first hotrod build

hotrod coupe · Oct 10, 2017

As to arp I am using studs for main and heads but are they needed for everywhere else, torque converter, intake, exhaust, covers? As for head gaskets I have .023 deck height, felpro has a .015 shim for .038 or mr gasket has .020 in steel or copper for .043 quench.
I prefer felpro but i'm leaning toward mr gasket.

Grumpy · Oct 10, 2017

I'd say its a good idea on the torque converter,and with thread locker , or loc-tite
intake, and valve, covers, not mandatory or really needed,but grade #8 prefered
exhaust Id suggest stainless fasteners with lots of anti-seize on the threads
cap screws provide more clearance.

On oil pans I prefer studs, and an oil pan back plate

hotrod coupe · Oct 14, 2017

crank run out is still beating me. took a couple thou off cap bearing tried it no still zero play, leaving bearing in block I took bearing out of rear cap tightened down to 15lb I have the same 4 thou as when loose. It seems that the rear main cap is tilting forward when tightened down. any idea what I am encountering here?

Grumpy · Oct 14, 2017

is your rear main cap or next main cap too the rear main, not seating square and flush to the block, surface?
any chance one or more main caps are reversed or not siting square vertically?
any chance the bolts or studs are bent?

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/main-cap-fit-in-block.5945/#post-18302

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/block-prep.125/#post-1246

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/splayed-main-caps.1014/#post-1861

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ifying-clearances-on-bearings.1026/#post-4328

hotrod coupe · Oct 14, 2017

only one way I can see for a rear main to be installed, the rest are in order and correct with new arp studs, will inspect more, hope its not bad machining when they line bored the block.

hotrod coupe · Oct 14, 2017

problem diagnosed, took the rear main from the old engine and installed the bearing in it after cleaning. 4 thou clearance finger tight- torqued to 60 lb still has same 4 thou run out. looks like bad machining to me. used plastiguage before changing main caps and it was 3 thou all the way across so bearing to crank is in line but cap leans to front. looks like more machine shop time, I cant believe I could get off so easy as to use the old rear main cap. your thoughts on this would be appreciated.

Grumpy · Oct 14, 2017

yeah! its not all that rare to find the main caps don,t sit squarely in the block if they are not the original caps or if they were re-machined

hotrod coupe · Oct 15, 2017

well I got my run out. took the old cap from the 350, that proved the rear cap from the new block is leaning, and cleaned it torqued it down measured the bore and it mics at less than a thou out of round, installed bearings torqued and measured with plastiguage, 3 thou all the way across with no variance from one side to the other, put all together and torqued to 80 lb as arp says in 15 lb increments checking run out with each step, held constant at 4 thou run out. maybe 10 in/lb to start turning crank and my beam wrench wont measure any resistance to keep it turning. my question is does this sound useable even though it is not ideal. these are the times when experience is invaluable.

Loves302Chevy · Oct 15, 2017

I can't believe you got away with swapping a rear main cap from another block and it worked.

“Success is simply a matter of luck. Ask any failure.“ – Earl Wilson

Sometimes it's better to be lucky than good. Go buy a lottery ticket NOW!

Grumpy · Oct 16, 2017

if it measures like you stated, it should work ok.

hotrod coupe · Oct 22, 2017

file fit 7 of 8 piston rings all to 20 thou gap, broke a lower compression ring and need to figure out how to get a replacement, all rods slide back and forth in the clearance on crank and wrist pins freely. turning the crank over with torque wrench not so good, at points resistance is as high as 400 in/lb, drag is not smooth and feels like vibration at times and sometimes gets much smoother and easy. any ideas on this. pull back apart and try to find out whats going on again.

Loves302Chevy · Oct 22, 2017

Call the ring manufacturer. People break rings all the time. They will probably send one for free.
Did the crank spin freely with all the mains torqued?
What lube was used? Remember, the crank journals actually ride on a film of oil.
If you spun the crank quickly, did it stop at the same place each time? You want to be able to say - NO.
Stop now and correct the problem before continuing.

Loosen one main cap at a time and do the spin test. When the crank can spin freely, you have found the culprit.

Grumpy · Oct 22, 2017

yes call the ring manufacturer thats not that rare and most will either send a replacement or sell you one very reasonably

as to the rotational smoothness, be aware that, all assembly lubes and oil on blocks bore the rings ride over and all bearing surfaces, coated with oil and assembly lube provide a surface shear tension that must be broken before the crank turns,
so its not un-usually for the rotating assembly after the pistons and rings are installed, too require lets say 35 ft lbs to get the assembly too start too spin ,but only 15-26 ft lbs to keep in rotating , (low tension rings provide less drag) you can generally call the piston ring manufacturers and they should know approximately what torque reading on the crank snout,a socket and a torque wrench will require to have the engine assembly rotate with their rings installed.
a crank snout, turning socket,but if that short block assembly,takes over 35-40 lbs to start it rotating once its assembled without cylinder heads attached, you've got serious issues, like cam lobe to connecting roods hitting or a connecting rod facing the wrong way on the crank journal, or the wrong size bearings, or the crank journals not the right size, badly polished or not round

that's why you'll need a torque beam deflection torque wrench to check that

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hotrod coupe · Oct 22, 2017

thanks on the heads up on rings. everything was smooth and easy before putting pistons in. when I turn the crank I get distinct swooshing sound from rings and piston in bore. going through the links I may have found my overlook, never checked the oil expander ring assembly , I don't know how to and have not found any threads on how to other than squeezing the but ends with needle nose pliers. everything else I believe I have checked. the old craftsman in/lb beam torque wrench really bends at 400 in/lb and still has a lot of uses, not so much its bigger ft/lb brother but will give a visual reference check.

Indycars · Oct 22, 2017

hotrod coupe said:
and sometimes gets much smoother and easy. any ideas on this.

When turning the crank slowly the force to maintain a slow constant turn varies. Looking
at each cylinder individually it depends on where that piston is in the cylinder, as it passes
thru TDC and BDC the torque in minimal.

Also, as you add each cylinder and piston the increase in torque does not change linearly. You
can see that in the graphic below.

hotrod coupe said:
I don't know how to and have not found any threads on how to other than squeezing the but ends with needle nose pliers.

Read this first, you may find that you are NOT supposed to bend the end of the oil ring expander.
Check with the manufacture to be sure.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gine-project-dart-shp.3814/page-12#post-17457

hotrod coupe · Oct 22, 2017

on piston drag with just crank it spins freely by fingers, with each piston fit drag drag increased a bit more than your torque to turn pyramid says adding each time to end with 400 in/lb with 7 pistons in. I assume that it is the piston rings causing the extra drag due to the scuffing sound from the cylinders. gapped all rings to 20 thou except the oil expander ring so I asked about that. guess it's pull all pistons and remove rings, reinstall to eliminate any possibility other than rings, and go from there.

Grumpy · Oct 23, 2017

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-piston-pin-height-compression-height.5064/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...n-wrist-pins-one-really-over-looked-part.978/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/maximizing-piston-to-bore-ring-seal.3897/

if you find the rotating assembly is more difficult to rotate than you expected, you may want to verify some clearance issues that get over looked at times,
theres also some, other potential issues,
theres a slight potential for the piston wrist pins too not rotate effortlessly in the piston pin bores ,

that may add to the difficulty in rotating the assembly in the block.
the piston rings must have vertical and back clearance in the piston ring grooves

Piston Ring Groove Clearance
Pistons are grooved to fit rings that seal the cylinder’s compression and allow for lubrication of the cylinder walls. Piston rings come in a set. There are two compression rings. The top ring is affected by the most cylinder compression pressures. The second compression ring reinforces the top ring. The third ring down is the oil ring. It controls lubrication between the piston and cylinder bore.

Place the new ring into the top piston groove, and then place a feeler gauge into the gap between the new ring and the upper land. Move around the pistons groove and obtain a few measurements. Compare this reading to specifications. If this reading is too much and the gap is too large, the piston must be replaced. The top ring takes the most compression. This causes the ring to slap against and wear the lands in the piston groove.

and of course the pistons must have the correct piston too bore clearance. and connecting rod can only be installed facing one direction

Indycars · Oct 23, 2017

I went thru your comments above and I don't see where you oiled the piston and rings, you
probably did I just can't be sure. Generally the most used method is pouring about 2-3 inches
of oil in a container just large enough for the piston top and rings to get submerged in oil.
Move the rings around so the oil gets into the rings lands and let some of the excess drip off.

Grumpy · Oct 23, 2017

thanks RICK, its always good to point out things that we, may take for granted, that could easily be over looked

BTW when you go to buy a ring compressor....this type(ABOVE & BELOW) works far better than the others, but its specific to a very limited range in bore size applications

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO-66766&N=700+115&autoview=sku

Proform 66766 $31

remember to dip the piston and rings in high quality oil just prior too or before assembly I,ve used MARVEL MYSTERY OIL FOR DECADES

this style ring compressor below has a nasty habit of not keeping the rings evenly compressed and not seating evenly on the block , Ive used them but the type above is much easier to use

BTW I recommend THIS TYPE of piston ring compressor (below)as the type in the video can and occasionally does allow the rings to pop out and jam, or break far more frequently .

the picture lacks detail, but the interior of the compressors tapered, you tighten to a slide fit on the piston diam. and the rings compress fully as they are entering the cylinder entrance and only expand after entering the bore.

Proform 66766 $31

youll be surprised at how much easier they slide into the bore if you BOTH pull/guide and push the pistons into the cylinders rather than just beat them in with a hammer handle, it takes some practice but a few taps to get them moving with a fist, while pulling and guiding the rod into its journal is usually all that necessary with a well oiled piston and that type of ring compressor.
IVE dunked my piston/ring assembly's in a can of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL just before installation with a ring compressor and have never seen the slightest indication of problems either on ring sealing getting the rings broken in, or on tearing the engines down later for inspections

KEEP IN MIND
any ring compressor design you use regardless ,of the design MUST have its lower surface kept firmly in contact with the block surface and parallel to the bore to allow the rings to smoothly transition from the inner surface of the compressor to the blocks bore, and IDEALLY the compressor internal diameter will be marginally smaller in internal diameter that the cylinder bore the pistons sliding into from it!

hotrod coupe · Oct 23, 2017

just ordered replacement ring and talked about he excessive turning torque and he said that's right on mark. evidently these have 20 lb oil rings 1/16 1/16 3/16 cr3690-35. I did miss the step of soaking pistons in oil before installation and just coated with marvels.

first hotrod build

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