Engine oil fowling spark plugs

[grumpyvette]

intake runners look oily?

Hello Grumpy, I Removed intake manifold looking for my high oil use(1qt per 1000mile). Found all intake runners with oil and all intake valves with oily goo on top of the valves and in the pockets. Some worse than others. My question is once I address the gasket sealing issue will the oily deposits get flushed out with normal driving or do I need to clean the goo out now before installing manifold .

ID clean as much as I could before re-assembly but the normal flow of fuel mist and air will clean much of it,if its not being constantly sucked in and replaced thru the leaking intake gasket,from the lifter gallery, now be aware that if your valve guides or valve seals are worn or the cam you have has a good deal of overlap, the reversion pulses tend to leave an oily soot in the intake runners, not goo! but a dark slightly oily soot....goo is usually the result of bad rings, or bad valve seal,or a leaky intake gasket, IF it didn,t come from a bad intake too head seal. if you've had the block or heads milled the angle might be slightly non-standard and that can cause the intake gasket to leak...until that's corrected or a thicker intake gaskets used

a good example for the oil sludge build-up on the back of an intake valve that results from bad valve seals and loose valve guide clearances

 

[restoman]

I have two literally identical stock Big Block Chevy engines that have developed the exact same problem. One is an engine( engine # 1 ) that ran for many years fine ( has about 35000 miles on it. The second one ( engine # 2 was just recently freshened up ( less thaan 500 miles on it ) with new new cam, lifters, piston rings ( honed first ), valve job.
Both engines burn a lot of oil now. About a quart every 400 to 500 miles.
There is one thing in common with both engines: Both have had a large amount of time idling with minimal road time ( driving time on them in the last 3 years ). Both engines have mostly been pulled in and out of the garage with minimal warmup time a lot. When they were driven it was usually less than 6 to 10 miles.
Amazingly you cannot see blue smoke out the tail pipe. All spark plugs oil fowl evenly.
I have removed the PCV Valve and installed a breather cap on each valve cover to eliminate the possibility of the engine sucking oil thru the PCV Valve and stock valve cover.
Does anyone have any thoughts as to what could be the problem and a resolution ?

 

[grumpyvette]

this is fairly common, the first step is trying to determine the source of the oil in the combustion chambers,
obviously the potential sources are
a leaking intake gasket sucking oil from the lifter gallery
worn valve guides and or valve seals
or bad or worn rings
or detonation damage on the pistons
a leak down test will help locate the source.
Id also suggest you post clear pictures of your spark plugs and verify your ignition advance curve."

btw a quick check that will help but not 100% prove or can be used to find out if the rings or valve train is the source of the oil, is have a buddy follow your car and accelerate hard with the throttle wide open,then let the engine slow you down by jumping off the gas, if its rings it tends to smoke more on hard acceleration when theres more cylinder pressure, if it smokes more on DE-acceleration as the engine slows the car its frequently high vacuum sucking oil thru the valve guides[/color]

http://www.compcams.com/Company/CC/cam- ... id=87&sb=2

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[mathd]

if it was valve guide/seals wouldnt it do it only on 1 cylinder and not all?.
Intake gasket sounds like its the problem, didnt think about this one when i read it earlier today.

 

[grumpyvette]

all the valve guides and valve seals tend to wear at a similar rate, but Ive seen lots of engines with the wrong or defective valve seals or guys that installed cams without the proper valve seals clearance that have had valve seals fail rapidly, its very common for guys to install a higher lift cam and forget to verify the correct valve train clearances.
If the lower retainer contacts the valve seal at full lift it will quickly accelerate the valve seal wear

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4891&p=24722&hilit=worn+valve+seals#p24722

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=19781&hilit=worn+valve+seals#p19781

 

[restoman]

Thanks all for the detailed and quick response. It will take me a while as I have many things going on BUT I will post and bring results and pictures from the info you provided me. One quick question though. Would having the engine idle a lot and having not got it fully warmed up enough have caused any ( or any significant ) damage ? I have noticed several times when I changed the oil a gasoline smell to the oil.

 

[grumpyvette]

what your describing is possible, but not all that common, if your carb or injectors run exceptionally rich, or flood the cylinder with fuel, you wash the rings with fuel and they loose a good deal of lubrication resulting in rapid wear, and yes the oil will smell like fuel, and usually feel thinner,its not that common, but it is a possibility, but in most cases you'll notice black smoke from ether exhaust and wet spark plugs long before the rings get damaged, of course letting the condition remain for weeks will result in damage to ring seal.
don,t forget a defective and internally leaking manual fuel pump can also be a source of fuel in the oil.

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[mathd]

all the valve guides and valve seals tend to wear at a similar rate, but Ive seen lots of engines with the wrong or defective valve seals or guys that installed cams without the proper valve seals clearance that have had valve seals fail rapidly, its very common for guys to install a higher lift cam and forget to verify the correct valve train clearances.
If the lower retainer contacts the valve seal at full lift it will quickly accelerate the valve seal wear

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viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=19781&hilit=worn+valve+seals#p19781

ahh thats make lots more sense to me when put this way

 

[restoman]

Well thats interesting info about the possibility of ring damage from lots of idling and rich running washing the rings free of oil too much. It sounds like I may have very well done just that as this has been going on for much much much longer than a few weeks. I have only rarely ever seen any black smoke from too rich of a mixture ( except when it starts running bad because the plugs are oil fowled and mis firing ). I have only ran it a very short time after I have seen black smoke ( minutes ) before the plugs get changed.

Just for everyones info: A year or so ago I did follow everyones advice about the Intake Manifold perhaps leaking near the lower sealing area above the hyd lifter valley. I did remove the manifold, inspect the gasket and did not detect anything that showed oil getting past the gasket seal at that point. I did reinstall the Intake with a new Felpro gasket. I still had the same identical problem. Is there any special test or observation I missed doing this ( intake manifold gasket inspection ) operation ?

 

[Grumpy]

A couple days ago BOB, purchased a project car,for a damn good discounted price , that a guy where he works had built, and had stored in his home garage for decades.
Its a 1967 ford fairlane with what is supposedly a 460 ford engine swap,
the problem, is that the enine was supposedly rebuilt only about a month ago,
and the previous owner got totally fed up and sold the car after finding that the newly rebuilt engines "RINGS NEVER SEATED"
Now Ive heard similar stories for decades, and I know dozens of guys who got really frustrated with the projects they had and now DEEPLY regret selling the cars, so if you do have a project and run into problems go have a couple cups of coffee and ask for help! think things throught! don,t do what most of us did or know people who did something STUPID in a moment of frustration, and sell your car like this guy did!
Bob is not even that much of a car guy, but he recognized a bargain and grabbed it before the guy changed his mind!
Now without doing a few tests like a compression test, and more than likely a pull down and careful visual inspection, we pulled the intake manifold and looked down into the intake ports and its recently had the heads rebuilt and theres no trace of worn valve seals or oil leaking through the valve guides, the engine burns oil like a mosquitoe spray truck and Id strongly suspect by the symtoms that the rings were either improperly installed or the piston to wall clearance is excessive , but further inspection will be required.
I pulled these pictures off the internet, of a similar car,because I know many younger chevy guys have no clue that
FORD AND DODGE,PLYMOUTH,PONTIAC,AND BUICK,
even made fast car that looked good in the past.
but BOBS is a faded BURGANDY and the interiors in need of replacement but for the $3K he spent on a strait car that "runs and drives and doesn,t need body work it was a screaming bargain even if the engine is in need of a total rebuild

I know a good percentage of guys reading the thread will fail to read through the links and sub links UNLESS they PERSONALLY find a similar related problem, thats really a damn shame, simply because if in many cases they had taken the effort before assembling something in-correctly they might have avoided spending the time and extra effort and expense to solve an easily avoided mistake that they are only now trying to fix.
Im betting we will need to remove and dissassemble the engine for a detailed inspection , but I,m fairly sure we will find a mistake in the piston to bore clearance, the rings being installed or the bore hone or some related problem as its obvious the oils getting past the rings currently
RELATED LINKS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-and-basic-piston-ring-info-youll-need.509/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/maximizing-piston-to-bore-ring-seal.3897/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/piston-ring-compressors.55/#post-1727

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-52469

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-and-installing-connecting-rods-pistons.247/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/installing-rings-in-piston-grooves.9490/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/piston-to-bore-clearance.4630/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-piston-ring-grooves-and-related-info.1797/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...roove-depth-clearance-effects-ring-seal.5454/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ring-gaps-on-pistons-moved.4602/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/piston-rings-related-info.2795/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/measuring-piston-skirt-clearance.1795/

 

[Grumpy]

well, I got a phone call, it appears the rings were installed in a rather random order from what Bob says so far, hes found 5 compression rings installed with the wrong side facing up or a top ring in the second ring groove, and the oil rings don,t seem to have as much outward tension as he seems to feel they should have.
More than likey the previous owner installed standard rings in a slightly over sized bore, Ill need to measure when I get a chance
luckly rebuild kits are fairly easy to come by, hopefully the bore in the block and pistons are re-useable
http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/engine-rebuild-kits/make/ford/engine-size/7-5l-460

https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/04/460Build/

https://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/04/460Build/index2.php

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/06/460Build/

http://www.fordmuscle.com/archives/2004/09/460Build/