first hotrod build

Grumpy · May 24, 2017

why does everyone I talk to despise keith black pistons, all say they are cheep junk.

keith black makes a wide selection of pistons and they vary a good deal in quality and price.
Its the guy who builds the engine's responsibility to do the required research and select the correct parts for the particular application and thats
NOT SOMETHING YOU DO BASED ON COST ALONE!
expecting a set of their $199 pistons to have the same quality as the $600 set would be about as logical as expecting a
$14000 car to have all the quality and features of a $50,000 car
you tend to get what you pay for! and your expected to know and understand the difference in the components you select and what your options are well before you order parts.
Ive used the KB hypereutectic pistons in several daily driver replacement engine builds with complete success.
but I would think it rather silly to install a set of similar pistons in a high compression engine you intended to regularly spin up to 6500 rpm, and then expect the pistons to stand up long term, but thats a rather common mistake made by some guys who want to keep cost low , who don,t understand nor want to research the differences in piston materials and design limitations.
one more reason that doing your research before you purchase components really helps avoid problems, and why a couple days of reading carefully could save you weeks of work and thousands of wasted dollars

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/forged-or-not.13226/#post-69018

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/new-hypers-or-used-forged.7302/#post-24845

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/piston-related-info.110/#post-1671

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/types-of-crankshaft-steel.204/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...g-and-installing-connecting-rods-pistons.247/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/rod-bolts-rpm-vs-stress.341/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/maximizing-piston-to-bore-ring-seal.3897/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...trong-will-a-scat-rotating-assembly-be.11495/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/piston-to-bore-clearance.4630/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-and-basic-piston-ring-info-youll-need.509/

https://www.uempistons.com/installation_instructions/kb_installation.pdf

https://www.summitracing.com/search...cm_mmc=ppc-google-_-search-_-brands-_-keyword

http://www.speedwaymotors.com/KB-Claimer-Chevy-350-Hypereutectic-Pistons-150-Dome-57-Rod,34225.html

http://www.jegs.com/p/KB-Performanc...tic-Small-Block-Chevy-Pistons/747247/10002/-1

Indycars · May 24, 2017

hotrod coupe said:
ok will this run on pump gas, 91 octane is the best we gar around here. 65cc afr-5cc speed pro hyper pistons-howards 282 advertised straight up with 108 lsa. Wallace racing says 10.96 stat. comp. and 8.46 dynamic 171.89 cranking psi.

I wouldn't be too concerned about using a dish piston. You are not building to compete in
a class and looking for every last HP. Do try to get a D shaped dish if possible to maintain
good turbulence from the quench area. Also referred to as an inverted dome. BTW some
manufactures refer to a dish as a - number and some use + number.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/department/engines-components?SortBy=Default&SortOrder=Ascending&N=4294949512+4294914196+4294884142+4294880197+4294880191+4294879568+4294879708+4294861326+4294861314

Or you could go with a different head that has a 72cc chamber and a flat top pistons with
about a 5cc reliefs. See SCR/DCR graphic below.

There are several Howards cams with at least one spec at 282° duration, so I can't be
certain of the IVC. Please specify a particular cam with part number or all the specs.
Better yet would be a link to the cam card. This would be alot easier if you new for certain
a couple of camshaft that had the right performance you are looking for, then select the
heads and pistons to get the SCR/DCR you need for your available gasoline.

https://www.summitracing.com/search/make/chevrolet/engine-family/chevy-small-block-gen-i?PageSize=25&SortBy=BestKeywordMatch&SortOrder=Ascending&keyword=howards cams 282

I'm running about an 8.25 DCR and can only get 91 octane. I've had some trouble with
detonation on the highway with an ambient temp above 90°F. I tried to do most everything
I could to reduce detonation. Aluminum heads (IK200), polished chambers, removed sharp
edges from pistons and polished exhaust valve.
All my particulars for the engine build are in the link below:
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/tbucket-engine-project-dart-shp.3814/

This is a piston you don't want, it has very little quench area.

Now this piston is perfectly fine for your application.

.

Chew on that awhile then ask more questions, we like questions !!!
.

Grumpy · May 24, 2017

thank you for posting that info, and diagram, Rick!

Indycars · May 24, 2017

Your welcome Grumpy, I'm slowly working my way back !

hotrod coupe · May 25, 2017

the 282/282 cam is howards 180305-8 single pattern, the 272/272 I thought was a howards too but I don't see it now. can always custom grind a cam once I have figured out what I need. all your input is appreciated as is the site and information.

Strictly Attitude · May 25, 2017

I like the icon setup better your car is light so in a 383 you don't need gobs of torque in the middle with the tight LSA. A 110 will spread that power band and allow for more rpm. That RPM is going to be faster then spinning the tires uncontrollably. On a 355 I would run a 108 cause it could use the extra midrange. Plus a good head allows for a wider LSA cause you do not need as much overlap you can get to a point where you are just dumping raw fuel into the exhaust. Street car fun to drive, faster then most is a good target don't get too caught up in numbers. Being able to hop in your car and go and not worry and still be able to lay it down is a beautiful thing.

Strictly Attitude · May 25, 2017

Sorry guys somehow I missed this page before posting this morning all good info.

Loves302Chevy · May 25, 2017

"and why does everyone I talk to despise keith black pistons, all say they are cheep junk.

I used them in my SBC 334. Even though I never heard anything, I had major detonation, enough to cause
the rod bearings to lose their outward crush, and the big end of the rods were out of round in strange ways.
The engine also ate the camshaft lobes and all that shrapnel kept being circulated around the crankcase. The
cylinder bores had vertical scratches and the piston skirts had that grit embedded in them. But I was able to
remove that grit by simply dragging a razor blade across the skirts and then scotchbrighting them. I showed
them to my machinist and even he said, "Nothing wrong with those."

hotrod coupe · Jun 1, 2017

this should be about right giving a 9.96 scr and 8.07 dcr for a knock free ride while keeping a reasonable compression. scat rotating assembly sca1-91205bi using icon forged head relief pistons with 3.7cc valve relief. I have checked the web for reviews of these pistons, a new design with a forged top and hyperuetectic skirts , no bad reports that I have seen. howards hydraulic roller cam #180885-08 278/278 advertised 225/225 @.050 using 4*advance .35/.35 lobe lift giving .560/.560 using 1.6 to 1 rockers. plan to use comp cam ultra pro magnum roller rockers, steel rockers at almost the same price as any aluminum rockers I would use and no stress fatigue. afr 195 heads w/75cc combustion chamber. I can always have them milled down for more compression, not so easy to add metal. for intake I am looking to weiand 8502 air gap. and how are the airgap manifolds do they deliver or are they overblown for their performance. this should be real close to my original idea for a build, just built much better than I would have done without your help at this site

Grumpy · Jun 1, 2017

the combo above as listed sounds fairly well thought out,
but Id point out that more than a few guys build engines that potentially produce good power in an rpm range that won,t match the application its going to be used in,
... Id point out that the drive train gearing, transmission, rear gear ratio, tire diameter, car/truck weight, control over your engines ignition advance curve, and constant and monitored, control of the fuel/air ratio,
and efficiency of the exhaust design, at cylinder scavenging will all play important parts in making the combo work effectively
lets discuss several of those factors before you move forward here, in selecting and purchasing components.
many guys don,t think things through carefully, and could potentially build an engine that produces exceptional power , but not correctly match that power curve to the drive train.

you may want too re-read these threads I posted below,
,notice the discussion of component selection and
and notice that neither engine was designed for max horse power,
but rather for max usable torque in the intended power band
also notice that the cross fire corvette and t-bucket, run well and provide decent street performance, mostly because their individual engines power band and the drive train, matches the drive train gearing, making the combo of engine power curve instantly responsive in the intended power band and intended rpm range.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ine-project-dart-shp.3814/page-108#post-69835

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ntake-for-cross-fires.2796/page-39#post-69565

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hing-the-drive-train-to-the-engine-combo.741/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...late-gear-ratios-and-when-to-shift-calcs.555/

I well remember a friend I had in college, (LARRY M) who actually believed all the info printed in the magazine engine build articles back in the early 1970s
he followed the built what the magazine printed as if it was Gospel, and stuck an 11:1 compression 377 sbc, with a radical solid lifter cam, and a tunnel ram intake that was supposed to make about 490 hp, in a 3800 lb impala
(similar to this but maroon and with a big hood scoop)

with a stock power glide transmission, HE PURCHASED FROM A SALVAGE YARD, with a 3.08:1 rear gear ratio ... yes it was a disaster until we swapped the transmission for a muncie 4 speed and swapped the rear differential for a 4.11:1 rear gear with a posi rear , the drive train swap changed the car from high 16s second times to mid 13s.
and remember this was back in the early 1970s and with ported fuelie heads, so 13 second times were damn impressive at the time! once he had a manual transmission and posi rear differential, with a 4.11:1 rear gear,installed ,most 454 chevelles had a difficult time beating him.

READ
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-fast-were-the-old-muscle-cars.1938/

Strictly Attitude · Jun 1, 2017

Combo seems good you will like those heads they perform well. Grumpy has allot of good advise written there. Match it properly and you will have one heck of a street machine. I ran a performer rpm air gap intake it worked great. They are dyno proven and strip proven. Even better street proven!!

hotrod coupe · Jun 2, 2017

the rest of the drivetrain will be a 700r4 and probably an 8.8 explorer rear using 3.23 gears and whatever positraction ford uses. I got the 700 from a friend for $60, an 87 cam lobe casting, that I will rebuild with a 1800/2200 stall converter. the cams advertised operating range 2000-5800. would love to get a winters quick change but I don't see funding for that.

hotrod coupe · Jun 3, 2017

does anybody have actual experience with the Mexican machined small blocks from comp products. they where nice to clearance for a 383 crank but it has paint all over the machined surfaces and I just checked the cam bearings and the oil holes are all over 6oclock- 12oclock-2.30-11oclock-4,30. and I am wondering how the bock paint will hold up.

Strictly Attitude · Jun 4, 2017

How tall of a tire I think a 3.23 is to high a 3.7ish gear is nice I have a 700r4 you better build that up it will not live long behind real power. Play with a gear ratio calculator to figure your mph and rpm. That is the advantage of OD that .70 final gear.

Grumpy · Jun 4, 2017

does anybody have actual experience with the Mexican machined small blocks from comp products. they where nice to clearance for a 383 crank but it has paint all over the machined surfaces and I just checked the cam bearings and the oil holes are all over 6oclock- 12oclock-2.30-11oclock-4,30. and I am wondering how the bock paint will hold up.

I have no personal experience with any engine purchased from comp products,
but I have heard similar complaints and cam bearings that are ideally placed will be placed so that the oil feed holes have specific locations,
Id be rather inclined to think that if the cam bearings are installed incorrectly and if they are, that would make me very suspicious of all the other machine work done in the same shop

When your planing to build a performance car, I've found it helps,
you see progress being made and prevents you from getting discouraged as easily,
if you work on accumulating components for each of the 8 basic sub assemblies,
and checking off your list those components and grouping those on a separate shelf,
as doing so tends to allow you to see more consistent progress,
being made, and you get a feeling your getting someplace.

(1) BLOCK (bearings, freeze plugs main caps and machine work)

(2) ROTATING ASSEMBLY (crank, rods pistons, rings, flywheel,damper etc.)

(3) CYLINDER HEADS and VALVE TRAIN ( valves, valve springs, cam, timing gears, rockers, valve guides, push-rods lifters . etc.)

(4)INDUCTION(manifold, throttle body, sensors, carbs, supercharger, injection , fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator injectors etc.)

(5) DRIVE TRAIN ASSEMBLY COMPONENTS(clutch, stall converter, transmission ETC.)

(6) ignition system (distributor,coils, ignition wires, magneto etc.)

(7) LUBE SYSTEM (oil pan, oil pump, windage tray,oil cooler, ETC.)
these threads and links and sub-links might help

(8) EXHAUST (headers and exhaust system, mufflers ETC.)

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-bearing-install-tools-install-info.1479/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/block-prep.125/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/383-information-overload.11137/#post-49854

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-383-sbc-combo-planing.12168/#post-58778

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...k-after-a-cam-lobe-rod-or-bearings-fail.2919/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-68651

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/another-383-build.12786/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-57946

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-57678

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...gine-to-match-the-cam-specs.11764/#post-55651

hotrod coupe · Jun 4, 2017

for rear end gearing I will be limited on traction, currently using 215-15 tires and may be able to fit 235s in the fenders.

hotrod coupe · Jun 4, 2017

ghaa stupid nubees should listen to experience, should have bought the dart block. with a light brushing half of the paint is coming off the block like it was sprayed over oil, wish they had not sprayed the block at all. being "fully machined" will there be a problem with having it cleaned, my machinist tanks it, and should the new freeze plugs be removed. I will remove all oil plugs and thread the front oil passages instead of the press plugs that are there now and replace the cam bearings. thinking of getting a cam bearing tool and doing it myself. also will get drills for oil passages. following indycars build and will attempt to get it as close as I can to his level, impressive build.

Loves302Chevy · Jun 4, 2017

Do have access to a pressure washer, or take it to your local car wash at night.
Blow it dry with compressed air, or rags if going the car wash route.
Have WD-40 ready to coat the cylinders and bearing surfaces.

Ask your machines what is used in the "hot tank".
Oakite is what they used to use - I doubt if anyone still uses it.
That is the chemical that will eat the cam bearings.

hotrod coupe · Jun 4, 2017

cam bearings are inexpensive so its worth piece of mind so are freeze plugs but everything looks clean in the water passages so your opinion is valued. will talk to machinist tomorrow.

Grumpy · Jun 5, 2017

first hotrod build

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

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Well-Known Member

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

solid fixture here in the forum

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

solid fixture here in the forum

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.

Well-Known Member

Well-Known Member

"One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

Well-Known Member

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.