Strictly Attitude
solid fixture here in the forum
I second the 210s
first hotrod build
- Thread starter hotrod coupe
- Start date
hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
I am wondering about the viability of a high rise dual plane manifold something like a tall tunnel ram, I am certain I am not the only person to think of this, is it unworkable or just unprofitable for mass production. considering fabricating one after I am through with this project if it is not a bad idea, you have the experience I just had a thought about it.
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A tunnel ram is a single plane manifold, not dual plane. If you just have to have a
tunnel ram, then you might consider the following, but a real dual plane may have
better performance for the street. Or let Grumpy guide you thru the tuning of a
real tunnel ram.
http://www.coloradohotrodparts.com/Real-Street-Ram-Kit-for-Small-Block-Chevy-RSR-001-CHEV.htm
tunnel ram, then you might consider the following, but a real dual plane may have
better performance for the street. Or let Grumpy guide you thru the tuning of a
real tunnel ram.
http://www.coloradohotrodparts.com/Real-Street-Ram-Kit-for-Small-Block-Chevy-RSR-001-CHEV.htm
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Strictly Attitude
solid fixture here in the forum
The edelbrock rpm air gap is pretty tall dual plane, hood clearance is an issue in allot of builds but I loved that intake.
hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
I have an open engine bay hood is removed, I was thinking of tall runners like a wieand tunnel ram only twist the runners just enough to make a true dual plane manifold divided plenum. have not seen anything like it but I am shure I am not the first to think about it.
you may want too mentally step back and ask yourself what the difference is in the design,s carb intakes must keep air speeds high to keep fuel droplets in the port suspended in the air flow column, turns in the port tend to restrict max potential air flow but keeping the air column moving at higher average port speeds promotes fairly even fuel distribution, as atomized fuel is held in suspension. by seperating the two plenums they effectively restrict the potential size of the area feeding that plenum so as each inlet valve connected to that plenum opens the effective rush of air trying to fill the cylinder as the piston drops and the exhaust gases, in the header primary from the previous firing cycle's , inertia trys to pull on the intake charge, is more pronounced.
and how and why one might be better or worse under different conditions,
and think through the potential of the two basic intake manifold designs.
keep in mind the reason they build dual plane (split plenum intakes)
is to promote a noticeably faster air flow rate in the intake runners,
in effect a dual plane, v8 intake manifold, intake has two 4 cylinder engines running , through it and each intake charge is desperately drawn from a smaller plenum volume , so that 750 cfm carb is effectively two 375 cfm two barrel carbs as far as the plenums sees air flow.
this is good for efficient air flow as it keeps air speeds high but tends to restrict total flow rates.
lets say you have a 383, , thats roughly 48 cubic inches of air flow volume, for each intake stroke, and, remember theres 720 degrees in the cycle and only about 240 of those degrees allow the intake runner to flow effectively, roughly 1/3rd of the time available, and at 6500 rpm thats an intake pulse every 54 times a second .
that tends to keep a higher percentage of the atomized fuel droplets in suspension
have you ever wondered why EFI intake designs tend to be single plane
while carburetors use dual plane designs for lower average engine speeds but carbs prefer single plane intake manifold designs for higher average engine speeds, or why a single plane intake design may work ok on an oval port BBC for average street strip high performance , use while a 302 -327 SBC with a high rise dual plane , may still perform rather well, even at high engine rpms compared to a single plane.
it helps if you understand that most INDIVIDUAL PORT INJECTION EFI intakes are single plane because a single plane intake design is the least restrictive and allows the most direct route for the air flow to enter the cylinders, and they don,t have to be concerned with fuel droplets falling out of the air flow as the injectors mist fuel in a cloud directly behind the inlet valve.
the tunnel ram is the most efficient single plane design for higher engine speeds as it allows a direct strait line path from carb base to the back of the inlet valve, but remember its properly timed EXHAUST SCAVENGING, displacement, cam timing and compression ratio and port cross sectional area, that has the most effect on intake runner flow rates
one reason a properly port matched tunnel ram intake flows efficiently is a strait path to the intake valve, in the cylinder head from the plenum
USE THE CALCULATORS, YOULL, QUICKLY FIND THE LIMITATIONS
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
reading through these links would be helpful
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/carb-intake-test.58/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/mechanical-constant-flow-injection.4502/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tuning-a-tunnel-ram-intake.5175/#post-67680
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculating-header-design.185/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculating-required-exhaust-pipe-size.11552/
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
useful RELATED INFO you might want to read
http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php
http://www.pontiacracing.net/js_header_length1.htm
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...-0902-chevy-engine-port-variations-measuring/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculating-ideal-port-size.624/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/
single stack injection with an individual injector per cylinder is the best potential intake design as it ,
if properly designed and correctly matched to the engine size,
cam timing and exhaust scavenging can provide over 100% cylinder fill efficiency ,over a narrow rpm band through inertial ram tuning.
intake runner stack length changes, and to some extent cam timing can be used to tune the torque peaks,
but cross sectional area of the runners , matching the cam timing events,
and having a properly tuned header to maximize exhaust scavenging of the cylinders,
and cylinder head ports cross sectional area and flow rates,
that match the intended flow rates and rpm range,
will dictate a great deal of the air flow speed and where the potential restriction too, or max effective power occurs.
and how and why one might be better or worse under different conditions,
and think through the potential of the two basic intake manifold designs.
keep in mind the reason they build dual plane (split plenum intakes)
is to promote a noticeably faster air flow rate in the intake runners,
in effect a dual plane, v8 intake manifold, intake has two 4 cylinder engines running , through it and each intake charge is desperately drawn from a smaller plenum volume , so that 750 cfm carb is effectively two 375 cfm two barrel carbs as far as the plenums sees air flow.
this is good for efficient air flow as it keeps air speeds high but tends to restrict total flow rates.
lets say you have a 383, , thats roughly 48 cubic inches of air flow volume, for each intake stroke, and, remember theres 720 degrees in the cycle and only about 240 of those degrees allow the intake runner to flow effectively, roughly 1/3rd of the time available, and at 6500 rpm thats an intake pulse every 54 times a second .
that tends to keep a higher percentage of the atomized fuel droplets in suspension
have you ever wondered why EFI intake designs tend to be single plane
while carburetors use dual plane designs for lower average engine speeds but carbs prefer single plane intake manifold designs for higher average engine speeds, or why a single plane intake design may work ok on an oval port BBC for average street strip high performance , use while a 302 -327 SBC with a high rise dual plane , may still perform rather well, even at high engine rpms compared to a single plane.
it helps if you understand that most INDIVIDUAL PORT INJECTION EFI intakes are single plane because a single plane intake design is the least restrictive and allows the most direct route for the air flow to enter the cylinders, and they don,t have to be concerned with fuel droplets falling out of the air flow as the injectors mist fuel in a cloud directly behind the inlet valve.
the tunnel ram is the most efficient single plane design for higher engine speeds as it allows a direct strait line path from carb base to the back of the inlet valve, but remember its properly timed EXHAUST SCAVENGING, displacement, cam timing and compression ratio and port cross sectional area, that has the most effect on intake runner flow rates
one reason a properly port matched tunnel ram intake flows efficiently is a strait path to the intake valve, in the cylinder head from the plenum
USE THE CALCULATORS, YOULL, QUICKLY FIND THE LIMITATIONS
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html
http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint.php
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
reading through these links would be helpful
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/carb-intake-test.58/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/mechanical-constant-flow-injection.4502/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tuning-a-tunnel-ram-intake.5175/#post-67680
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculating-header-design.185/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculating-required-exhaust-pipe-size.11552/
http://www.wallaceracing.com/header_length.php
useful RELATED INFO you might want to read
http://www.wallaceracing.com/runnertorquecalc.php
http://www.pontiacracing.net/js_header_length1.htm
http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...-0902-chevy-engine-port-variations-measuring/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/port-speeds-and-area.333/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculating-ideal-port-size.624/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/sellecting-cylinder-heads.796/
single stack injection with an individual injector per cylinder is the best potential intake design as it ,
if properly designed and correctly matched to the engine size,
cam timing and exhaust scavenging can provide over 100% cylinder fill efficiency ,over a narrow rpm band through inertial ram tuning.
intake runner stack length changes, and to some extent cam timing can be used to tune the torque peaks,
but cross sectional area of the runners , matching the cam timing events,
and having a properly tuned header to maximize exhaust scavenging of the cylinders,
and cylinder head ports cross sectional area and flow rates,
that match the intended flow rates and rpm range,
will dictate a great deal of the air flow speed and where the potential restriction too, or max effective power occurs.
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I wonder how many people read through that info, and might grasp the concept that if you matched the displacement,
compression ratio, cylinder head port cross sectional area, and took the effort to calculate matching intake runner length ,
with a well tuned stack injection induction,
and matched the header primary lengths,
too the cam duration and lift and LSA that you could significantly enhance cylinder scavenging efficiency,
over a limited but predictable, 1000-rpm-1500-rpm, rpm band,
by creating one hell of an efficient, cross flow in the cylinder head's during the over lap period,
when both valves were off the seats at the same time, thus getting one kick in the butt torque curve boost ,
certainly something you feel in the drivers seat as the engine passes into that rpm band
compression ratio, cylinder head port cross sectional area, and took the effort to calculate matching intake runner length ,
with a well tuned stack injection induction,
and matched the header primary lengths,
too the cam duration and lift and LSA that you could significantly enhance cylinder scavenging efficiency,
over a limited but predictable, 1000-rpm-1500-rpm, rpm band,
by creating one hell of an efficient, cross flow in the cylinder head's during the over lap period,
when both valves were off the seats at the same time, thus getting one kick in the butt torque curve boost ,
certainly something you feel in the drivers seat as the engine passes into that rpm band
Loves302Chevy
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
But schools don't teach real math anymore. For example, there is a war all over the internet
over the following equation:
If your answer is "1", then according to today's math, you are wrong.
over the following equation:
If your answer is "1", then according to today's math, you are wrong.
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Loves302Chevy
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
If you are looking for something different, consider this:
It is a McFarland Tork-Link. They occasionally pop up on ebay.
The part number is TLM-1001.
hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
I was just thinking that straighter runners that don't go around bends would be better. plenty of info to learn, I will work this out after I am done with the coupe.
Strictly Attitude
solid fixture here in the forum
Damn my scientific calculator must be wrong
Loves302Chevy
"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."
I haven't tried it myself, but if you enter that equation into a scientific calculator, it will give an answer of "9".
The math they are teaching today says the answer is 9 because if you enter this into a computer, it spits out 9.
So since computers are never wrong, the new answer is 9.
Strictly Attitude
solid fixture here in the forum
No if you put the whole equation in it comes out as 1 I work in the engineering field I will show you tuesday on my calc
hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
back from vacation where I took a 700 lb boar in Tennessee with a rossi 92 in 45 colt. nice hunt. buying more tools and parts.
hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
we had a party of 9 at loshbough hunting lodge, Crossville tenn. due to rain no one got a pig Saturday on the stalk. Saturday afternoon the four archers went out with the dogs and all 4 got 150-200 lb boars. sunday morning I was first up and after the dog sounded we where off on the march to find it. we finally caught up and he was behind a dead tree fall and obscured so we could not get a good look at him. when the guide said to take the shot when I had a sight, I saw his head dropped back for a shoulder shot and dropped him with one shot. a 92 lever action 20" barrel is a good short range tool, starline brass, lasercast 250gr round nose flat tip over 10 grains unique. lasercast hard cast bullets are just that, they go through hogs, shoulder bone, trees with out deforming. while sighting in I put one through 4" of cedar tree furrowed through a foot of dirt and skipped up into another cedar tree, when I picked it out it was still undistorted, for dangerous game or just busting through I am impressed. sorry about picts but I am feeling really incompetent, I can not seem to move pictures around when everybody else has no problem. if I ever become able to post them I certainly will.
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yeah, learning too post pictures is certainly not something most of us get correct on the first try.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-and-posting-clear-photos.5595/#post-19419
and yes even the 45 LC which is certainly not in the same power class with some of the newer magnum pistol cartridges ,
but even a 140 year old design pistol with a 45 caliber pistol with just a 250 grain bullet over 10 grains of unique, still packs a respectable punch.
keep in mind the 45lc operates at much lower pressures
45 Colt 14,000 psi
than most of the more modern magnums many of us use for hunting big game,like the 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag, etc. that operate in the 36,000 psi-37,500 psi range
the 500 S&W and 460 S&W can be loaded to 60,000 PSI
http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Common-Handgun-Cartridges
http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-data-for-hunting-revolvers.9604/#post-35558
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45 Colt +P&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source=
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ns-power-accuracy-effective-range-cost.13280/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...you-cast-and-hunt-with-bullets-you-made.6802/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-and-posting-clear-photos.5595/#post-19419
and yes even the 45 LC which is certainly not in the same power class with some of the newer magnum pistol cartridges ,
but even a 140 year old design pistol with a 45 caliber pistol with just a 250 grain bullet over 10 grains of unique, still packs a respectable punch.
keep in mind the 45lc operates at much lower pressures
45 Colt 14,000 psi
than most of the more modern magnums many of us use for hunting big game,like the 357 mag, 41 mag, 44 mag, etc. that operate in the 36,000 psi-37,500 psi range
the 500 S&W and 460 S&W can be loaded to 60,000 PSI
http://www.genitron.com/Basics/Common-Handgun-Cartridges
http://www.handloads.com/misc/saami.htm
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...d-data-for-hunting-revolvers.9604/#post-35558
http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45 Colt +P&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source=
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ns-power-accuracy-effective-range-cost.13280/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tance-to-use-hard-cast-lead-projectiles.9875/
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...you-cast-and-hunt-with-bullets-you-made.6802/
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hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
taken on 35 degree hillside
hotrod coupe
Well-Known Member
taken on a thirty five degree hillside, where worried that it would start rolling down the hill.