Fuel Line Sizing - Return vs Feed

Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

another caveat about dual pumps in general, be they both on all the time or sequential or whatever, when one pump fails, you typically only find out only after your mixture went lean and your motor goes boom. if you got one pummp and it fails, the car wont run and you wont get to that point.
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

philly said:
yea i just filled up th silverado with e85 for 2.59 a gallon.

as for prices on race fuel, id have to make some calls and ask because i stay away from the stuff. i don do race gas and i dont do thermal coatings in the combustion chamber... those are two crutches i cant rely on in a real street car.
Click to expand...

I hear Ya Phil. ;)
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

My realistic goals are a system that can handle at least 500hp with leeway. I think the Walbro will fit my needs for allot less money, close to $100 cheaper from summit racing. I have also read you don't want to go too big with your pump because the traveling gas will pick up heat as it flows. But obviously too little gas would be far more detrimental.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/bch-61944/overview/
Bosch 044 Fuel Pump Specs:
Bosch Part Number: 0580254044
Minimum Current: 12 Volts
Operating Pressure: 72.5 PSI (5 Bar)
Minimum Flow @ Outlet: 80 GPH (300 LPH)
Fuel Pump Location: In-Line
High Temperature Reduction: 8 GPH (30 LPH)

http://walbrofuelpumps.com/GSL392-Walbro-Fuel-Pump.html
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/vpn-gsl392
Walbro GSL392 Fuel Pump


Walbro Universal Inline GSL392 Fuel Pump
Walbro universal fuel pump GSL392 is one of the most popular fuel pumps made by Walbro. is an ideal upgrades for:

GSL392 fuel pump is used in vehicles for racing or performance purposes where higher pressure fuel is necessary. Turbocharged, Supercharged.- with faulty inline fuel pumps, expensive or hard to replace in-tank fuel pumps.

For example, at 80 PSI the standard 255 lph pump will flow around 132 liters (35 gallons) per hour. At that same 80 PSI the equivalent HP (high pressure) fuel pump will flow over 210 liters (50 gallons) per hour.


Walbro GSL392 255LPH High Pressure Inline Fuel Pump are extremely popular upgrades to vehicles with engine and performance modifications, supporting up to 650 horse power.

GSL392 Flow Chart


GSL392 Fuel Pump Specs:



- Pressure: 255 (LPH) Liters Per Hour- AMP: 20
- OE-proven second generation.
- Fits most EFI applications including turbo and supercharged.
- Variety of pressures and flows available, including high pressure performance.- All metal shell including inlet and outlet.
- 10mm x 1mm threaded inlet and outlet accept a variety of fittings.
- The 400-939 kit include two standard universal fittings which can connect to any 5/16 inch hose.- Lightweight, compact design.
- QS9000 certified.
- Made in USA

I was planning -08AN front to back feed and return lines. I feel the cost difference between the line size I can't go wrong with -08AN. The options I was thinking about for fuel line is running stainless down the straight part of my frame and also an inline cooler for the fuel like this style pictured below with PTFE braided for the other lines not sure what brand but it will not be XRP as I can not afford that option even though I wish I could (reason exotics are so expensive right there). How do you guys feel about Summit brand steel braided PTFE http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-220993/overview/. Might be over kill but the coolers are cheap and readily available or am I just over thinking and it being a waste of money.

Ok now the fuel cell I see plenty of 20 gal with rear sump on ebay and on summit for around $200 I have access to a wire spool aluminum mig but after talking to the owner he say after gas and materials. Also it really should be done with a tig. I would not be really gaining much. I have had some ideas of modifying a fuel cell also but feel for my budget and realistic needs this will surfice. I could get foam and just make sure I keep up on it or I could just run it. Either way it's a huge step up from the stock gas tank that the pick up was moved on to the bottom towards the back :shock: :? . Maybe down the road I can modify it or get that tig I always wanted and build my own.


I will not forget the high flow fuel filters or the regulator I am just not to the point of figuring out exactly what products I am going to use for those yet. Opinions?
 

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Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design


Is the fuel really going to be so hot that you need a cooler? Did the pump
heat the fuel or something else?

You might get some ideas from the thread below.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=7787

 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

I don't know if it is necisary and I have read through that thread a few times and got some great ideas from it I also was just reading a thread c4 hesitation and made me wonder what throttle body I should use for my stealth ram build?
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

Indycars said:

Is the fuel really going to be so hot that you need a cooler? Did the pump
heat the fuel or something else?

You might get some ideas from the thread below.

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=7787

[/color]
Click to expand...

the pump is a MINOR factor in heating fuel, if fuel travels thru metal fuel lines in the engine compartment or sits in the fuel rails, over the injectors on an injected engine it will typically pick up heat from the engine and exhaust.
in a properly functioning EFI system theres a constant flow of fuel thru the injectors and back to the fuel tank thru the fuel presure regulator assuring the fuel in the fuel rails feeding the injectors remains fairly cool in relation to what engine compartment temps are, (you can verify that with an ACCURATE infrared temp gun) simply point at the fuel rail then at a valve cover and youll see a marked difference in temps in a properly functioning MPFI system
irtemp.jpg

http://www.professionalequipment.com/ex ... ermometer/
tpifrl.png

efisystem.jpg


it should be obvious that where a heat transfer device is placed and the surrounding temps would have a pronounced effect on its ability to reduce or ABSORB HEAT and the TIME spent in transitioning thru such a device or the flow rate would also effect its heat transfer, if you were to place some device like this in-line trans fluid cooler on a fuel line in an engine compartment id bet big money the average fuel delivery temp would INCREASE as it would act like a big heat absorbent heat sink in a hot engine compartment, simply because the engine compartment temps would tend to be higher than the fuel entering the engine compartment and its increased internal volume would slow the fuels transition to the fuel rails allowing it more time to absorb the surrounding heat.
finnedoilcooler.jpg





read the links

http://www.enginelabs.com/news/entry-le ... -showdown/


http://www.jegs.com/p/FAST/FAST-EZ-EFI- ... 4/10002/-1

http://www.jegs.com/p/Holley/Holley-Ave ... 7/10002/-1
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

grumpyvette said:
if you were to place some device like this in-line trans fluid cooler on a fuel line in an engine compartment id bet big money the average fuel delivery temp would INCREASE as it would act like a big heat absorbent heat sink in a hot engine compartment, simply because the engine compartment temps would tend to be higher than the fuel entering the engine compartment
Click to expand...

I wasn't completely sure, but that's exactly what I was thinking.

The fuel should never be hot enough that a cooler could actually help. The
fuel would have to be considerably hotter than it's surroundings. To actually
remove heat from the fuel would require a Cool Fuel Can, where it would
be packed with dry ice or water and wet ice.

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-65125



 

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Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

I have one of those Moroso Cool cans put away in my collection of Race Parts.
Was intended for the Vette.
Likely use on the 63 GP 71 GTO 455 project. They are very usefull on All carburator applications .
Fill with a mix of Isophroyl rubbing alcohol or denatured wood alcohol & water ice cubes.
Dry Ice even better if available.

The Stealth Aeromotive 340 Liter pump is a Rare eath magnet pump motor.
Ultra high performance submersable design.
Steve & I chose 2 of them to take Duty cycle operating characteristics & cut in half.
Just 1 moves a lot of fuel.
Its a complex design yes but has its own advantages.
Definate the only like it ever made & by myself.
C4 ZR-1 Stealth Aeromotive 340L X 2 .
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

Was thinking along the frame rail if anywhere like I said just crazy idea I had. I don't know where I had read it but excessive flow through the line cause friction and creates heat. I don't know what excessive flow would be but I doubt I will see it in my setup.
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

Strictly Attitude said:
Was thinking along the frame rail if anywhere like I said just crazy idea I had. I don't know where I had read it but excessive flow through the line cause friction and creates heat. I don't know what excessive flow would be but I doubt I will see it in my setup.
Click to expand...
Its an imperfect world.
Every fuel system design has its own advantages & disadvantage.

Road & exhaust heat pickup radiation more of a factor.
Return line sizing important. Too small bad.
Too large is not a reality.
Bigger is better.
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

Strictly Attitude said:
Was thinking along the frame rail if anywhere like I said just crazy idea I had. I don't know where I had read it but excessive flow through the line cause friction and creates heat. I don't know what excessive flow would be but I doubt I will see it in my setup.
Click to expand...

you will see that register more as a loss in flow and a raise in pressure, moreso than a difference in temperature... i really genuinely dont think that its necessary to run a heat sink type cooler as you posted above.
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

provided the correct matching fuel line, feed and return line sizes and fuel pump capacity are used that looks like a fine choice, I will point out that the most common mistake I see being consistently made is guys trying to connect larger free flow lines, like 1/2" inside diam, back to either the original fuel tank and 5/16" or 3/8" connections or use of adapters with small passage sizes far smaller than the larger line size flow rates will allow
efisystem.jpg


fitr1.jpg

fitr2.jpg

fitr3.jpg

FuelFlowDiagram02a1.jpg

returnlinesz.png

AEI-13301.jpg

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/aei-13301/overview/
the regulator linked above can be adapted easily from carb to EFI use

Fuel-Pump-Flow-Requirements.jpg

line4.jpg


http://fuelab.com/understanding-fuel-line-fittings-straight-thread-and-an-vs-tapered-thread/

https://www.asap-supplies.com/us/fittings-valves-strainers/fittings/hose-tail-fittings

Use these ratings to decide your return line sizing based upon fuel pump output:

*
Up to 45 GPH = 5/16" or -04 AN
*
Up to 90 GPH = 3/8" or -06 AN
*
Up to 250 GPH = 1/2" or -08 AN
*
Up to 450 GPH = 5/8" or -10 AN
*
Up to 900 GPH = 3/4"or -12 AN

Use these figures as a fuel line sizing standard: if your feeding a carburetor with the typical 8-10 psi fuel pump feeding to the fuel pressure regulator

* Up to 250 HP = 5/16" or -04 AN
* Up to 500 HP = 3/8" or -06 AN
* Up to 700 HP = 1/2" or -08 AN
* Up to 1000 HP = 5/8" or -10 AN
* Up to 1500 HP = 3/4" or -12 AN

https://www.amazon.com/10AN-AN10-Stainless-Steel-Braided/dp/B01MT5C6HO/ref=sr_1_15?ie=UTF8&qid=1528719700&sr=8-15&keywords=5/8+fuel+hose

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-up-your-fuel-system.211/page-2#post-39677

https://www.discounthydraulichose.c...MI8JPO183L2wIV0oV-Ch2E-w80EAQYAyABEgKUU_D_BwE

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...c-fuel-pump-selection.10664/page-2#post-46237

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-sizing-return-vs-feed.3067/page-2#post-44823

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/fuel-line-problem.9305/#post-33631

 
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Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design


Aeromotive products are top shelf, should work great.

 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

I am doing the whole fuel supply system at once here. I will be using a new fuel cell, new pump, new filters I need to pick them out still have been reading up grumpy ;) but feel free to link away as I am sure other prying eyes will make it here. I will also make sure to take allot of pictures to share as I do this. I will not rush through it though and I am sure it will still take longer than I want as my family still takes priority. Even though the little guy loves hanging out in the chevelle helping dad. But at 2 it's hard to keep that safe so he is limited where he can help (more cause mischief and try to press every button he can find think he will be a NOS addict when he gets older. But it's never to young to pass on Hot Rodding tradition.
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

Strictly Attitude said:
Even though the little guy loves hanging out in the chevelle helping dad. But at 2 it's hard to keep that safe so he is limited where he can help (more cause mischief and try to press every button he can find think he will be a NOS addict when he gets older. But it's never to young to pass on Hot Rodding tradition.
Click to expand...

Wish I had a second chance to do things differently, enjoy it while you can!

Just in case you are planning on using AN fittings ...... I estimated $100 (see Excel spreadsheets),
finally pricing was $157.64, but I have probably spent $200 to $225 on those fittings now.

 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design
I think youll find this usefull


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/setting-up-your-fuel-system.211/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/fuel-pressure-regulators.635/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/flex-fuel-lines.4381/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/brake-and-fuel-line-flaring.11236/#post-50743
I remeber reading that, AN fittings are not cheap and it to easily forgotten that you need adapters to AN I am going to try to keep cost down but I am familiar with how a project will nickel and dime you real quick mounting hardware for example I am sure there is some there but nothing for return line. Theee is a hyraulic supply place close to here that is an aeroquip quick shop. I might give them my business lay out with rope and wire to get accurate measurements. The best plan I can think of is prep work the more the better. As a custom painter and ex mechanic I have realized how much prep makes the rest of the job go easy. I can not afford to order extra or make mistakes so its measure, visualize put on paper and make sure I do it right the first time.
1- I will order the cell, pump, filters and regulator first.
2- Figure out there mounting and fabricate that. Allot of work here need to think out weight distribution want the weight close to the wheel base and keep it low. G machine more than 1/4 mile beast. Safety plan protection think what needs to be done to protect fittings and lines not a car that only gets trailored to the track. Will be on the road and have my son in it.
So a cell with fittings out the rear will need protection so if hit from rear by texting teen in his acura he doesn't break off my AN fittings and dump my tank.

will right up something to layout all the steps on word the copy and paste here this will help me and might help others but need to organize it and go into more depth explination then I can type in a quick post
 
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Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

Its a Bladder type Fuel cell John.
Always been pricey.
We used the same when dirt track racing.

Corvette stuff is even more expensive.
Why I said the Hell with my 87 vert Vette for this year.

Move onto easier & much lower cost projects.
I have 2 young boys too

They both can fit into my old Pontiac Tin Indian & ride along.
Vette not possible.
 
Re: EFI Fuel Pumps and Fuel system design

I know I am very familiar with the style of tank it is and there design also. Awesome cells but also expensive as bladders need to be changed every 5 years for certain regulations along with tires. I can't afford my dreams right now but I love to dream.
 
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