crazy intermitent no start condition

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
my old battery went dead from sitting without driving to many times and I replaced it with a new battery, it started up fine and ran great but the next day the car just clicked when the key was turned, surprising because, I tested the battery and it was fully charged........I had replace the pos battery cable at the same time as the battery as it looked slightly corroded,while, never noticing a slight difference in the bolt lengths, so I tightened the bolt to the battery side terminal and the car started easily, but the next day the same exact problem,yet it ran fine all day, again tightening the bolt on the side terminal seemed to be the cure, but it was already VERY tight and I didn,t want to strip the threads, and the cable itself while , seemingly solidly connected was not making a solid connection,.
the next day, the same problem, so I took off the battery terminal bolt and battery cable and closely inspected both, the problem was rather obvious, the new battery terminal was coated with plastic on the exterior side and had a good metallic contact only on the battery side of the cable end and the bolt was a bit long so it bottomed out in the battery threaded connection, before the two conductive surfaces were firmly squeezed into solid electrical contact.
I carefully measured the thread depth and bolt length and removed the bolt and replaced it after cutting off 1/8" in my drill press, by placing the bolt in a vise and using a large drill bit as a mill,that was larger in diam. than the bolt threads, bit drilling strait down into the end of the bolt so the drill bit slowly shortened the bolt. a quick test fit showed the length was now shortened and it clamped the cable firmly, now
over the next week, no problems have occurred.
the reason I bother posting this at all,is to point out the fact that even experienced guys don,t always grasp the significance of the symptoms the first time,some component fails to function, but a few careful checks with a V.O.M. meter will limit the potential suspected sources,
is IM sure at least a few guys would have been convinced the new battery was defective or the alternator was not charging, rather than verifying both first they would have made several useless trips to return the battery or bring in the alternator to check it out at the auto parts store where theres a good chance they might have been sold an alternator they didn,t need.
If your chasing an intermittent, engine miss or stumble, youll need to logically isolate and test each potential source, and while it might be related to fuel pressure, carburetor float levels or crud in the carburetor fuel bowls, or a vacuum leak, on a hose or the brake booster, or fuel pressure or volume of fuel delivery or the carb fuel level, you might also be dealing with a loose electrical connection , on the battery , other wiring or system ground in the cars ignition system or sensors, or something simple like water in the fuel, or a clogged fuel filter, the point here is LOGICALLY ISOLATE AND TEST THE POTENTIAL OPTIONS, AND IT HELPS TO HAVE A FACTORY SHOP MANUAL< A MULTI METER A VACUUM GAUGE AND TAKING NOTES WON,T HURT EITHER

theres a good deal of good and useful advise, in this thread but Id point out the
sensor(s) next to the distributor, base ,could be a cause of a problem, because occasionally one of these starts acting up intermittently causing the fuel pump or ECM to stop working,or the VATS system, or the FUEL SUPPLY SYSTEM.

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if you hear the fuel pump pressurize the fuel rails but the engine only starts than stalls, or fails to start, its frequently the fault of a defective oil pressure sensor



low oil pressure or a defective oil pressure sensor will cut off your ignition
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both these sensors, located near the base of the distributor on the block, are known to fail & leak,oil at times, especially the smaller one with two blade connectors

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http://www.bcae1.com/charging.htm

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=46972

http://www.familycar.com/Classroom/charging.htm

http://auto.howstuffworks.com/under-the ... oblems.htm

http://www.associatedcontent.com/articl ... nator.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_2210577_check-a ... ttery.html

http://www.corvette-restoration.com/res ... ing101.pdf

http://www.arizonatools.com/tools/searc ... nAodaQPAJQ

BTW if youve got an electrical problem,first check your shop manual for the fuse and fuse able link locations
fuses are located in several locations and fuse-able links near the battery

hese scanners below are popular,
but WITHOUT BOTH A SCANNER AND A FACTORY SHOP MANUAL YOULL WASTE A GREAT DEAL OF TIME

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=609

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/d ... mber=98614

this is what I use

http://www.etoolcart.com/autoxray-scann ... x6000.aspx

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=469&p=6061&hilit=scanner#p6061

tools you really need
SHOP MANUAL
timing light
vacuum gauge
IR temp gun
degree wheel
dial indicator and stand
fuel pressure gauge
V.O.M. meter
torque wrench
magnifying spark plug reader
lift or (4) 12 ton jack stands
basic mechanic hand tools
floor jack

CHECK ALL YOUR FUSES WITH A MULTI METER
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90% of your problems will be found just running thru the check list and following the shop manual suggestions, yes diagnostic software , and owning a scanner is a very good idea!


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Re: C4 sensor info

you really need a old computer, an ADL cable and software to read the info and of course YOU NEED a shop manual for YOUR YEAR CORVETTE, and a MULTI METER
reading links may seem like a waste of time , but having a shop manual, a decent up-to-date, scan tool and a multi meter and a good understanding of what your testing and why your testing it helps a great deal
like the old saying how do you eat an elephant ?......one little bite at a time! :D

all the answers are readily available, theres known testing procedures and listed test results you can expect, and procedures listed in the shop manual for isolating and testing components, you don,t need to be a genius, you just need to be logical and persistent and not afraid to learn new things while getting your hands dirty at times, don,t get overwhelmed , break everything down too easy individual problems and tests, verify and test all the sensors,and test for factors like consistent fuel pressure, known temps,expected voltage or ohms resistance, and vacuum readings and don,t randomly start replacing parts as that gets expensive and its rarely the most efficient way to eliminate problems(unless you get really lucky) with modern computer diagnostic software you,ll have some advantages but think logically, most automotive problems still concern, loose electrical connectors, defective sensors, lack of compression, fuel delivery issues ,fuel pressure, vacuum, temperature or electrical issues.


http://www.helminc.com/helm

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Measured Value
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor. 185 Ohms @ 210F, 3400 Ohms @ 68F, 7,500 Ohms @ 39 F.
Engine Oil Temperature Sensor. 185 Ohms @ 210 F, 3400 Ohms @ 68 F, 7,500 Ohms @39 F.
Oil Pressure Sender/Switch. 1 Ohms @ 0 PSI, 43 Ohms @ 30 PSI, 86 Ohms @ 60 PSI.
Fuel Quantity Sender. 0 Ohms @ Empty, 45 Ohms @ 1/2 Full, 90 Ohms @ Full.
MAT (Manifold Absolute Temperature Sensor). 185 Ohms @ 210 F, 3400 Ohms @ 70 F, 15,000 Ohms @ 40 F.
Outside Temperature Sensor. 4400 Ohms @ 60 F, 2200 Ohms @ 85 F.
In Car Temp Temperature Sensor. 4400 Ohms @ 60 F, 2200 Ohms @ 85 F.
MAF (Mass Air Flow) Sensor. .4 Volts @ idle, 5 Volts @ Full Throttle.
Oxygen (O2) Sensor. .1 Volt Lean Mixture, .9 Volt Rich Mixture.
TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). .54 Volts Idle, ~ 5 Volts Full Throttle.

Sensor Locations

Sensor


Location
Engine Coolant Temperature Sensor. Front of engine, below Throttle Body.
Engine Oil Temperature Sensor. Left rear of engine, just above the oil filter.
Oil Pressure Sender/Switch. Top, left hand rear of engine.
Fuel Quantity Sender. Top of fuel tank, beneath filler pipe escutcheon panel.
MAT (Manifold Absolute Temperature Sensor). Underside of manifold air plenum at rear.
Outside Temperature Sensor. Right side of engine, top right corner of radiator.
In Car Temp Temperature Sensor. Coupe: above left seat near interior courtesy light, Convertible: center of cargo compartment lid.
MAF (Mass Air Flow) Sensor. Front of engine ahead of throttle body.
Oxygen (O2) Sensor. Left side of engine, in exhaust pipe.
TPS (Throttle Position Sensor). Right side of throttle body at the front.


without pulling trouble codes and testing your simply guessing at best,
break the issue down into separate issues,
check ignition strength and timing,and voltage
check fuel supply/delivery pressure and volume
check cam timing and cylinder compression.
check valve train control and valve adjustment
check firing order and spark plug gap
check the valve lift, and for work lobes
check for vacuum leaks
adjust your iac and tps
check your exhaust back
pressure
verify sensors correct function
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https://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result/index/?dir=asc&order=EAScore,f,EAFeatured+Weight,f,Sale+Rank,f&q=zr13
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all the answers are readily available, theres known testing procedures and listed test results you can expect, and procedures listed in the shop manual for isolating and testing components, you don,t need to be a genius, you just need to be logical and persistent and not afraid to learn new things while getting your hands dirty at times, don,t get overwhelmed , break everything down too easy individual problems and tests, verify and test all the sensors,and test for factors like consistent fuel pressure, known temps,expected voltage or ohms resistance, and vacuum readings and don,t randomly start replacing parts as that gets expensive and its rarely the most efficient way to eliminate problems(unless you get really lucky) with modern computer diagnostic software you,ll have some advantages but think logically, most automotive problems still concern, loose electrical connectors, defective sensors, lack of compression, fuel delivery issues ,fuel pressure, vacuum, temperature or electrical issues.

http://www.helminc.com/helm

1996_Corvette.jpg


the correct matching SHOP MANUAL
TIMING LIGHT
IR TEMP GUN
VACUUM GAUGE
MULTI METER
FUEL PRESSURE GAUGE
COMPRESSION TEST GAUGE

keep in mind the basics you need to verify the fuel pressure is at about 40 psi if your dealing with a C4 corvette,
you should NOT have significant exhaust back pressure, clogged catalytic converters,
are a common problem on older c4 corvettes,

verify the fuses are not blown, the trouble codes do not show any problems,
all electrical grounds are reading good,
verify theres at least 14.5 volts at the battery while its running, so you know the alternator functions,
and all the injectors are functional with a noid light,
all cylinders should read within 10% and show about 150 psi or greater.,
on a compression test, verify the firing order,
set the spark plug gaps at .045 ,
and verify all the listed sensor values,
verify the cam lobes are not worn, verify you have at least 10 psi of oil pressure per 1000 rpm.verify theres no vacuum leaks


irtemp.jpg

http://www.professionalequipment.com/ex ... ermometer/
Wide temperature range from -58 to 1832°F (-50 to 1000°C)
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viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109
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you might have clogged catalytic converters, the ignition timing may be way off, you might have a worn out cam, the fuel pump may be defective, some injector(s) may be defective,check the alternator out-put check the fuel rail pressure use a noid light on the injector wiring, check the fuses,
Ive found that the one most commonly over looked in my experience is that the stock exhaust system, is highly restrictive, especially if the catalytic converters are partly plugged and the stock fuel delivery system is not adequate,for the potential power, the heads and intake, allowable air flow potential, are all restrictive, and the stock cam timing and lift is already near max as it was designed to produce about 260 hp,and operate at under 5700 rpm, if you try too add an additional 100-200 hp, and 1000 rpm-2000 rpm to the engines power band, and too the engines output youll quickly find this to be a factor.
I've also occasionally seen guys, improperly index or install a cam without degreeing it in correctly and thus have power band limitations.
Id suggest you buy a factory shop manual, multi meter and a timing light, fuel pressure and vacuum gauge and start checking.:thumbsup:

reading these links will be helpful
yes I know it will take some time and effort to isolate and test
but its the only 100% sure route to finding and fixing your problem,
don,t get over whelmed,
simply break the problem down to testing each basic sub system,
test each related sensor and electrical component and electrical sensor and connection.
some reading on the threads posted below, a bit of logic and deductive reasoning, and a multi meter and a shop manual will go a long way toward finding and fixing the problem.




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this is the most consistently accurate I.R temp gun I've used for testing[/img]
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http://www.testequipmentdepot.com/extech/thermometers-and-humidity-meters/infrared-thermometers/high-temperature-infrared-thermometer-58to1832f-50to1-laser-pointer-42545.htm?utm_source=bing&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=NEXT - Bing Shopping - Extech&utm_term=1100200223789&utm_content=All Extech Products
INFRARED TEMP GUN
you always need a base line to start from, on a corvette.
a logical step by step approach and keeping accurate notes helps.
youll NEED a multi meter, a shop manual
and a timing light and fuel pressure gauge at a minimum,
set and verify your ignition timing, pull trouble codes,set your tps and iac,, then check for vacuum leaks on the lines and intake,then get out your multi meter and verify all the sensors, chances are good a logical step by step approach will lead you to the problem, youll be amazed at what youll learn reading links. use of a shop manual and multi meter can be very helpful
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http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/c4-c5-corvette-trouble-codes.2697/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-high-flow-cats-on-exhaust.8401/#post-29318

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...s-cause-a-bad-idle-in-drive.14203/#post-72114

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/testing-1985-89-m-a-f-sensor.1475/#post-43635

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...le-shooting-flow-chart-info.11536/#post-71845

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ittent-cylinder-miss-problem.9478/#post-57225

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-your-tpi-maf-and-cpu-links.2825/#post-56790

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-you-failed-emmision-testing.3522/#post-52999

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...and-verify-each-possibility.11219/#post-50643

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-idles-and-sometimes-stalls.10688/#post-46303

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/1991-c4-runs-like-crap.10616/#post-45635
 
Last edited by a moderator:
read

http://members.shaw.ca/corvette86/Component Location View 86.pdf

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54543

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=596

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1401

http://forum.grumpysperformance.com/viewtopic.php?f=70&t=986

http://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=54543

buy

http://www.obd2.com/scantool/scantool.htm

http://www.amazon.com/gp/explorer/B0002KKIAK/2/ref=pd_lpo_ase/102-7445206-4788911?

or (depends on year)

http://www.harborfreight.com/cpi/ctaf/displayitem.taf?Itemnumber=46030


YOU REALLY NEED THIS


KNOWING WHAT YOUR DOING IS IMPORTANT, TO GETTING GOOD RESULTS!
no one knows everything about all models and years so it helps to have the correct procedures and info in a handy referace source,now you can get by with a HAYNES or CHILTONS manual, or something similar, but for detailed info, OWNING the CHEVY SHOP MANUAL FOR YOUR SPECIFIC CAR IS ALMOST MANDATORY!
I get asked frequently, "how did you know how to do that?"
well, EXPERIANCE plays a big roll, working on similar cars and engines helps, and the INTERNET is a good resource... but theres ALWAYS a big need for DETAILED REFERANCE MATERIAL, SPECIFICALLY MATCHING YOUR PARTICULAR CAR and if you have not yet invested in a SHOP MANUAL for the year make and model of you pride and joy muscle car your either not serious about your hobby, or most likely NOT A SERIOUS HOT RODDER! I constantly see guys SCREWING up installations, or adjustments,if you don,t know exactly what your doing, you need to either let the dealer do it and PRAY his mechanics are experianced and can read, OR..if your like ME, you would rather do it yourself and KNOW its been done correctly...
if your not aware, heres where to order them....

1-800-782-4356

http://helminc.com/helm/homepage.asp?r=

your average shop manual may cost $100-$150 ONCE! but youll easily save far more than that in reduced time and screw ups in under a years time or in many cases on one job vs having the dealer do the work!

the oil pressure switch might be defective, if the fuel pump won,t run, even if its new
and at $11-$35 Id just swap it out if your concerned

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http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?pf_i ... ept_id=153
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http://www.ecklers.com/product.asp?pf_i ... ept_id=153

the single terminal sensor runs the oil gauge the dual connector runs the fuel pump ONCE theres about 5 psi of oil pressure but they do fail and they do leak oil when they fail and both are commonly located near the distributor
 
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