have a partly made stand.

Problem is my engine will be running a serpentine belt system and a TPI intake with all the nightmare of the electronic controls, PCM and 8 injectors plus a power sheering pump and A/C compressor.

When I thought would NEED a 1/2 a hour run time to break in a cam I was going to do a engine burn in..BY mounting a standard: u Barrel manifold, a AFB Carb, and 5 pound fuel pump, and standard water pump, a standard alternator to insure power to the battery during the start up and all running a standard V belt system and a tail pipe running a muffler.

I was going to use a Ford Crown Vic radiator with electric fan, and mount a full set of electric gauge so I can monitor oil pressure, water temp, and RPMs. All of the still needs mounting.

I even collected all this stuff to do it.

All this means mounting all the old stuff just for the test run and then ripping all of it off to then mounting the TPI manifold, the serpentine belt system mounting system, power steering pump, reverse running water pump, all the PCM sensors before installing into the van.

And the draining of all the water in the block, at this point I have a nice dry block with no mess water dropping out as we juggle it into the van, and which once in and hooked up I will be filling with nice clean new antifreeze.

And no mess to clean up in my back yard.

I feel all that is a messy way to go just to be able to retorque the head gaskets when I can buy a good thin set of torque once and forget them gaskets.

Granted it would be nice to preflight the engine, but I fear a down the road failure more than a start up one.

So like a Moon Shot I will fire it up and if it breaks..shoot it in its head and perhaps my own head.

Rich
 
Last edited:
This is legit


Been running SCE Pro-Copper head gaskets, trouble free, since the 80s. Two wet coats of the previously mentioned spray copper.

You didn't (or at least I didn't see) mention o-ing wires. If the block is o-ringed, how can water get into the combustion chamber? Or are you running the SCE ICS (Integral Combustion Seal)? I bought a set of the Titans, that look pretty interesting, but I haven't tried them yet. The Titans will also get spray copper.

I don't think you can run copper head gaskets, other than the ICS without o-rings.

Be advised that, with MLS gaskets, the deck surfaces require a specific surface roughness to seal. Please say you didn't go hog-wild with a Scotchbrite pad on a die grinder, it's very possible to kill the flatness of the deck surfaces.

I did try Cometic MLS gaskets. I was talked into trying Hylomar spray, but if I go the MLS route again, I would use spray copper.

I would definitely retorque MLS gaskets (my opinion).

I think, using the method described in Ben Alameda's video, gives you the best chance of success if you don't want to retorque.
 

engine test run stand

honestly, if you've got a decent welder and a tape measure and some time, to kill, this is a reasonably easy project , and it sure beats paying $2k http://mycorvetterestoration.com/side-projects/engine-test-stand.php#.VZXATPlViko...
garage.grumpysperformance.com
 
Thanks...I got the copper for its thickness (thin) and as you guys said torque once, the gaskets I ordered are just .05 thicker.

And saves a LOT of extra work.

Rich

Here is SCE instructions for the gaskets.

Note: Head gasket bore opening
should always be larger than the
cylinder bore opening. Image
depicts Gas Stopper design (MLS
GS) head gasket.
Installation Instructions
Features & Benefits:
• Enhanced sealing properties in high compression, forced induction and nitrous oxide
applications.
• Optimized load balancing on cylinder bore.
• Improved engine performance.
• Longer engine life.
Steps:
1. Thoroughly clean and degrease block and cylinder head sealing surfaces.
2. Inspect block and head sealing surfaces for:
a. Maximum warpage: .002” across shortest section.
b. Surface Finish Recommendation: 30-60 Ra (roughness average).
c. Gouging: Aluminum surfaces must be free of deep scratches, gouges, or depressions.
3. Chase engine block threads with a thread tap -threads must be clean for accurate torque readings.
Unclean threads may result in gasket failure.
4. Inspect new head gasket to insure no damage in shipping. Polymer sealant coating should be uniform
and devoid of scratches or scuffs.
5. Use care in handling; SCE Gaskets MLS Spartan and MLS Spartan with Gas Stopper have a proprietary
two-part sealant coating: second coating can be damaged by excess handling.
6. Use no sealant; additional sealant will negatively affect sealing at cylinder bores.
7. Install head gasket on block sealing surface. Important: make sure each head gasket is properly
positioned regarding coolant, oil pressure and oil drain passages.
8. Use new fasteners and lubricate (moly lube is preferred) threads, underside of bolt heads, nuts, and
upper side of washers.
9. Torque specifications and sequence; follow cylinder clock and fastener manufacturer recommendations.
Failure to do so may prevent fasteners from reaching correct preload leading to gasket failure.
10. Start engine and allow it to reach operating temperature. Check for engine leaks (fluid or vacuum). If
there is a leak, stop the engine, let it cool and find/fix cause of leak.
11. Re-Torque head bolts (engine cold) according to block manufacturer instructions; not required but
always suggested on racing engines.
MLS Spartan Gas Stopper (MLS GS) technology offers enhanced multilayer head gasket combustion sealing where required. A stainless-steel Gas Stopper layer is folded onto itself around the cylinder bore aperture to provide additional clamp load on the combustion seal for high cylinder pressure (power adder) applications

And yes they do say retorque but A) my engine is not a high performance racing engine and B) SCE said for my use torque once is fine.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
Back
Top