first hotrod build

Discussion in 'general muscle car related info' started by hotrod coupe, Oct 26, 2016.

  1. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    I got my model a and will be logging the changes done to make it into what I like. What I have is a stock top highboy on 32 rails, cycle front and widened rear fenders, gm 350 crate motor with 600 performer carb/ weiand 8004 manifold/ shorty block hugger headers, th 350 trans with possibly a stock converter, and a 7.5 ford live rear axle. I have no idea on the history of parts or build by previous owner. The brake system did not inspire confidence. Manual brakes, 1 1/8 master, no proportioning valve for disc/drum, no residual valves master cylinder under floor. Brakes were stiff, took to local shop and work properly now. my goal is to have a fun ride with enough power with decent gas mileage. Probably will never see a strip unless it was at a rod meet so not worried about et numbers. I have been reading a lot to figure out what my goal is. A low to midrange torque engine seems to fit my needs. I have not made any decision on transmission, man/auto standard/ od and what will fit without major modifications to floor and frame. The rear end will need to go, any type posi upgrade costs more than an 8.8 with a posi. So for the engine here is what I have come up with, your thoughts on where I am going wrong or right would be appreciated. vortec heads if good [pulling from Yukon now] if not summit 62cc aluminum 170 intake[sure they're trickflow], gm ls6 beehive springs, arp head bolt set, roller rockers 1.6 [I realize they're not really needed], lunati streetmaster cam & lifters 225@050/275 advertised 477 lift 1.5, k&n velocity stack air cleaner, mellings155 hv oil pump, I have almost no oil pressure at idle and 20 psi max. I will post my progress as I slowly proceed.
     
    NOT A TA likes this.
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    welcome to the web site!
    as usual pictures would be helpful, here!
    with that low of oil pressure Id suggest a careful dis-assembly ,and obviously careful, inspection and,
    a good deal of thought going into what your trying to build while keeping the cost factor reasonable,
    at a minimum it looks like you'll need new rings and bearings and a gasket set,

    if you continue to run the engine with that low oil pressure it may self destruct making a rebuild impossible,
    but without a tear down and inspection your simply guessing at this point!
    Id measure the rear differential width and look in a local salvage yard for. a decent rear differential of similar width,
    with disc brakes out of some late model dodge,chevy or ford pick-up truck, VAN, or large luxury car, so your car has improved braking

    don,t get over whelmed, make a list and test adjust correct or replace each problem,
    and check it off the list then move to the next issue,
    its a finite list and theres not a damn thing on it you can,t accomplish,
    with a bit of research, a few questions and this web-sites help
    (a few tools the right attitude and a thick stack of cash would also be useful of course):D:rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: May 17, 2018 at 8:55 AM
  3. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    will work on pictures and posts, computers aint my thing & a lot more difficult than reading information. Why gm would put a 20 pound pressure spring in their crate motors I don't understand but that's the specs from them, 8.5 compression, barely chirps the tire. I was hoping to do the engine work while in the car, low idle pressure worried me and I was afraid a teardown would be needed. I ran a vacuum check and besides a bit low on idle everything checked normal. engine seems quite low on power and barely chirps the tire on takeoff. Going down to get more pics.
     
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    G.M. has never installed a 20lb oil pressure relief bye-pass spring,
    your oil pump may be defective, but thats rare,
    its more likely the oil pump pick-ups is loose,or fell off,
    or the oil pump retention bolt is loose,
    or a bearing or two are overly well worn,
    allowing major clearance and that reduces resistance to flow,
    as a result lower pressure,
    only careful inspection after the engines oil pans removed and oil pump dis-assembly will prove the cause.
    BTW where are you located, there might be other members of the web site near you that may be willing to help
    read these thread's

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...l-pumps-pressure-bye-pass-circuit-works.3536/


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/basic-info-on-your-v8-lube-system.52/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-rabbit-hole-with-alice.10933/#post-52567

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ear-axles-and-differentials.11848/#post-56202

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...par-9-1-4-rear-differential.11490/#post-52942
     
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2017
  5. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    related threads youll use during a engine build
    KNOWLEGE AND RESEARCH IS A HUGE PART OF SUCCESS
    a couple hours reading could save you a great deal of time and cash.
    have you ever taken the time, and effort,
    too step back and grab a legal pad and pen, and logically make a reasonably complete list of the parts you,ll need,
    and do the research required too list every part, (including all the small components like bolts, bearings gaskets) and their current cost, where you can find those components for sale, and part number, brand and supplier, and the phone numbers etc.
    and call a local machine shop to get a better idea as to the labor cost of a project your looking into starting?
    once you do theres commonly three things youll face,
    the first is generally a sense of being over whelmed and depressed at the un-expected,total projected cost!
    the second is a very common and strong temptation to either scrap the whole idea or to start substituting cheaper and generally considerably lower quality components that in the long run will eventually make the completed project either not worth owning and certainly something your less than proud to own.
    and the third is the strong tendency to purchase parts that you find for bargain priced that either are not well matched to the intended projects goals, or nearly useless when matched to the project goals, but the bargain price seems nearly impossible to pass on.

    all these tendency's result in a great many partly complete or abandoned projects, or projects that don,t resemble anything close to the original intent, or projects that never get started in the first place.
    the completion of a well designed project will take some detailed planing and the ability to stick with the original projects part list and goals, and doing your research in detail, as to both the parts and machine shop costs, the time required and in many cases the tools that you might need,and of course youll need a place to work and store the project while its being built or repaired, well before you start buying components


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bits-of-383-info.38/page-2#post-61958

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/block-prep.125/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...c-piston-ring-info-youll-need.509/#post-39781

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/picking-a-cam-for-street-strip-496-bbc.13384/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...k-after-a-cam-lobe-rod-or-bearings-fail.2919/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/why-build-a-383-vs-a-350.715/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ting-started-in-the-car-hobby.339/#post-60187

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...on-building-a-383-sbc-stroker.428/#post-57879

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/finding-a-machine-shop.321/#post-55314

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/crate-or-build.11257/#post-50889

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...y-in-building-a-good-engine.11682/#post-54682

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/383-information-overload.11137/#post-49864

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-52466

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bare-minimum-tools.11026/#post-51843

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-51341

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-calculators-and-basic-math.10705/#post-46737

    start by buying these books and watching the video
    v
    you really should get these books and read them before going any further, it will help a good deal


    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/A...5079777/sr=2-1/ref=sr_2_1/102-1234339-0571324

    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...gy_img_2/102-1234339-0571324?v=glance&s=books

    [​IMG]

    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...gy_img_2/102-1234339-0571324?v=glance&s=books

    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_1/102-1234339-0571324?v=glance&s=books

    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t..._books_3/102-1234339-0571324?v=glance&s=books
    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/t...f=sr_1_2/102-1234339-0571324?v=glance&s=books
    [​IMG]

    INVESTING THE TIME AND EFFORT IN PURCHASING AND READING A FEW BOOKS WILL BE VERY COST EFFECTIVE
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    http://www.dragzine.com/tech-stories/en ... ine-block/
    "

    SMALL BLOCK REFERENCE BOOKS YOULL WANT
    start by buying these books and watching the video

    http://www.themotorbookstore.com/resmchstvi.html
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/David-Vizards...8&qid=1456194032&sr=8-5&keywords=DAVID+VIZARD
    HOW TO BUILD MAX PERFORMANCE CHEVY SMALL BLOCKS ON A BUDGET by DAVID VIZARD
    .
    [​IMG]
    JOHN LINGENFELTER on modifying small-block chevy engines
    http://www.amazon.com/Lingenfelter-...=1456193940&sr=8-1&keywords=JOHN+LINGENFELTER

    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/Smokey-Yunick...2&sr=8-1&keywords=smokey+yunick+power+secrets


    [​IMG]
    http://www.amazon.com/Chevrolet-Rac...ords=The-Chevrolet-Racing-Engine-Bill-Jenkins
     
    Last edited: Aug 8, 2017
  6. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    I am about an hour north of St. Louis Mo. Being computer illiterate I cannot figure out how to get my cell phone pics on here. Cannot find the spec sheet that I thought said 20# oil pressure but never sounded right to me, maybe typo or I misread. As I have said this is all new to me, if a compression test reads good could dropping the pan and giving a good look see if I don't need to pull engine?
     
  7. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    dropping the pan and potentially either inspecting and repairing, or maybe replacing the oil pump , and its pick-up seems like a good idea,

    [​IMG]
    notice its right where the roller cams lobe design maximized the extra air flow potential that is the most effective flow area during the whole valve flow curve
    and yes it frequently helps to match a roller cam to roller rockers as the reduced friction further helps the engines durability and ability to easily cope with faster valve train component acceleration, that tends to reduce heat and wear.
    The following equation mathematically defines the available flow area for any given valve diameter and lift value:
    Area = valve diameter x 0.98 x 3.14 x valve lift
    Where 3.14 = pi (π)
    For a typical 2.02-inch intake valve at .500-inch lift, it calculates as follows:
    Area = 2.02 x 0.98 x 3.14 x 0.500 = 3.107 square inches, thus it makes a great deal of sense to push the valve lift a bit over .500, and have an intake port that is at least 3.2 square inches in cross sectional area, if you want to maximize flow on a 2.02" intake valve

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-extra-cost-vs-a-flat-tappet-design.3802/

    Last edited: Today at 2:10 PM


    ID also suggest you read these two thread's carefully

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/installing-an-oil-pump-pick-up-tube.1800/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...m-oil-pump-installed-now-no-oil-pressure.525/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-mods-that-help.2187/#post-7231

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bearings-and-oil-flow.150/#post-68206

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ed-holes-in-bearings-shells.10750/#post-64733

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...es-engine-builders-magazine.11965/#post-57052

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...te-filter-require-a-new-pump.3144/#post-16458

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...l-cooler-increases-durability.176/#post-12473

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...essure-bye-pass-circuit-works.3536/#post-9379

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/oil-system-basics.615/#post-1731

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/engine-oil-temps.296/#post-361

    an oil pump pick-up thats mounted too close too the oil pan floor would easily cause the oil pressure to max out much lower due to having the input flow restricted
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2018
  8. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    Oil pressure is higher when cold than after it has warmed op and ran for a half hour or more. I also have a ground clearance issue living at the end of a mile and a half private gravel road, several people have lost oil pans on it. My thoughts were to use a moroso 21317 7 quart steel 7.5 depth pan w/windage tray, afraid aluminum would break easier if I bottom out.
     
  9. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    Oil pressure is about 15 pounds cold at idle after about a half hour running it drops to negligible reading on dash gauge. Need time to do compression check, manual oil pressure check. running a farm plus a hour each way to my job doesn't leave a whole lot of time. considering moroso 7 quart 7.5 depth oil pan w/windage tray. our private rock road has eaten serveral oil pans so ground clearance is important.
     
  10. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    Cold oil is harder to move making more pressure. Oil pans check out kevko pans heard good things about them in my research. I will be replacing my finned aluminum that looks good but gives no performance. Measure up your clearances first and make sure what you buy will fit. Grumpy has a ton of links he just put on my build page a few days ago. Might wanna put on a teather before getting close to that rabbit hole.
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2016
  11. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

  12. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    just did a cold leak down test on cylinders 1,3,&5 45,45,60% this doesn't look good to me.
     
  13. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    your correct it should be no more than a 10% loss.
     
  14. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    would like to know if I am close on this build. 2 bolt main vortec, arp main studs, goal is idle to 5500. 3.75 scat rotating assembly, 19cc dished pistons. hydraulic roller dv cam 278 advertised, 227@050 with a 106 lsa. 64cc chamber .015 gasket, .022 deck height. from Wallace racing calculators this gets a 9.63 static c/r 7.7 dynamic c/r dynamic crank pressure 152 and a v/p 136. reading a lot but still don't fully understand the last two,very conflicting reading. anyway I am wanting to run on 89 octane in said rpm range. input on where im off my goals would be appreciated.
     
  15. Strictly Attitude

    Strictly Attitude solid fixture here in the forum

    383 needs a 4 bolt block or the caps will walk. You have to remember the block you have was designed for a shorter throw and the larger inertia loads will give cap walk been down this road. Do you already have the block if so you could try the arp main studs an a girdle. This is where I had a tough decision to make on my build splayed caps won. Cam looks good as far right LSA. Which heads Vortec? Do not buy dish pistons you want reverse dome better quench. Scat 9000 crank is fine for this build low rpm torque. It depends on your heads whether I would use a split duration camshaft. As far as your head ideas as outlined in your first post if you go summit heads I would be looking at 190 to 200 runner for a 383. It is gonna push allot more air and needs to breath. If you are gonna run vortec do you plan to port them or just throw them on. This is mild build your car is light unless you are gonna unchoke the heads you might be better off make a little more rpm out of the 350 and using the money you would have on a rotating assembly to get a real nice set of heads. Willing to bet you would make more power. Freshen the bottom end if you are lucky you can get away with a hone job. ARP 195 Street Eliminator heads similar cam on a 108 and you will have a 400+ combo. Those heads will give you room if you decide you want to go 383 down the road but I feel after you drive it with those heads you won't need to unless you get bit by the I want more power bug really bad. I really feel you are gonna see a significant increase in power here. I cannot stress enough how much heads make a real difference. I ran those heads on a stock bottom end with an older crane solid flat grind and before my cam got eaten those heads come with springs good for a hydraulic roller. This is in a heavy chevelle no problems pulled strong from idle car at the time had 700r4 almost stock converter. Your car is light. With the AFRs you run a single pattern cause the exhaust flows well. The block huggers will promote that off idle and your manifold. I see you are really basing your set up off reusing those parts. Either way take the engine put it on a stand and crack it open get some proper measuring tools and find out what you have going on. If you want the best price on bearings or parts let me know I will give you my guys number or email he beat the lowest price I could find on online for all my parts. I would see where my cylinders are at I can crunch the numbers or Grumpy can also in dyno sim program to let you know what would be your best way to go. My .02

    Just remember it is your car you build it how you want just make educated decisions based on proven facts. Always check info make sure viable.

    Couple questions I just thought of is this the engine currently in the car or the one out of the Yukon while you leave the crate 350 in.
    Is the block a factory roller block does it currently have a factory roller cam?
    Is this gonna be along build time good parts or I want to be smoking tires by car show season?
    And how many links do think Grumpy will leave on how to break down and properly inspect a Block?
     
  16. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

  17. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    2 things to check on your engine first.
    You did not say what year, or if it has a hydraulic flat-tappet camshaft.
    Verify the oil pressure with a known good gauge, other than the dash gauge.
    Pull the valve covers and make sure ALL the rockers arms are moving their
    full amount and pumping oil. If not, then some of the camshaft lobes might now
    be round and all that shrapnel circulated through the engine - causing major damage.
    I hope not for your sake.
     
  18. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    Repeat the test with each piston at BOTTOM dead center. This will tell if the rings are still good, or if the bores are scratched/worn.
     
  19. hotrod coupe

    hotrod coupe Well-Known Member

    here is what's going on, engine is in a 1/2 ton 2000 Yukon and was slapping a rod badly enough to loose all oil pressure before towed to farm. I don't do cold. however I go, different stroke or block, arp will be used. I though that rpm was the problem not the stroke, will listen to experience. any rough guidelines for limits on a 2 bolt 350. I was planning to do a light port on the heads myself. how much difference does big valves in vortec heads make. considering using ls 6 beehive springs. brodex ik 180 heads are possible. how will aluminum heads handle outside the frame hiboy headers. basic dynamic c/r for 89 octane would be appreciated, cant seem to find it. just trying to do a proper build so down the rabbit hole, thanks
     
  20. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

Share This Page