Engine Build ! Grumpy please Help??

G

GTc4

Member
85 vette winter build coming up need some advise?

L89 stock engine, want to add just a little umph to it!

I am going to run the TPI setup but upgrade to 52 mm Throttle Body... Going to be a street cruiser..got to run on pump gas.. already has high flow CAT and Corsa exhaust...

I figure and good cam, head, header setup should net me around 300hp or so? How far off am I on these estimates??

1. what heads?
2. what cam?
3. what headers?

THANKS in advance Grumpy!!
 
GTc4 said:
85 vette winter build coming up need some advise?

L89 stock engine, want to add just a little umph to it!
irtemp.jpg

http://www.professionalequipment.com/ex ... ermometer/
Wide temperature range from -58 to 1832°F (-50 to 1000°C)
any time that your dealing with a potential temperature issue or a trouble issue where , knowing the exact temperature vs what a gauge might say, it helps to have a handy and accurate infrared temp gun handy to locate and confirm heat, levels.
I am going to run the TPI setup but upgrade to 52 mm Throttle Body... Going to be a street cruiser..got to run on pump gas.. already has high flow CAT and Corsa exhaust...

I figure and good cam, head, header setup should net me around 300hp or so? How far off am I on these estimates??

1. what heads?
2. what cam?
3. what headers?

THANKS in advance Grumpy!!
Click to expand...


whats your BUDGET and are you going to do the mechanical work yourself or farm it out and have to pay for it?
IS the car a manual or auto transmission and do you need to pass emission testing?
theres a good many options, from just minor port work on your current intake and heads and possibility swapping to a more performance style cam design , to basically building an impressive engine from scratch ,using the better parts available, but youll need to make choices, some choices would require a few other mods along with what you listed

READ THRU THESE LINKS AND SUB LINKS

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1509&p=9917&hilit=+just+restrictive+base#p9917

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=433&p=37683#p37683

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=4378

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=10529

http://www.airflowresearch.com/articles ... 5/A-P1.htm

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3814&p=10131#p10131

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=8610&p=30272#p30272

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1231&p=2612#p2612
 
Last edited by a moderator:
car is a manual 4+3, no emissions testing unless OBAMA forces that on me also!

will be doing as much as possible myself, except for the machine work good local shop.

haven't put budget together looking at options before deciding which route to take!

Thanks for reply!
 
IF I was told to build a killer TPI style engine , on a really almost unlimited budget that almost none of us have access too...Im sure I could get very impressive results.
but Id also point out that before you start you might want to step back and look at the true goal, and look at your options, because you sure can build a killer SBC based on a TPI engine design, but the other options might produce more horse power, but its not going to be dirt cheap, so first lets look at a killer TPI combo

Ok that being said, and if you still want to proceed Id start with upgrading the intake rather than porting the current intake or swapping runners etc.
this will allow you to provide the engine with a significantly larger air flow rate than you could get otherwise, thus increasing power, but ID also swap to a 3.73:1 rear gear ratio, so that I could effectively use a cam with the lift and duration to allow the heads and intake to breath efficiently
crower00471.jpg

and decent 1.6:1 ratio roller rockers
crn-10759-16_w.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-1 ... /overview/
Id select a 406-or-427 SBC short block from ohio crank using a dart block
http://www.ohiocrank.com/chev_sb_shortb.html
heres a high flow tpi intake...that easily out flows the stock TPI keep in mind youll need new 42 lb rated injectors to feed all the new horse power
http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm
PDRM1966a.jpg

Youll need better cylinder heads to use that increased air flow , once you get the better intake cam, and larger displacement engine
http://www.profilerperformance.com/raci ... -23-degree
profhd2.png

OR
http://www.jegs.com/p/AFR-Airflow-Resea ... 0/10002/-1

http://www.hrpworld.com/store/default/s ... d+Race+Pan
youll want a 7 quart baffled oil pan that fits your corvette.
building something like that should result in an engine with easily double your stock engines power...
but mentally stepping back, taking a deep breath, and taking the time to do some research and price out your options at this point is the best thing you can do rather than jumping blindly into spending cash or just assuming your only route is to go with a TPI based engine.......personally i think the big block engine swaps got a good deal going for it

RELATED INFO

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=430

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=9879&p=37710&hilit=first+intake#p37710

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=333&hilit=first+intake

http://www.airflowresearch.com/articles ... 5/A-P1.htm

http://www.airflowresearch.com/articles ... 1/A-P1.htm

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=433&p=37683&hilit=first+intake#p37683

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1052&p=37166&hilit=first+intake#p37166

http://xtremecarzone.com.au/index.php?showtopic=386
 
http://www.superchevyperformance.com/19 ... 244552.htm
ls1a.png

ls1b.png


YOU HAVE OPTIONS, for the same approximate $8-$9 K, plus the additional things , that are advisable or required like, blow proof bell housings, a 3.73:1 rear gear better brakes etc., sop don,t just jump into a project with out thinking about the different routes you might choose to get the 500 plus hp you might want.... personally having built, or helped other guys build easily a couple dozen kick butt TPI corvette engines I think the realistic options are to either build a 383 sbc out of your current 350 or go with a big block or ls1 swap

502cr1.png

502cr2.png


yelvt2.jpg

yelvt1.jpg

RELATED INFO
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=151

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=6

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=886

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viewtopic.php?f=45&t=8610&p=30272#p30272

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=266&p=35948#p35948
 
OK there is the high dollar build now to use my block and build a budget build?

I can do most all the work, with minimum help! Lets look at something along the lines of 300-325 HP and 400-425 Ft Lbs of torque??

I am thinking a Holley intake and runners or First setup, 383 Stroker Assembly, work my heads with larger intake exhaust valves or set of heads,Cam--need help here want to run pump gas and keep my cruise ability (I guess what I'm saying not loose my "MPG" which by the way is around 28ish at 70 MPH w/cruise set), and finally a good set of headers that fit back like my manifolds do, ??aren't those called short tube headers??

Am I close here or am I just an Idiot?
 
sure theres other options. lets look at rock bottom basics
and yes you can pocket port, and clean up your existing cylinder heads,
yes the stock block can be used or modified with a 383 stroker kit,or left as a 350, but at a minimum you might want to get new rings and bearings, and gaskets
yes you can get a bit better head and intake flow, with careful pocket porting ,those existing heads and getting a 3 angle valve job, and better springs that allow a .600 lift so the heads flow better than they have from the factory,
and use a flat tappet cam and significantly reduce the expense.
crane10005.png

a mild cam like this could be used with the new valve springs and 1.6:1 roller rockers
heres a bit of info on porting the stock TPI

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=462&hilit=porting+help

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=433&p=37683#p37683

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=8596&p=30222&hilit=porting+help#p30222

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ep63uc-9MZs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f8YNfomKp3o

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vju-jOCrhzs

related info
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=5078

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=126&hilit=ratio+roller+rockers

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=266&p=35948#p35948

buying a 383 short block may be cheaper than rebuilding your current engine and has 4 bolt main caps unlike the factory 1985 corvette engines two bolt block
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hpe-sp15/overview/

http://www.dougherbert.com/index.php?ma ... s_id=38066


READ THRU THESE
http://xtremecarzone.com.au/STORAGE/ART ... ptions.pdf

Id say one of the most common mistakes I see is guys make when trying to build a 500 hp plus TPI based corvette engine,is those who scrimp , ignore the math, and don,t bother to think thru ther engines requirements,and think the stock injectors will work, resulting in a engine running lean in the upper rpms when the stock injectors max out who then come around with that CLUELESS look, and say something brilliant like "well it idled and ran darn nice until the first time I really stuck my foot to the floor and held it there!"

if thats your plan, buy the 42 lb injectors, or what ever size the calculator suggests plus a bit larger just as a hedge for safety, before you burn up some rings etc. a properly tuned MPFI engine will have the pulse duration, of the injectors match the sensors suggested air flow rates,and it can only do that up to the point the injectors operating at about 80%-85% of its flow capacity on the upper end of the flow rates , but can easily drop flow down to only a 30% duration if thats required, yes youll find guys that say they installed 30lb or 36 lb injectors and it ran like crap1 youll also find they don,t know how to tune injection themselves after asking more detailed questions

RELATED INFO
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1200&p=31258&hilit=calculate+injector#p31258

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=546&p=32516&hilit=58mm#p32516

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=641&p=26207&hilit=58mm#p26207
 
With overdrive gears in the 4+3 trans pulling 20 + Mpg won't be a problem.
Rear gearing chosen to limit 60 mph Rpm's to 2400 or less would work best for fuel economy.

383 sbc a decent choice to meet your needs GTC4.

You need a way to tune your new engine combo if sticking with EFI.
Best to tune yourself.
Mail order tunes never right on the 1st time.
May take 5 to 20 burnt Eproms mail order way.
 
I favor the Trickflow 195 cc intake runner heads myself GTC4.
OR BRODIX 180CC - 200CC.
Both Topnotch performing heads out of the box.
Maintain High velocity & respectible flow numbers.

Or try a set of Profiler heads as Grumpy shown recommends.


Stock 1985 iron heads are not worth putting $ into.
Decks are thin &'prone to cracking under high performance use.


Only time I would use factory iron heads was if I eas building a Pontiac Ram Air 400 R
 
The only time I would use factory iron heads was if I was building a Pontiac 400-455 with Ram Air 4 heads. SD455,
Olds 425 -455.
1963 Corvette 327.
427-454 BBC.
429-460 FORD.
MOPAR 383, 440, 426 HEMI
BOSS 302- BOSS 351.
4V FORD CLEVELAND.

1984-1985 Corvette iron heads don't fall into same catagory as performance factory iron headed engines listed above.

Brian
 
Thanks Brian for your input and you also Grumpy!!
Hope circumstances allow all of us to get together for the C4 days at the Corvette Museum at Bowling Green this coming year?

Looking at all the choices and putting them on paper to see where finances allow me to go with this. Want to do a higher HP build but may have to go back low budget just not sure yet will decide in next few weeks!
The car is running great as is just has a small smoke issue from what I can figure is a cracked ring on one possibly two cylinders from previous owners not correcting a problem which was explained to them and they neglected telling me so the hunt for the issue started and thanks to Brian he found it for me!!

Again Brian much respect for your coming so far on a weekend to help a total stranger in a situation very grateful for the help!! Hope some day may be able to repay the generous gesture!!!
 
find a realistic budget and we will see what can be accomplished, but I can assure you a great deal will depend on the intake heads and cam selected, and those components obviously must be selected to match the cars gearing, displacement and compression thankfully you have a manual trans which makes choosing the cam have a bit more choices.
I can post info on previous builds and I can assure you making those choices has a huge effect on the final results.
example these four components would go a long way to waking up a c4 corvette, but remember larger injectors in the 32 lb range and a 3.73:1 rear gear would help make those mods even better


HEADS
http://www.jegs.com/i/Brodix/158/102100 ... tId=760699
CAM
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=23967

INTAKE
PDRM1966a.jpg

http://www.firstfuelinjection.com/products.htm

OIL PAN
http://pitstopusa.com/i-5069643-canton- ... stick.html
 
Moates APU1 & OSTRICH 2 EMULATOR.
The later I own & have hooked up to my 87 C4 Vette.
I am not a strong or super experienced EFI tuner.
There are maybe 50 guys in the USA that are true pros at it.
Even less with the 1984-85 Corvette & Firebird Camaro.
These guys don't like to give out info or tell the truth often.
They want to get paid . Some $500+.
You may get a Super nice tune.
Or you may get ripped off & blown up Vette engine.
A dark secret truth in the C4 Corvette world.
They tend to hang together on the forums.
Very tight knit group .
Grumpy knows exact what I am talking about.
I know of only 1 EFI Tuner I would trust writi.ng a base program for an early C4 TPI Corvette that's modified.
Dave is super ecentric. Sharp. Super smart. Horrible temper.
He likes me from the old Corvette forum days.
Because I am a rebel like him.
Dave was head engine gut during the 1987-1991 Corvette Twin Turbo Callaway
 
I haven't talked to Dave in a while.
He is around still I am sure.
Likes tuning multi million dollar race cars.
 
GTc4 ?
have you got any idea as to your budget or horse power goals yet? A PROPERLY BUILT ENGINE AND DRIVE TRAIN CAN BE A JOY TO DRIVE JUST AS A MIS-MATCHED COMBO CAN RESULT IN A p.i.t.a. TO PUT UP WITH. SO THINKING IT THRU FROM START TO FINISH BEFORE YOU START IS THE SMART ROUTE TO TAKE, BUT MOST GUYS JUST SEEM TO RANDOMLY ACQUIRE AND INSTALL PARTS AND WONDER WHY IT NEVER RUNS RIGHT
honestly these several ways to go here at most price levels and you can make improvements in steps as the budget allows, in most cases as long as you carefully plan the order in which parts, are purchased and installed and mods are done, the key is having a well thought thru list of mods and a set goal rather than randomly buying and installing parts.
but I would again point out the heads, intake and cam selected are key to reaching higher power levels and swapping the rear gear ratio to a 3.45:1-3.73:1 performance gearing can make the choices work far better or leaving the stock 3.07 a bit worse than they might perform other wise, Id also point out that many guys fail to think thru the smaller but mandatory improvements required like larger injectors to feed the increased air flow rates or a low restriction exhaust thats required to handle the increased exhaust volume, a much more powerful engine will necessarily produce.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1200&p=31258&hilit=calculate+injector#p31258

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=495

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=3155

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=1730

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=91

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1509
 
I had a chance to turn wrenches side by side with GTC4 Grumpy.
He knows his way around performance cars pretty well.
He has owned several fast Camaros in the past.
Street raced like me.
We are both concerned with the USA Economy.
Blama care kicks in soon.
USA will go down the toliet fast.
Obama has a mission. Kill us all.

To build his engine & Vette right $5-8k required.

Cheap way out is pull his engine out & teardown.
Inspect all. Rebuild it.
Or find another engine.
 
this would all be SO MUCH easier if about a dozen of you gentlemen , who actually show both interest in and skill at, working on cars, were all located in my local area, I.m sure we could spend a great deal of time working on each others projects like I did with my friends when I was in my 20s-40s before many of them got married, changed jobs, or lost interest in performance cars,or in a few cases moved out of state, or DIED! ETC.
its rather frustrating having the knowledge and tools and knowing both how to do something and wanting to help out yet not having access allowing us to help each other, especially while reading these threads, and in the back of your mind you see and say to yourself (HELL, IV'E BEEN THERE, DONE THAT , AND KNOW WHATS CAUSING IT!) plus it would be so much nicer if we all had access to each others skill sets and some help on our personal projects.
AT one time I had about 6-8 guys locally that could not wait to get off work and spend time working on each others cars, but guys move away, loose interest, move out of state etc. and eventually I find that theres few guys who are interested in cars?...OH! theres always guys wanting to have me repair their cars for next to nothing, but darn few willing to work on anyone else' s car or trade skills to do work in exchange for other work like was very common with my older friends, I know I did plenty of engine repairs or brake jobs for upholstery or paint work in the past
 

I think you have a bathroom in your shop, so the questions is how many cots and
cars can we park inside all at once. Oh .... could you install a kitchen also,
we don't won't to waste time going out for grub. :p

 
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