Cutting up headers to make... HEADERS!

Discussion in 'Exhaust and Mufflers' started by NitroInjected, Jul 24, 2018.

  1. NitroInjected

    NitroInjected Active Member

    Save your self the back story and just read the bold text... If your bored read on...
    So I have a real big issue.
    My car is fiberglass like most vettes... But unlike most vettes it is turbocharged and has fuel tanks quite close to the engine on either side.
    So I thought of course being unfamilliar with any metallurgy... 6 months ago that I would make a grade 2 titanium header and wrap it. ... knowing now that it would melt I of course looked to a solution... alloy 625 the viagra of turbo car exhaust.
    The nickle content makes it stiffer than a stallion on a mare under the hottest conditions an exhaust can provide but even better that content also helps it resist corrosive chemicals a car should never see at those temps. There are pitfalls. It can crack almost as easily as iron. The second issue is a 341 single bend is like 40$ and I have been told inconel is expensive... I dont know how expensive as no one has ever said but it must cost as much as silver ( Theres a joke there for people who cant get straight answers out of suppliers.)
    But I did some googleing for inconel headers to see how much they cost.... Turns out nascar's toyotas are using them and beating them up. I found a set for 400 $
    What do you think about me cutting them up to make a turbo header for my lotus 910 engine?


    Oh the reason I cant use 304 is I have to wrap it so I don't burn my car to the ground The only things I can think of that would put up with that abuse are heavy nickle iron alloy and inconel.... Iron is heavy and I am not making a cast just for one part as I am not a foundry.
     
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/building-custom-headers.961/

    http://www.stainlessheaders.com/turboheader

    you might want too read this thread above first, and consider the cost of having to pay a pro too do the welding titanium correctly ,
    over and above the cost of the component parts, or buying the correct welding equipment and learning how too weld yourself, in either case..
    the more you post on the project the more I'm beginning to think you might want too look into changing either engines or swapping cars before,
    your $8000 -$12000 down the financial hole and still not making effective progress.
    one of the most common complaints I hear is from guys that drop $7000-$9000 plus over several years time, into a small block, to build what turns out to produce less than 550 hp
    and they suddenly realize, if they were going to spend that much they would have gotten far greater returns in hp per dollar spent on the project, if they were building a BBC or BB MOPAR , or EVEN a FORD, PONTIAC or CADDY engine

    The biggest problem is the cost of the filler rod........anywhere from 275.00
    to 300.00 a lb. with a 10 lb minimum order!!
    Titanium has to be welded in a 100% Argon Atmosphere.
    here are many grades of titanium and they are pretty much grade specific and require matching fillers to be welded correctly.
    your very likely to have spent $2K on a set of custom fabricated titanium headers once the cost to get them fabricated and welded plus materials is added up.
    [​IMG]
    https://www.millerwelds.com/resources/article-library/titanium-101-best-tig-gta-welding-practices

     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  3. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    They are limited to what they can do in Japan Grumpy.
    Seen pictures of Z28 Camaros 1970-1/2 and Trans And rotting in Japan.
    Un Affordable for them.
     
  4. NitroInjected

    NitroInjected Active Member

    Please read the post again one more time. Also I bought a welder just so I can do it and I have rebuilt a smashed aluminum space frame welding in new sections. I have quite a few hours under a hood with all kinds of metal... The worst being cheap steel in my triumph.
    Also remember Japan... Illegal to swap. I tried to get my car posted up... Its a real cool one for me at least and rare... 4000 ever produced period of the model. ( A lifer car)
    Not Titanium. Inconel which is a heck of a lot easier to weld and I saw headers going for as low as 200$ that I can chop up.
    I am only outsourcing lathe work and balancer work The rest is all done in house. I got to get you some photos!

    Also I turned 460 off from a 4.2L NA for 400$ I am no where near that crowd that pours money intro a motor that could buy tools. My last drag car hit 900 H.P. but that was a team thing and I only did pieces.
    My build should cost a grand total of 3000$ which is less than what my buddy had into his BBC at 800 H.P. (but man it was sweet)
    Im no chicken and I guess I may be what you all would call young but its not my first block nor is it my first weld job.... It is however my first balance job and my first time fabbing turbo stuff. You guys have a lot of sound advice but you gotta remember I am doing this path and am already at the point of no return.

    Grumpy like you.... And through all of your posts you cant deny this fact. You would never reassemble an engine that was a total turd from the factory without correcting its faults to the best of your ability.


    Also some headers are nothing to the bill. I already had a head gasket made to custom spec .... That is not at all cheap.
     
  5. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    Im certainly not trying to totally dissuade you from building the project, I'm just
    trying to have you realistically and carefully look over ..
    All your options and the resulting potential costs that are likely to result.
    building a powerful turbo enhanced 2.2 ltr 4 cylinder should be rather simple,
    but of course like most projects the more common the engine is ,
    the more likely you will be to locate affordable components.
    most guys here in the states build CHEVY FORD or MOPAR engines simply because
    of the availability of parts and cost,
    even major brands like buick and OLDS and PONTIAC that were not quite as common,
    have far less parts options and higher cost simply because fewer vendors manufacture parts for the smaller market.
    if you do build the engine your talking about, your very likely to need to be a bit creative,
    and might need to adapt similar internal component and accessory, parts from a different brand engine.
    you might find a few toyota, honda, nissan, misubishi parts from vaguely similar size 4 cylinder engines might be adaptable with minor machine work or welding .

    https://www.musclecardiy.com/performance/perforformance-exhaust-systems-header-design-and-function/

    http://www.stainlessheaders.com/turboheader
     
    Last edited: Jul 24, 2018
  6. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    That's the Cat's Azz Grumpy.
    I would Love To Have Titanium Headers.
     
  7. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    He has to get approval from the Prime Minister of Japan.
    After Fukasshima any should be allowed.
     
    Loves302Chevy and NitroInjected like this.
  8. NitroInjected

    NitroInjected Active Member

    I am kicking my own @$$ for not going with Chevy journaled vw type 1 performance rods. a 1/4 of the cost and the journals just needed to be narrowed.... would have given me a lighter rod and a more common bearing... I read your article on cranks well after I bought the rods. BTW a photo of a very close rod to mine : [​IMG]

    I might do the bad thing and just get thick wall 304 for now and wrap it and hope it lasts the year and slowly get the inconel as I find junked inconel sets. Race cars crash and parts come cheap.
     
  9. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    Have you considered Jet-Hot coating stainless steel headers?
     
  10. NitroInjected

    NitroInjected Active Member

    Eyup..... I am really thinking about just coating some 304 and seeing how long it lasts. I am expecting around 1000$ from selling some of my junk off and I can use that to build a superior set of headers next year.

    BTW: Inside or outside? I was thinking jethot inside and wrapping outside that way the crack causing rapid cool down and heat up are eliminated.

    Have you had any coated? Just remember shipping a header will cost me between 200 and 400$ each way!!!!!
     
  11. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    I have not yet, Grumpy has. You cannot wrap stainless headers, they will burn through quickly.
    But the Jet-Hot coating (or other brands) do an excellent job from what I have seen.
    I will be having my SLP 409 SS headers coated, hopefully soon.
     
  12. NitroInjected

    NitroInjected Active Member

    They just need to last until
    I get some cash. Wrapping and the header are both a must for this car as it likes to catch fire and the oem manifold likes to crack.
     
  13. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    Most important I can think of is have adequate airflow around the exhaust when driving.
    If the fuel tanks are that close bypassing eliminating them and using a Racing Fuel cell is a good option.
    Far from the exhaust.
     
  14. NitroInjected

    NitroInjected Active Member

    You really need to appreciate how this car is set up..... Its an art and a total moron fest at the same time. This motor has to be one of the worst ever made yet it put out good enough power to smash mclarens... The tanks can not move as a fuel cell would make this car not at all practical... If it was an option I would have.... I may in the long future put the rads where the tanks are now and put a big tank where the rad is... Kind of dangerous in a front end collision but I will be running full fire suppression. Please by all means look up the lotus and check out some of the crazy stupid decisions they made... Like the turbo intake for example.... The more I ponder it the more I want to rip the tanks out and run the rads in the back but thats another 3 grand to get working as I would need to add scoops among other crazy things like building custom rads.

    The above is an incomplete thought and needs editing after sleep and coffee... Theres something about a better header design in that thought .
     
  15. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    Look later.
    Working all week.
    I work 4 forums daily including Grumps here.
     
  16. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

  17. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    Lots of problems in the early years.
    910s Has a stonger block main webs.
     

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