don,t like levers

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
taylorce1 said:
This one was mine, it never shot as well as I'd have liked. Plus it had a tendency to eat scopes. I learned as well that I'm just not a lever action guy .
......
svg6.png

It went to a good home and I hope the new owner is enjoying it.


heres a link to rather interesting info on the use of heavy cast bullets in the 444 marlin

personally I think both the 45/70 and 450 marlin are a superior choice,
in a lever action, the BLR comes in 450 marlin but not 45/70
but the BLR also comes in 270 win, 358 win,300 win mag, and 13 other choices.
http://beartoothbullets.com/tech_notes/archive_tech_notes.htm/28
Id suggest that basing that decision on use of a single lever action design, in a single caliber, might be less than honest, with yourself , Ive tried and owned at one time or another, winchester, ruger,mosberg, savage, marlin, and browning lever actions,and many manufacturers make several designs, each has its distinct flaws and advantages , basing your choice after trying a single brand or model is a bit like swearing off all woman , in general after a few bad dates in high school.
while you might prefer a bolt action,semi-auto, or single shot falling block or pump, (which obviously is simply a personal preference)Id suggest trying a wide selection, and giving each a reasonable try before swearing off the basic design
personally I like the pistol caliber marlin 1894 and the browning BLR and the 1895, and 1886 winchesters I personally don,t like the savage, mosberg, or ruger designs but someone must, as they sold plenty

Ive found these two lever actions both dependable and accurate
THE BROWNING BLR in either 358 win or 450 marlin caliber chamberings
I received a brief e-mail asking why I seem to be promoting the 450 marlin BLR
Im not promoting any caliber or action type, simply pointing out what I see rather frequently, used.
blr1z.jpg


one of my close hunting partners for 3 decades carried almost nothing but a pre 1981 BLR in caliber 358 win, he was quite successful,
enough so that I purchased a post 1981 BLR, in caliber 358 win and later one in caliber 450 marlin,
both are very dependable hunting rifles, that Id carry with zero reservations,
as both consistently are fully able to shoot 1.5" 100 yard three shot groups off the bench rest.
and yes the function and triggers improve as they get a bit of wear and you become more familiar with their use.
Browning_BLR.jpg

the marlin 1894 in 44 mag

1894.jpg

http://www.midwayusa.com/product/1362147019/leupold-fx-ii-ultralight-rifle-scope-25x-20mm-matte
2.5leopold.png

Ive owned marlins in 44 mag, 444 , 45/70 and 450 marlin,
I still own a marlin in 44 mag and a BROWNING BLR in 450 marlin which each in my opinion are the best choices in 40 caliber or larger lever actions
the 44 mag because its a light,accurate fast handling deer rifle thats a joy to hunt with and carry , I load 310 grain cast gas check bullets over 21 grains of h110, sized .430,low recoil and excellent accuracy.
the 450 BLR because its exceptionally accurate very effective and will flat out stomp most big game at reasonable ranges loaded with those 405 grain remington bullets over 50 grains of IMR3031,(roughtly 1850fps) the 450 marlin caliber BLR feeds better than the 45/70,marlin and its more accurate and having a front locking bolt its stronger, allowing a bit more safety margin

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_d...+Reloading+Data

YEAH, A BROWNING blr IN 450 MARLIN
blrpic.jpeg

IS DESIGNED TO HANDLE max PRESSURE LEVELS in factory ammo,of about 43,000
psi roughly 50% higher than a 45/70, ,the action on a marlin 450 marlin BLR is front locking like a bolt action , it can safely handle slightly more pressure. a rear locking action on a marlin lever action can,t safely handle , more than about 33000 psi
the marlin is from what Ive read several places designed to handle approximately 32000-33000 psi
absolute max[/COLOR]

most loads are well under 28,000 psi hot loads are well under 30,000 psi, and a stead diet of those 30,000 psi loads in a marlin 45/70 will eventually strain and loosen components over time,
http://www.garrettcartridges.com/chamberpressure.html
marlin_444_rifle.jpg


.444 Marlin Reloading and Ballistics Data
Test-Fire: Marlin Model 444 18-1/2” .444 Marlin

Bullet Load MV
Barnes 275 gr. JFP 48.0 gr. H322 1945 fps
Barnes 275 gr. JFP 46.0 gr. Re-7 2081 fps
Barnes 275 gr, JFP 45.0 gr. Re-7 2030 fps
Hornady 265 gr. JFP 46.0 gr. H322 1787 fps
Hornady 265 JFP 48.0 gr. H322 1925 fps
Hornady 265 JFP 51.0 gr. H322 2030 fps
Hornady 265 JFP 45.0 gr. Re-7 1951 fps
Hornady 265 JFP 51.5 gr. H4895
1894 fps

Hornady 300 XTP 46.0 gr. H322
1884 fps

Hornady 300 XTP 48.0 gr. H322
1974 fps

Hornady 300 XTP 45.0 gr. Re-7
2105 fps

Hornady 300 XTP 51.3 gr. H4895
1927 fps

Sierra 300 gr. JFP 46.0 gr. H322
1833 fps

Sierra 300 gr. JFP 48.0 gr H322
1939 fps

Sierra 300 gr. JFP 51.5 gr.H4895
1894 fps

Sierra 300 JFP 45.0 gr. Re-7
1957 fps

Speer 270 GDHP 46.0 gr. H322
1833 fps

Speer 270 GDHP 48.0 gr. H322
1938 fps

Speer 270 GDHP 45.0 gr. Re-7
1944 fps

Speer 300 JFP 49.5 gr. H4895
1791 fps

Speer 300 JFP 51.5 gr. H4895
1823 fps

Speer 300 JFP 46.0 gr. H322
1882 fps

Speer 300 JFP 48.0 gr. H322
1939 fps

Speer 300 JFP 45.0 gr. Re-7
1846 fps



CAST BULLET LOADS:

Bullet Load MV
NEI #295.429GC 49.5 gr. H4895 1831 fps
NEI #295.429GC 51.5 gr. H4895 1900 fps
NEI #295.429GC 48.0 gr. H322
2060 fps

CPBC 320 LBT 45.0 gr. Re-7
2065 fps

RCBS #44-300GC 49.5 gr. H4895
1906 fps

SSK 310 FP 51.3 gr. H4895
1918 fps


kaboom2.jpg

its stupid to push your handloads past the rifles designed pressure limits but obviously people have occasionally done so!


personally having owned and used the marlin, in 444 and 45/70 extensively for 2 decades,
and after swapping too the BROWNING BLR in calibers 358 and 450 marlin
after extensive personal testing
Id say the BLR in 358 win is the most versatile and the BLR in 450 marlin, is a better substitute for the 45/70,
both BLR carbines are both much better more precisely machined,, stronger actions that allow pointed bullets and both BLR's are more accurate options ,
and both the BLRs can generally be found for near $1000 or less

the 450 marlin is listed at 44 k max pressure the 45/70 listed at 28 k max

keep in mind the BLR is available in 6.5 credmoor and 308 win, 243, and used in 270, 30/06, 257 roberts are available

https://www.browning.com/products/firearms/rifles/blr/blr-lightweight-81.html

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

http://kwk.us/pressures.html
http://kwk.us/pressures.html

http://www.chuckhawks.com/450Marlin.htm

http://www.lasc.us/SAAMIMaxPressure.htm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chamber_pressure

theres no need to push any 45/70 or 450 marlin to greater than about 28,000 psi
a 405-450 grain bullet will generally maximize the results, in the compromise between flat trajectory and penetration as heavier bullets take up a great deal of powder case capacity in either case.
a 45/70 can safely push a 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet to about 1800 fps
a 450 marlin can push the same bullet to about 2070 fps

you can play with ballistic computers and trajectory charts for weeks if you care too but the math and facts won,t change,if you want to carry a useful rifle that you can expect to use in the feild with a reasonable trajectory, you can graph out the difference between all the potential bullet weights and velocity's, if you care to, (as an engineer I did that lots of times)it won,t change the fact that both the 45/70 and 450 marlin have very similar case capacity and if you graph out all the 300grn -500 grn projectiles loaded to max safe pressures, the 450 marlin holds a minor advantage with its slightly higher safe working pressure and that your most efficient loads based on trajectory, and retained energy and limited case capacity always favor the 350-430 grain projectiles.
look at the loads listed earlier, use a ballistic calculator
youll eventually be forced into that realization , by simple math

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/
the additional 150-175 or so fps that the 450 marlin allows, over a 45/70 is not all that significant once you realize that the minor increase in impact energy and flatter trajectory will be a very minor advantage and either cartridge punches through an elk and whats behind it easily.
either rifle will kick the crap out of your shoulder at those speeds, if you shoot a great deal of ammo, and either cartridge or rifle loaded too about 1800 fps with 405 grain CAST gas check, or jacketed bullet, loaded to about 1800 fps will punch clear through an elk at 200 yards ... and still punch through a 4" aspen behind that elk, from personal in the field experience
it would be stupid to push pressure higher, that those listed max velocity's above in my opinion, and experience, as the cartridge is devastating on anything so loaded.
BTW, the Hornady 350 grain, .458 diam bullet and both the Remington and Speer 400-405 grain bullets work great on ELK,
even out at 250 yards and under, but will reach or reliably further in experienced hands.
the speer 250 grain is excellent in the BLR 358 win


http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/d...70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
Rick20Jaimeson.jpg


ELK ARE NOT STUPID, as soon as they detect hunters they move to the least accessible areas with the thickest cover , and that usually means youll spend a great deal more time slowly and carefully sneaking thru timber than shooting across open fields like those magazine article pictures taken of elk in parks like yellow-stone suggest.

Ive used a 45/70 for decades in hunting elk in thick cover in colorado canyon country like these pictures others have posted, and lately I traded in my 45/70 marlin for a 450 marlin BLR its noticeably more accurate, than the marlin, the best load I found is a 405 grain remingtom bullet over 50 grains of imr3031 and a 215 fed primer
col1.jpg

P1000158.JPG

elkcoun1.png

deepcreek.JPG


450 marlin handloads.

Wt. Bullet Powder Manufacturer Powder Charge Velocity (FPS) 250 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 57.0 2,288
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 60.0 1,970
Remarks: 1.95 group
300 Nosler Partition Accurate XMR-2015 62.0 2,091
Remarks: 1.80 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 51.5 1,751
Remarks: 2.25 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 53.0 1,869
Remarks: 2.10 group
300 Sierra JHP Vihtavuori VV-N130 54.0 1,990
Remarks: 1.90 group
300 Barnes XFN Hodgdon H-4198 50.0 1,982
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon H-4198 48.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.60 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 59.0 1,770
Remarks: 1.65 group
350 Hornady FP Hodgdon Varget 61.0 1,821
Remarks: 1.70 group
350 Kodiak FP IMR IMR-3031 56.0 1,827
Remarks: 1.55 group
350 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-335 60.0 1,872
Remarks: 1.20 group
400 Speer FN Hodgdon H-4895 56.0 1,773
Remarks: 1.75 group
405 Kodiak FP Hodgdon H-322 52.5 1,842
Remarks: 1.50 group
405 Magma cast IMR IMR-4198 32.0 1,332
Remarks: 2.00 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 48.0 1,875
Remarks: 1.80 group
415 RCBS cast GC Alliant RL-7 50.0 1,960
Remarks: 1.45 group

300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 38.7 1,928
Remarks: start chg
300 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 43.0 2,096
Remarks: max chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.0 1,716
Remarks: start chg
405 Lead Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 40.0 1,865
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.2 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 48.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 52.2 2,198
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 58.0 2,389
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 54.9 2,217
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 61.0 2,410
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 58.1 2,226
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 64.5 2,420
Remarks: max chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 60.3 2,214
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 67.0 2,407
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 59.4 2,001
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 66.0 2,175
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 56.7 2,034
Remarks: start chg
300 Sierra FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 63.0 2,211
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 39.4 1,813
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-5744 43.8 1,971
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 46.1 1,919
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-1680 51.2 2,086
Remarks: max chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 50.0 2,030
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2015 55.5 2,207
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 55.8 2,067
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2230 62.0 2,247
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 55.8 2,010
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2460 62.0 2,185
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 54.9 1,892
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2495 61.0 2,057
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 55.8 1,982
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2520 62.0 2,154
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 55.8 1,719
Remarks: start chg
350 Speer FNHP Accurate AAC-2700 62.0 1,869
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 36.9 1,688
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-5744 41.0 1,835
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 41.4 1,732
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-1680 46.0 1,883
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 47.3 1,883
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2015 52.5 2,047
Remarks: max chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 49.9 1,877
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2230 55.4 2,040
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 54.0 1,909
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2460 60.0 2,075
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 49.5 1,689
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2495 55.0 1,836
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 53.1 1,875
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2520 59.0 2,038
Remarks: max chg; compressed load
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 53.1 1,620
Remarks: start chg
400 Speer Flat Nose Accurate AAC-2700 59.0 1,761
Remarks: max chg; compressed load


300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-3031 52.5 1,870
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
300 Barnes XFN IMR IMR-4198 44.2 2,000
Remarks: 39,000 psi
300 Nosler Partition IMR IMR-3031 57.0 2,100
Remarks: 35,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-3031 56.0 2,030
Remarks: 38,000 psi; compressed powder charge
350 Hornady IMR IMR-4198 45.0 2,050
Remarks: 40,000 psi
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-3031 50.8 1,860
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge
400 Remington soft point IMR IMR-3031 50.0 1,840
Remarks: 40,000 psi; compressed powder charge (VERY ACCURATE)
400 Barnes Flat Nose IMR IMR-4198 40.0 1,820
Remarks: 40,000 psi


if you want a good 450 marlin load try 50 grains of IMR 3031 under a 405 remington bullet and a 215 fed primer, its accurate and will kill anything in north America if you place your shots well,

load either cartridge to about 1850 fps with that 405 grain remington, sight in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards and start hunting the thick timber knowing you holding thors hammer, most of your shots will be well under 150 yards but even at 250 yards a center chest hold is devastating on deer or elk.
want a bit flatter trajectory and less recoil?
use a 350 grain hornady and 50 grains of varget powder in your 450 marlin gets you there! and you can easily use up to 59 grains for increased velocity , but Its not really required to still hit like a freight train.

405tra.png
 
Last edited by a moderator:
id like to get a marlin like that in 44 mag and apply for a stamp to make it an SBR... cut it down to an inch past the end of the furniture, thread the barrel and put a silencer on one. maybe do something different with the furniture than the factory stuff... im just weird like that i guess... i think it would be a cool fun gun to shoot and maybe pop snakes and gophers with around a farm or ranch.
 
my late hunting partner considered anyone not equipped, with a browning BLR in caliber 358 win ,
while hunting elk too be hampered and working under a sever dis-advantage
I loaded for him for almost 30 years , fed 215 primer, 250 grain speer and 44 grains of IMR 4064
that carbine accounted for at least 14 elk over 35 years.
.
blr1z.jpg


just a tip or two,
(1) use gas check bullet designs, they consistently provide less bore fouling
(2) use 215 fed primers as they seem to be the most consistent in my testing
(3) size the bullets you cast at .459, any smaller and accuracy seems to suffer
(4) if you graph out bullet weight vs velocity , and retained energy at 100 and 200 yards,

you get a curve indicating the 350 grain -420 grain weight is about ideal, in the 45/70 and 450 marlin rifles

all cartridges should be loaded to near max length the magazine can handle for best functional durability/consistency
as the loaded cartridge length must be rather consistent, heavier projectiles take up more of the available powder capacity, on reason projectiles over about 420 grains are not ideal.
http://gaschecks.castpics.net/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=3&products_id=17
gaschecknm1.png

gascheckmn2.png

heres a few molds I find work well.
http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html

458-355-gc.jpg

the 355 seems to shoot well with most powders

458-405-gc.jpg

the pointed 405 can be used in the browning BLR box magazine but its marginally less accurate than the 355 grain in my experience, your rifle might be different
BTW I cast my bullets from 95% WW alloy and 5% pure tin, sized and lubed to .459 diam


https://www.midwayusa.com/product/632708/rcbs-1-cavity-bullet-mold-45-405-fn-45-caliber-458-diameter-405-grain-flat-nose-gas-check

heres jacketed bullets well documented to work well,in a 450 marlin

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/45-cal-458-350-gr-interlock-rn#!/

https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1...-government-458-diameter-405-grain-soft-point

https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/rifle-bullets/hot-cor-rifle-bullets/458/458-350-fn-bullet

https://www.speer-ammo.com/bullets/...flat-nose-rifle-bullets/458/458-400-fn-bullet

IMR 3031 and WW748 , and RL7 powders all work rather well.

https://www.hornady.com/bullets/rifle/45-cal-458-350-gr-interlock-rn#!/

he constantly referred to my 340 wby as a "damn CANNON"
we were both successful.
Many of the guys that are not lever action fans, buy bolt or pump actions in caliber 35 whelen, the 35 whelen adds about 200 fps to the same bullets the 358 win shoots,
( I doubt any elk or deer knows the difference)several of the guys I hunt elk with think the 7600 35 whelen, is a top choice,
I've used one and I don,t see a damn thing thats in need of improvement if you hunt the ticker timber areas.
Model7600n.jpg


http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=35 Whelen&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Source=

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=358%20Winchester&Weight=All&type=rifle&Order=Powder&Source=

if you have a 358 win BLR,


215 fed primer, 250 speer seated out to max length the magazine allows with 44.5-45 grains grains of IMR 4064 is what most of the guys in my elk hunt club use, most of those BLRs will hold a 1"-1.2" 100 yard group with a decent rest and a good 2x7x scope.
we all sight in to hit 3.5" high at 100 yards
bloodc.jpg

you simply sight in at 100 yards off the bench on the yellow dot and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot, print the target so you get it sized for 1" squares
sitetar.jpg


when you get out in the field, hold where the light green dot is it will produce a fatal wound out too a bit past 300 yards, you sure don,t have to use this method or even agree but I can assure you its resulted in a bunch of dead elk

http://www.hornady.com/ballistics-resource/ballistics-calculator

http://www.speer-bullets.com/ballistics/detail.aspx?id=118

http://www.reloadersnest.com/query_bw.asp?CaliberID=191&BulletWeight=250

http://www.loaddata.com/members/search_detail.cfm?MetallicID=1033

Browning_BLRa.jpg


Bugger said:
....
I'm curious have you recovered any of those Speer bullets in elk? Have you used that load on deer?

BTW 1" to 1.2" in a 358 sounds good to me. Thanks

While I own and have hunted with my 358 win BLR and used it to kill several mule deer and two elk personally,,most of the results Ive seen were the result of helping my late hunting partner,Ron, dress out game,he used his BLR 358 win almost exclusively for decades ,so dressing out the game he shot with his impressed me and got me to buy mine,
I have generally used my 375 h&h sako or 340 wby.
now Ive rarely seen a 250 speer bullet recovered ,most exit,
but I have seen a good many dead elk and deer as a result of the several 308 win and 358 win, BLRs in camp being used.
Id point out that both myself and Ron,
generally hunt thick timber and I can,t remember any game shot at over 300 yards,
and most were pass through heart/lung shots, the few recovered speer 250 bullets,
were generally from elk shot facing the hunter , found in the guts.
00small40521082.JPG


yes the bullets expanded nicely, and IM not the only guy that likes them, the speer 250 grain expands reliably at 358 win velocities, the 250 hornady with its thicker jacket design, penetrates deeper
, and some guys seem to prefer those in the 35 whelen.
but in most cases the speer seems to provide more consistent ,
and better,accuracy, in my and several other 358 win and 35 whelen rifles.


http://www.midwayusa.com/product/65...iber-358-diameter-250-grain-spitzer-box-of-50

http://35cal.com/35bullet_study/35bullet_study1.html

http://www.35cal.com/bullets.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...nt-perspective-on-ideal-hunting-rifles.11928/

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth...cs/5367761/all/35_Whelen_and_Speer_250_gr_bul

theres many guys who seem to feel the 358 win is far less effective than the 35 whelen, in real world results youll rarely see a difference as the same bullets are launched at about a 150-200 fps difference, so you could expect identical results if you were a bit closer when you shot game with the 358 win.

my hand loads (WHICH ARE LISTED AND NOT THAT HOT)of 44.5 grains of IMR 4064 with that speer bullet have been used for 3 decades plus by several guys in my group and theres never been a single complaint as to lethality or accuracy, remember most elk we have killed were killed at WELL under 300 yards and I can,t remember many people even seeing elk in timber over 150 yards

ELK COUNTRY IN MY EXPERIENCE LOOKS MOSTLY LIKE THIS
elkcoun1.png

col1.jpg
 
Last edited:
Paul, I've read through several dozen of these threads and I find it rather interesting that,
I know you've brought a marlin 45/70 on several hunts in past years and been successful using it in the past ,
yet I've barely seen you mention it here!
 
for the few readers that may not know , Mitch is my wife's brother (my brother-in-law)
and while he rarely hunts with me he does go to the ranges and enjoys shooting, just not sleeping outside in the snow!
and Mitch is correct that marlin 45/70 with hand loaded cast bullet ammo made the trip out west at minimum of at least 6-7 times as the camp back-up rifle,
just as my slide action Remington 30/06 and Rons Remington slide action 35 whelen have, on several trips, while he was here.
those three rifles have probably seen more combined use , from members of our camp, and resulted in guys buying similar rifles over the years, than I can remember.
it almost has become standard and expected that some member will have a scope or rifle damaged at some point in the hunt, so a camp back-up rifle when your 2400,
miles from home sure makes sense,and the the rather amazing thing is guys using the back-up rifle seem to have better than average results.
Personally I think it has to do with an attitude adjustment, if your carrying a 7mm or 300 mag that your confident can hit accurately out at 500 yards I think you tend to pay less attention to the immediate area around you, but if your carrying a 45/70 , or 35 whelen, that you don,t trust past 150 yards, you darn sure slow down and watch every shadow and movement around you, and THAT change in YOUR awareness, OF YOUR SURROUNDINGS WHILE HUNTING makes a difference.
Like Ive stated a few dozen times the magazines seem to make elk hunting out to be a 500-900 yard sniping technical exercise rather than the watch the wind,,watch your shadow,outline,movement, keep in the shadows and move slowly and carefully, sneaky, sport, Ive found it to be, that requires careful observation, a knowledge of topo map's game trails and probable hunting pressure, what the game eats, where it prefers to hide , feed and drink.

have you ever been really impressed with a friends rifle...decided to buy a similar rifle only to realize it was not as ideal or impressive as your first impression?
obviously we all have different requirements and experiences,and each of us will like or appreciate different things.
Obviously my choices may not match your criteria, or aesthetic values.
back in about 1967 one of my hunting buddies purchased a marlin 444, he made some very impressive, shots and it seemed to drop deer like thors hammer,
after I purchased a similar rifle and used it for a dozen plus years, I was less impressed, and while that 444 marlin, performed well, and and after I had the time to compare it to a very similar marlin in caliber 45/70.
Well at least too me I was much more impressed with the 45/70's performance and after several decades, of using both occasionally, on hunting trips, ,
over about 30 years of hunting with the marlins,
I purchased a browning BLR , in caliber 450 marlin,
I sold both the marlin's ,
the 444 a few years after I bought the 45/70 marlin,
that as I felt that was a big improvement over the 444,
and the 45/70, was sold eventually as I felt that the 450 marlin caliber BLR, was a big improvement over the marlin 45/70.
the BLR was the noticeably superior choice,in my opinion, as it was the most accurate Id found and had a stronger action.
btw in that 450 marlin BLR, 50 grains of imr 3031 over a 215 fed primer and using a 405 Remington soft point has proven too be exceptionally effective.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-practice-shooting-from-field-positions.9380/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/using-a-decent-carbine-on-an-elk-hunt.9932/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/using-my-45-70-marlin.4320/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rassment-from-friends-over-your-choice.10059/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/that-back-up-rifle-choice.11004/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/don-t-over-scope-an-elk-rifle.9359/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...re-than-one-rifle-on-out-of-state-hunts.7403/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...i-hunt-the-more-i-like-the-33-38-45-cal.2846/
 
Last edited:
They'll always be around.

DOTL3CAPAZE2VK44YY2CYEJIEA.jpg

The 8 Greatest Lever Guns Ever

From the Civil War to WWI, we were a lever-gun nation. Today, the best of these rifles are neither gone nor forgotten

author-petzal.jpg

By David E. Petzal
July 19, 2019
3G2G2YTEPRO5RTALOIP3QFVD4M.jpg

The Marlin 1895 is one of a handful of iconic lever guns from around the turn of the last century.Turnbull Restoration
They are turning up by the scores in used-gun racks, their wooden stocks battered and once-blued steel worn silver. The grandfathers who used them are afield in happier hunting grounds, and the grandkids who would have gotten them either don’t hunt or prefer something tactical.

The time of the lever as the Number One Gun has passed.

But from 1861 to 1918—from the Civil War to World War I—we were a lever-action nation. Lever rifles took us from the era of the muzzleloader to the modern bolt-action. Nor have we forgotten that. There is still no shortage of people to whom “deer rifle” means “lever action.”

Cowboy Action Shooters are behind Winchester’s re-introduction of the Model 1873. Marlin offers no fewer than 10 variations of the Model 1895, or you can go to any number of custom shops who will build you a hot-rodded 1895 for a great deal of money. Lever-action guns can shoot at long range, drop elephants, and print minute-of-angle groups. Doug Turnbull has transformed them into an art form with his magnificent restorations. And if you want an original gun, scars and all, you need only look to that used-gun rack.

ADVERTISEMENT / ADVERTISE WITH US
The best lever guns are neither gone nor forgotten. Here are the greatest models from the lever’s Golden Age.

The Henry Repeating Rifle
ESI3XKKICIV42IG4E4VKTF3MMA.jpg

A fine example of a vintage Henry Repeating Rifle, made in 1863.Turnbull Restorations
It arrived in time for the Civil War, and introduced the concept of fire superiority to the battlefield. In the hands of a skilled soldier, a Springfield Rifle Musket could get off three rounds per minute. The Henry, which held 15 copper (later brass) cartridges in a tubular magazine, could be fired 24 times in 60 seconds. It was to the rifle musket as an M4 is to an ’03 Springfield.

The Henry was not robust, nor was it very powerful. It used a .44 rimfire cartridge whose realistic maximum range was perhaps 150 yards. But the Henry could pour out the lead, and of the 8,000 or so that served in the Union Army, many were private purchase. The gun cost $40. A Union corporal made $13 a month. But the Boys in Blue were glad to spend the money. They had seen fire superiority at work.

ADVERTISEMENT / ADVERTISE WITH US
The Winchester Model 1866
JA77V75KL5Y57D5D4FBBKULGC4.jpg

Winchester’s current-production Model 1866 Short Rifle.Winchester
The Model 1866 is the first Winchester lever-action, courtesy of Oliver F. Winchester, who took over the New Haven Arms Company during the Civil War and changed its name to Winchester Repeating Arms in 1866.

The 1866 was a 14-shot .44 rimfire with a distinctive brass-alloy frame. Mechanically, it was much improved over the Henry with a loading port added to the receiver and the tubular magazine reinforced by a wooden fore-end.

Native Americans called it “Yellow Boy,” because of the frame. The Sioux and Cheyenne had a fair number of them at the Little Big Horn, and they proved superior to the far more powerful .45/70 Model 1873 Springfield cavalry carbine.

ADVERTISEMENT / ADVERTISE WITH US
The Model 1866 had a long run. It was produced until 1899, and 720,000 were made. How many lives it saved will never be known. If you had Yellow Boy in your saddle scabbard, you had a chance of emerging alive from whatever you got yourself into.

The Winchester Model 1873
OMXZ2BOV3L4LSCUBDM5MCQIEVQ.jpg

A fine antique Model 73 (circa 1888) with 24-inch octagon barrel and Lyman tang sight.Turnbull Restoration
Winchester Repeating Arms has long billed the Model 1873 as “the gun that won the West,” and in this case, they may just be right. When the West really was wild, the Model 73 was the go-to rifle.

It was the direct offspring of the Yellow Boy, but the brass frame was replaced by a much stronger iron one, and the anemic .44 rimfire cartridge was succeeded by the more powerful centerfire .44/40. The .44/40 was a pistol cartridge, but that meant that you could carry both a Model 1873 and a revolver in that caliber and swap ammo without a care in the world.

ADVERTISEMENT / ADVERTISE WITH US
In 1875, Winchester began the practice of selecting its most accurate Model 73 barrels and building guns around them with set triggers, extra-nice finish, and the engraved legend, “One of One Thousand.” These special editions sold for $100, which is the equivalent of $2,300 today. In 1950, an A-list Hollywood western starring Jimmy Stewart was made entitled “Winchester 73.”

Over 720,000 Model 73s were made between its introduction and 1923, when it was finally discontinued.

The Winchester Model 1886
S7QVENFZ7ZBFFYS4AWKPGGMA2E.jpg

A Winchester Model 1886 made in 1891 and restored in 1980 by Turnbull Restoration.Turnbull Restoration
The Model 1886 is a John M. Browning design, and it’s been called the American version of the British express rifle—a heavy, powerful gun designed to deliver crushing blows fast.

It’s also a prime example of the way firearms used to be made. Its mechanism has a glassy smoothness that you can find only in other firearms of the time and in hardly any modern ones at all. Although it came from a factory, the Winchester 86 was a handmade rifle.

Originally chambered in .45/70, .45/90, .40/82, and the .50/110 Express, the Model 86 later transitioned to smokeless cartridges, most notably the .33 WCF. The locking-block action was more than strong enough; all that was needed was a nickel-steel barrel.

The Model 86 stayed in production from 1886 to 1935; 160,000 were made. Teddy Roosevelt owned one and loved it. So did a lot of other people.

The Winchester Model 1894
5KIXPVLSS4J5UVZS6KNDQFYX4M.jpg

A vintage Model 94. Winchester still offers more than half a dozen versions of this classic lever gun.Winchester
Here is a rifle of superlatives. “Model 94” is practically synonymous with “deer rifle.” Another John M. Browning design, it was originally intended as a black-powder gun, but when it came into production in 1895, it was chambered for the brand-new smokeless .30 WCF (later called the .30/30), and the two became synonymous.

The Model 94 was short, handy, light for its time, carried nicely in the hand, snaked in and out of a saddle scabbard, fired fast, was dead reliable, and kicked very little. It was not all that accurate, but in those times, no one cared. Nor could it accept a scope; but this was in the era before scopes.

So popular was the Model 94 that it was the first commercial sporting rifle whose sales exceeded 7 million. Winchester produced it until 2006. Fitted with good iron sights, it’s still a terror to deer everywhere.

The Savage Model 99
FQ7H6RIOZK4NMWYL2Q5LQXL5F4.jpg

This Savage 99, in .300 Savage, was made in 1936.Turnbull Restoration
If ever there was a rifle that was ahead of its time, it’s Arthur Savage’s hammerless masterpiece. Because of its rotating-spool magazine (later changed to a detachable box), it could use spitzer bullets rather than flat-points, greatly extending its range. It had enough strength to handle modern, high-intensity cartridges. It had a good trigger. It ejected to the side, not up, so you could mount a scope on it. It was dead reliable and, for a lever gun, accurate.

The 99 was chambered for a wide variety of cartridges, and I’d guess that most rifles were sold in .300 Savage, which is very similar to the .308. However, the round that brought the 99 to glory was the .250/3000 Savage, which fired an 87-grain bullet at the then-unheard-of velocity of 3,000 fps.

The 99 had a long and glorious run, lasting from 1899 to 1998. Today, they’re becoming available in all calibers, models, and conditions. If it were me, I’d look for a rotary-magazine model in nice shape, chambered for the .250/3000. It was a jewel when it was made, and it’s still a gem among rifles.

The Marlin Model 1895
3G2G2YTEPRO5RTALOIP3QFVD4M.jpg

A made-to-order Turnbull Finished Marlin 1895 in .45/70.Turnbull Restoration
Is there a stranger story than that of the Model 1895, the Rifle that Will Not Die? I doubt it. This one has had three incarnations: The first, which appeared three years before the turn of the 19th century, was a good, solid rifle that never really caught on. It ran for only 22 years and only 18,000 were made. Incarnation Number Two came in 1972, when Marlin reintroduced a version based on the Model 336 frame, and chambered in .45/70. This coincided with a resurgence of interest in the ancient cartridge. People were discovering that it could drop deer with dispatch and very little recoil, or you could load it up to near-.458 levels. In 2006, Hornady came out with its plastic-tipped LEVERevolution ammo that enabled you to use spitzer bullets in a tubular magazine, and turned a 150-yard rifle into a 300-yarder.

Then came the customized 1895s, of which there are currently 10 in the Marlin line. Marlin has its own custom shop which will turn out something really fancy for you, and there are a number of independent custom gunsmiths who specialize in turning Model 1895s into objects of wonder.

The Marlin Model 39A
5AJTCJR3ZURKUPRVY7LV6RLIH4.jpg

Marlin’s custom-shop Model 39A Fancy.Marlin Firearms
This paragon among .22 rimfires has hell of a credential: It’s the oldest and longest continuously produced shoulder firearm in the world. It began as the Model 1891, which was used by Annie Oakley, and thereby got a compelling endorsement. It then morphed into the Model 1892, and then to the Model 1897, and then to the Model 39A, and finally to the Model 39A Golden, which is a Marlin Custom Shop proposition.

There are 2.2 million of them out there, and they’re essentially the same gun: a firearm of lovely balance, handsome lines, infallible performance, excellent accuracy, and the ability to use Short, Long, or Long Rifle ammo interchangeably.

Good 39As do not come cheap, and the really nice, or rare, ones cost serious money. Is there such a thing as a perfect firearm? No, but this one comes pretty close.
 
at one time or another Ive owned and still own several , the marlin 39A is a true marvel of craftsmanship,
the 1894 in 44 mag has taken train loads of deer
but I tend to think the BROWNING BLR is the best of the currently available designs
I used a marlin 45/70 for decades with zero complaints
458-355-gc.jpg

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
I found this bullet to be especially accurate in my marlin 45/70 over 45 grains of IMR 4198, Im not sure what velocity youll get in your rifle but cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin,well lubed its accurate,and it shoots thru deer,hogs and elk , holds tight groups,and generally works real well with expected results..very dead game.

mar1895.png

but the most popular lever action in my group of people I've hunted with , for decades ,
is without doubt the BROWNING BLR,
in calibers like 358 win, 308 win, 257 Roberts,
30/06, and 450 marlin are all well liked
and in my experience significantly more accurate than the marlin lever guns.
now I'm not suggesting the marlin is not accurate, but 1"-1.5" 100 yard 3 shot groups with the BROWNING lever gun is not uncommon
and 1.5"- 2" groups from the marlin are much more common in my experience
certainly either option will take any deer or elk, in skilled hands.
I've owned several Winchesters and savage lever guns.., traded or sold them all over the years, each to his own, never liked the feel or function.

Browning_BLR.jpg
 
Last edited:
that elusive dream whitetail rifle
I've owned a rifle, and scope combo that one of my hunting buddies has borrowed on several occasions
in his mind its the absolute best whitetail combo that exists.
every deer he's ever shot with my BLR, dropped almost instantly
hes mesmerized by that rifle.
Browning_BLR.jpg

I had loaded 100 grain speer bullets and WW760 or RL 12
both powders are and were able to be used for great loads,
and its a damn shame RL12 is no longer sold ,
as in my BLR if would consistently,
hold under 3/4" 3 shot 100 yard groups off a bench rest.
https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/hot-cor_rifle_bullet/19-1405.html
its simply a browning BLR in caliber 257 Roberts
I have recently mounted a 30mm tube 1x6x scope on the rifle
and hes been offering me a great deal of cash for what he considers to be that elusive dream whitetail rifle.
BUT I've sold far to many rifles in the past that I really regretted selling,
Ive also found it to be a really consistent and accurate rifle, but its not unique, as most BLR carbines are very accurate,
so I've kept an eye out for a similar combo, as browning no longer makes BLRs in 257 Roberts.
well, last week I found a similar BLR advertised locally and let him know.
he immediately contacted the seller and made arrangements to look it over and purchase it,
and he's now looking for the mounts, rings and scope he will need.
now I fully appreciate the fact we all have rifles and cartridges we all think are ideal,
but realistically I doubt that your results would vary enough to tell any difference
if he used a 6.5mm or a 7mm08 or even a 270 win on those deer.
for local deer and hogs, I generally grab a BLR in 358 win or a Ruger #1 in 270 win,
and I've never felt deprived or not well-armed.
I'm very happy he found his dream combo at a decent price, but realistically,
I feel its a nice high-quality combo but hardly unique.
do any of you gentlemen have a rifle and caliber you feel is significantly better than most options?
if so, how with so many similar rifles and caliber options available do you think a minor tweak in caliber,
case capacity, bullet weight or a change in action type makes any real difference.
I've killed enough deer and elk to realize its mostly the skill and persistence of the hunter, not the rifle or caliber that matters to your success.
yeah! a 257 Roberts short action bolt gun would be a darn nice and effective choice
especially if it had a 20"-22" barrel and weight under about 6.5 lbs
(but about any caliber based on a 7mm mauser or 308 win case from 6mm-to .375 would work)
in my experience, whitetail deer are not all that difficult to kill, with a properly placed shot,
and the need to make shots at ranges over 250 yards are rather rare.
 
Last edited:
just for grins I sort of averaged the load data presented in several reloading manuals
keep in mind a BLR carbines shorter barrel.

257 roberts at 2970 fps with a 100 grain bullet== about 1959 ft lbs
a 7mm 08 at 2750 fps with a 139 grain bullet== about 2334 ft lbs
a 308 win, at 2670 fps with a 165 grain bullet== about 2613 ft lbs
a 358 win at 2550 fps with a 200 grain bullet== about 2880 ft lbs
358 win is 53,000 psi
with a 250 grain speer bullet
https://www.midsouthshooterssupply....250-grain-hot-cor-spitzer-soft-point-50-count
sighted in at 3.5" high at 100 yards,

using 44 grains of imr 4064 AND A 215 FEDERAL PRIMER
(how everyone in our hunt club does it)
a 358 win will be about dead on at 200 yards and about 10 inchs low at 300 yards

btw
the speer 220 gain flat tip .358 bullet ,
loaded over 51 grains of 748 winchester powder
and a 215 federal primer has proven to be very effective on hogs and deer,
if used in a 358 win BLR

https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_bullets/
it would certainly kill elk but most if not all my friends vastly prefer the 250 grain speer bullet for elk.



while the calculated energy potential differs, with the cartridge selected in a BLR, carbine
I doubt there will be any lack of lethality in skilled hands,
concerning use and observed results with proper shot placement,
on a typical deer at common ranges
 
Last edited:
icon1.gif
where has that rifle been all my life!
I just got back from the local outdoor rifle range, where I let one of the local guys.. his names.. BILL,
try out my BLR in caliber 358 win with 250 grain speer bullets,

the load Ive used in that rifle is and has always been,
a 215 fed primer under 44 grains of IMR 4064 and a speer 250 grain bullet
well, most people occasionally shoot a decent tight group,
but Bill, shot two 3 shot groups off the bench rest at 100 yards,
(the first two groups he shot)
that you could easily cover with a quarter, ....
he turns to me with a silly grin and says
" where has that rifle been all my life!"
hes got this silly grin, and I know he was impressed,
I told him that the groups are a bit better than you could expect,
but 1"-1.5" groups or less off the bench at 100 yards are rather normal
I said.... most of the last 40 plus years that particular rifles been hiding in my safe
biggrin.gif

or slung over my shoulder in Colorado or northern Wyoming or northern CALIFORNIA.
where Ive used it to hunt mule deer on a few dozen trips
I think he will be also impressed with the BROWNING BLR in 450 marlin.

https://www.speer.com/bullets/rifle_...t/19-2453.html
now to be fair Bill only owns a couple AR15 rifles and hes just now getting into hunting deer,
so he asked me what rifle I like to use,
when I sneek around in the rough back canyon,
country and asked if he could try it out?
I also pointed out that theres hundreds of other rifles and calibers,
that can shoot similar groups ,
but with that silly grin
,he almost had me believe he felt like he just discovered SEX or something!
 
Last edited:
So I guess a Winchester model 1892 is out of the question?
You and the little woman can play out “The Riffleman.” (You can be Chuck Conner)

87060614-61CF-40FB-A1B7-7E121DE44901.jpeg
 
looks like the marlin lever gun clones made by RUGER are FAR BETTER QUALITY
then the remington marlin CLONES

 
Last edited:

the video above shows why I prefer the 405-540 grain,
hard cast
gas check bullets in the 458 caliber rifles.
properly loaded they shoot completely through elk and exit ,
leaving a good blood trail and significant internal damage,

even if bones are smashed
hollow points work fine on deer ,& hogs
but the hard cast works on anything you hunt


 
Last edited:
Back
Top