going old school, lead/tin auto body filler

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
this is a dying art, I used to do a great deal of this, type of panel repair on older muscle cars, but epoxy bondo is now used more frequently, its not nearly as good in my opinion, because bondo doesn,t have the firm grip on the metals surface ,or tend to resist the formation of rust, like a tinned solder does, the tin acts a bit like galvanization, or an anode , it resists rust, nor can moisture get under the solder like it can with bondo, but it takes much less skill to smear and sand, bondo .
the key in using tinned lead as a filler, but only clean steel thats been fluxed with the correct paste, or acid flux, (tinning butter) will absorb or stick to the filler, once its tinned,the secret is in surface prep, and in understanding the metal must be absolutely clean, with a new rotary wire brush, then degreased, cleaned, and fluxed, a paraffin flux will help but a acid flux, (tinning butter) tends to work a bit better, youll need to keep the area your working on heated and constantly refluxed, a 6" square pad with about 12 layers of denim, and heat resistant gloves are mandatory, and having the pads surface soaked in paraffin helps smooth the lead which should be about 30% tin and the auto body metal must be constantly brushed with acid flux.
lead won,t stick to steel, lead will stick to tinned steel so flux and a lead tin solder on very clean steel is used


dolly1.jpg

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-7-piece-prof ... r-set.html
dolly2.jpg

http://www.eastwood.com/soft-flame-propane-torch.html
dolly3.jpg

http://www.eastwood.com/file-holder-fle ... -file.html
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theres a miss conception that you fill in dents with the tinned lead, thats almost a myth, the fact is you were expected to bend, weld,cut or replace damaged metal to almost factory condition, then and only then fill in the seams and minor surface flaws with the tinned lead. but remember the practice is from a time when actually fixing the damage to a much larger degree rather than just covering the reworked metal up with bondo, was the norm, not the exception.
youll need to work in a well ventilated area as theres lots of smoke from hot flux and hot lead vapors not good to breath


READ THRU THE LINKS!
http://www.tptools.com/p/493%2C201_Auto ... older.html

http://www.ehow.com/how_7837521_use-lea ... iller.html

http://www.automedia.com/Getting_the_Le ... 041001ld/1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BsDxqb2p5OM

http://1956f100.com/General/lead_solder_filling.htm

http://www.ehow.com/how_4693422_do-lead-body-work.html

http://www.tptools.com/p/464,201_Starte ... r-Kit.html

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HtvtNJnn7Do

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-body-solder- ... h-dvd.html

http://www.millerwelds.com/resources/ar ... -GMAW-GTAW

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_mpQtzFjC4

http://freespace.virgin.net/tommy.sandham/leading.htm

http://www.eastwood.com/ew-tinning-butter-1-lb-jar.html

tinning1.jpg

the heated and cleaned surface is tinned and flushed with the tinning butter/flux
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tinning3.jpg

tinning4.JPG

once the surface is completely tinned,and coated with the tinning butter or flux that allows the tinned lead to adhere to the steel in the body work, the mix of hot tinned lead is wiped into and over the joints and surface irregularities, then a draw file and sand paper are used to smooth the surface for primer coating

How to Use Lead for Body Filler
By Paul Miceli, eHow Contributor

Print this article

How to Use Lead for Body Filler thumbnail
Oxyacetylene torches are ideal for melting lead onto auto body panels.

Although body filler is widely used in the automotive repair industry as a finishing surface on body panels, older vehicles are often brought back to shape using lead. Modern vehicles tend to use thinner metals, which can cause elasticity in panels when heat is applied. However, classic cars with a thicker gauge are often rectified using lead filler techniques. When lead is used as filler, a scratch-free metal finish can be achieved and there is no risk of the surface splitting or cracking after long-term exposure to ultraviolet sunlight.
Other People Are Reading

How to Repair an Auto Body With Lead
How to Use Lead As a Filler

Things You'll Need

P40-grit sanding disc
P80-grit sanding disc
Random orbital sander

Show (8) More
Instructions

1

Sand down the dented area to bare metal using a P40-grit sanding disc on a random orbital sander. Ensure all traces of paint and primer are removed to help the lead adhere to the surface of the panel correctly. Place a metal dolly behind the dent and tap the other side with a metal flip to lift it out. Continue until the majority of the dent has been removed.
2

Wipe the surface of the panel with a cloth soaked in degreaser to move grease and oils. Light an oxyacetylene torch and apply gentle heat over the dent to warm the panel. Keep the oxyacetylene torch moving at all times to avoid burning through the metal. Once the panel is warm, apply gentle heat to the end of the lead bar and place the end of it at the center point of the dent.


3

Continue to apply a gentle heat at the point where the auto body panel and lead bar meet until a paste is formed. Roll the wrist slightly as you move along the length of the dent to twist the lead onto the panel and to stop it from dripping onto the floor. Continue adding lead until the entire dent has been filled. At this stage, the main concern is simply to have enough lead on the panel to work with.
4

Take a wooden paddle and add more heat to the applied lead. As the lead softens, dab it gently with the flat side of the wooden paddle to create a flat surface on the auto body panel. Ensure the lead spreads out beyond the perimeter of the dent, and don't worry if there is a slight surplus above the panel surface as this can be removed at a later stage.
5

Leave the lead to cool until the surface of the panel can be touched by hand. Take a metal dreadnought file and place it flat on the panel over any surplus layers of lead. Move the file back and forth while applying light pressure to bring the lead down to a flat, even surface. Sand out any remaining scratches with a P80-grit sanding disc to complete the repair.

a few other tools and some related info, that can come in handy with auto body repairs

http://www.harborfreight.com/1-4-quarte ... 93389.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/pack-of-10 ... 96550.html
http://www.harborfreight.com/air-die-gr ... 99698.html
http://www.welders-direct.com/mm5/merch ... ory_Code=M
http://www.welders-direct.com/mm5/merch ... Code=m-mig
http://www.harborfreight.com/3-piece-lo ... -6002.html
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g ... dia/images
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-g1851
http://www.mig-welding.co.uk/forum/show ... php?t=7845
http://www.skinpins.com/fastclecotemp.html
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lgEIVUVLrnQ
http://fergusoncoachbuilding.blogspot.com/
 
I have always wanted to try & lead body repair.
Never seen anyone do it. All bodyman I have ever known says Bondo is superior. But I agree leading is better still.
But the Big 3 auto makers all used leaded seams in the 1/4 panel sail sections or B - C pillars during the 1940's to late 1970's.
Going to try leading myself someday.
Perhaps on my 1963 Pontiac Grand Prix.
Thick sheetmetal on that 63 G.P.

BR
 
the secret , to using an old school lead/solder joint is in the metal surface prep. which must be 100# clean and free of any contaminants and then fluxed with the tinning butter and solder applied to form a firm mechanically locked surface for the lead to bond too, you must use the 30% solder & 70% lead filler that will bond to the steel once its tinned, if the steel is not coated with a bonded solder base the lead won,t stick. Hot molten lead won,t stick directly to steel, it beads up, but with a good smooth solder bases coat the lead filler flows and bonds. but keep in mind you generally have to have all the surfaces well prepped and fluxed and tinned with solder and keep the filler metal hot enough to smear like cream cheese or peanut butter on toast.
that process take time experience and a great deal of cleaning so its a good deal easier and cheaper to use bondo , which will not provide nearly the same mechanical grip or rigidity or corrosion resistance, but it is faster and cheaper and easier to apply



http://www.eastwood.com/body-solder-sti ... DE=1SE1532

http://www.amazon.com/dp/B003745IW6/?ta ... 0ll6a61d_p


Body Solder Application Guidelines from eastwood



Background
Traditional lead-based body solder has been the choice of restorers and customizers for over 80 years for filling seams, leveling uneven body work, and blending-in custom features. Even the best polyester body fillers available today cannot match the superior adhesion, strength and overall durability that body solder provides. The following article will compare the benefits of lead-based body solder vs. lead-free body solder, and provide a step-by-step application guide for applying body solder.

Leaded vs. Lead-Free Body Solder
Traditional leaded body solder bars consist of 30% tin and 70% lead. This mix produces a solder that is easily applied to vertical and horizontal surfaces with a relatively low spreadable range (361° to 489°F). Tensile strength (the amount of force required to pull a substance apart) of leaded solder is 6,140 psi.

Body solders containing lead MUST be leveled by filing -- sanding is never an option, because sanding lead-based body solder would put toxic lead dust in the air, and grit from the sandpaper may embed in the solder and cause corrosion.

Because of the inherent danger associated with lead-based body solder, lead-free body solder was developed as a safe alternative.

Over the years, we’ve used a variety of lead-free body solders while restoring vintage cars. All the lead-free solders we tried would turn to liquid and run off the panel before any shaping could be done.

However, Eastwood sells a lead-free formulation that is much easier to use than even leaded body solder. We were able to readily apply as much solder as we wanted to the vertical and horizontal surfaces of a fender without it running onto the floor.

Lead-free body solders available in the past would typically require much higher heat to melt and were very difficult to keep on anything other than a horizontal surface. But Eastwood’s lead-free body solder has a spreadable range of 428° to 932°F (220° to 505°C) and a tensile strength greater than 9,000 psi. The increased strength makes this lead-free solder more appropriate for building-up door and other panel edges, and style lines. Leveling can be done by filing and sanding, since there are no lead particles to be dispersed. (Be sure to wear a dust mask as you should for any metal-grinding operation.)

This Eastwood formulation is one of the few solders that can actually be powder-coated and cured at 400°F (with accurate temperature control) without deforming. The fact that the lead-free solder can withstand powder-coating temperatures is a big benefit because it provides an alternative to Lab Metal for filling irregularities in iron and steel parts that will be powder-coated. Keep in mind that most of Eastwood's powders are cured at 400°F -- this is 28 degrees less than where this solder starts to soften. The solder is weak at 400°F but will not deform.

Getting Started - How to Determine if a Panel can be Soldered?
Once all coatings have been removed from the surface to bare clean steel, heat the area with a propane or MAPP gas torch. If the panel sinks as heat is applied, it should not be soldered. The way the panel reacts to heat indicates the stresses that were imbued into the metal when it was manufactured. Exposure to heat can actually produce stress fractures in some steels, so be sure to only use a sufficient amount of heat to melt the solder.

Avoid soldering perforated panels because the flux residue on the back of the metal will cause accelerated corrosion. This problem usually shows up as a swelling in the repair area a few months or years later as the forming rust underneath expands. For this same reason, seams that are only partially welded should not be soldered. Seams should be completely welded to prevent acidic flux residue from becoming trapped.

Step-by-Step Soldering Process (For Leaded and Lead-free Body Solder)
1) First, the steel needs to be clean, bare metal, free of any coating, plating, or rust. A Nylon Cleaning Wheel like our Cleaning Disc 31095 does a gentler job of cleaning the surface than a grinder, without unnecessarily removing metal. Be sure to clean a few inches beyond where the solder will be applied. Wipe the surface with PRE Painting Prep or acetone to make sure the surface is free of grease and oil.

2) Apply the tinning compound (or flux if you are using the lead-free solder). This is typically a fairly thick mix of tin powder and zinc chloride. It usually requires a little stirring to get all of the solids evenly distributed. Once stirred, the flux is applied, slightly beyond where the solder is to be applied. The surface is then heated with a propane or MAPP gas torch until the fluxed surface takes on a silvery-brown foam look. When this happens, take a clean white cotton cloth and wipe away surplus flux. You should be left with a bright silver tinned coating.

3) Clean the tinned surface. Most of the cleaning is done by using a clean white cotton cloth dipped in hot water. This is most effective while the surface is still hot from the tinning process. A surprising amount of residue can be removed simply by rinsing with hot water, since the residue is basically a type of salt. It’s beneficial to follow this rinse by scrubbing the surface with a dilute solution of baking soda and water to neutralize any acid residues, and then thoroughly water-rinse.

4) Apply the solder. The heat from a propane or MAPP torch works fine here. Basically train the heat on the surface and the tip of the solder bar with the solder bar touching the tinned surface at about a 45 degree angle. As the tip of the solder bar starts to melt, deposit nodules of solder on the surface. Try to apply a bit more solder than what you think will be required to level the surface. It’s possible to hold a few bars together when filling large areas. It’s much easier to remove surplus solder than to try to add additional solder. Avoid the tendency to over-heat the surface, otherwise all of the solder will end up on the floor.

5) Lube the solder paddles with the tallow or lube. The lube prevents the soft solder from sticking to the paddle. Heat the solder gently until it slightly dulls and starts to look a little smoother. Immediately, gently, use the paddle to push the solder into the basic shape you need.

6) After the surface cools, use the flat flexible file to refine the shape. Even though this file is a coarse 8 teeth per inch, it leaves a smooth surface. The solder files much more quickly than the surrounding steel so check the shape frequently to prevent undercutting the solder. It’s important to remember that lead-based solder should not be sanded because it puts fine toxic lead dust in the air and imbedded abrasive can cause corrosion. Lead-free solder can be sanded with appropriate eye and respiratory protection.

7) Once the surface has been shaped to the proper contour, wash the repair area and the surfaces surrounding it with a baking soda and water solution to neutralize any residual acid from the flux operation. It’s a good idea to follow this with a wipe down using Fast-Etch Rust Remover. This will eliminate any small pits. Wipe the surface with PRE Painting Prep or Acetone and dry with a clean soft cloth.

8) At this point a skim coat of polyester body filler can be applied to get the contour exactly right.
 
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youll find reading thru this link useful

look closely at each photo


BTW ILL SAVE YOU HOURS AND HOURS OF WORK WITH THIS TIP,

http://www.gmptools.com/nf/04320.htm
STEARNE
http://www.gmptools.com/nf/62461.htm
WIPE PADS

you can make a pad out of about 12 layers of denim cloth, soak it in STEARINE and use it to wipe lead when its hot almost like bondo, over metal surfaces, but the commercial pads and STEARINE work the best.
IF you use a large area torch tip, this will allow you to smooth the surface much more precisely than the wood tools, but you must use constant dips of melted STEARINE on the pads surface as a surface lube to prevent the denim from sticking to the solder/lead, and yeah! do it in a well ventilated area , paraffin smokes when hot


LOOK THRU AND READ THE LINKS

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/080 ... ewall.html

http://www.streetrodderweb.com/tech/080 ... to_01.html

lbw1.jpg

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lbw4.jpg

lbw5.jpg


lbw6.jpg

lbw7.jpg

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lbw9.jpg

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Ive worked on hundreds of body repairs and minor body mods on standard cars like chevelles and camaros , GTO, lemans, and road runner's cudas etc.
a plazma cutter and a mig or tig welder and a donor car or at least the matching panels would be a huge help.
one of the few advantages working on corvettes have

is theres no potential for rust on body panels
either smc or fiberglass may have several other problems,
but rust fortunately is not the major issue.

The Corvette began production in 1953. The body panels are made from fiberglass and resin using two basic methods and continuously improved over the years. These methods are referred to as "press molded panels" and "sheet molded composites" or SMC.



Press Molded Panels
Press molded panels were produced from 1953 through the 1972 model year. The fiberglass and resin were hand laid or sometimes sprayed into molds. These molds were then heated and placed under very high pressure. This process resulted in panels having a uniform thickness and finish.

SMC
SMC panels were produced from 1973 to the C6 model. SMC panels were created from heated high pressure molds that compress a mixture of fiberglass, resin and catalyst. This new process created panels that were much smoother than press molded panels, provide tighter tolerances and a superior finish.


Carbon Fiber
Carbon fiber was used on some C6 ZR1 panels. The hood, front spoiler and roof panels were all made using carbon fiber composites. Carbon fiber panels were significantly stronger and lighter than SMC or press molded fiberglass panels. Carbon fiber had a greater tensile and compressive strength than fiberglass at a lower density resulting in stronger panels at lower weights.

176.jpg

lbw14.jpg
 
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some related videos well worth watching






http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ItzvomcyoLs

Ive worked on hundreds of body repairs and minor body mods on standard cars like chevelles and camaros , GTO, lemans, and road runner's cudas etc.
a plazma cutter and a mig or tig welder and a donor car or at least the matching panels would be a huge help.
one of the few advantages working on corvettes have

is theres no potential for rust on body panels
either smc or fiberglass may have several other problems,
but rust fortunately is not the major issue.

The Corvette began production in 1953. The body panels are made from fiberglass and resin using two basic methods and continuously improved over the years. These methods are referred to as "press molded panels" and "sheet molded composites" or SMC.



Press Molded Panels
Press molded panels were produced from 1953 through the 1972 model year. The fiberglass and resin were hand laid or sometimes sprayed into molds. These molds were then heated and placed under very high pressure. This process resulted in panels having a uniform thickness and finish.

SMC
SMC panels were produced from 1973 to the C6 model. SMC panels were created from heated high pressure molds that compress a mixture of fiberglass, resin and catalyst. This new process created panels that were much smoother than press molded panels, provide tighter tolerances and a superior finish.


Carbon Fiber
Carbon fiber was used on some C6 ZR1 panels. The hood, front spoiler and roof panels were all made using carbon fiber composites. Carbon fiber panels were significantly stronger and lighter than SMC or press molded fiberglass panels. Carbon fiber had a greater tensile and compressive strength than fiberglass at a lower density resulting in stronger panels at lower weights.

176.jpg
 
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I'm amazed that this seems to be a dying or even lost art form, I spent decades doing this type of repair work and I was looked at as some kind of sourcer and master of black magical arts when I made a couple rather simple body work repairs on a bodys old school hot rod after he found that several local auto body shops refused to do the job correctly and informed him they would use only BONDO....and like he was aware BONDO has near ZERO structual strength, whle a properly sealed leaded and tinned joint can last for multiple decades!
yes it requires special tools and supplies but its not that overly difficult, to learn or do, it just takes practice, and experience




http://www.tptools.com/Tinning-Past...ign=8036-176&gclid=CMjsqMeppNACFYZehgodt0sBDQ

http://maidstonecoatings.com/product-category/auto-body-repair/leading-soldering/

https://www.google.com/shopping/product/9128704612635188193?lsf=seller:8740,store:9742068831214621397&q=map+gas+torch+home+depot&hl=en&mid=syrjdvt4k|dc_mtid_8903tb925190_pcrid_50645156379_pkw__pmt__product_300055608_slid_&lsft=gclid:CJWYz_6opNACFchehgodW0ALaw&prds=oid:1680242187758408953&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiN9Nr-qKTQAhXFYyYKHWHAD_8QrRIIQA

http://gmptools.com/nf/index_lead.htm

http://gmptools.com/nf/04320.htm

http://gmptools.com/nf/07151.htm

http://gmptools.com/nf/62461.htm

http://gmptools.com/nf/70116.htm

http://gmptools.com/nf/61566.htm

http://maidstonecoatings.com/product-category/auto-body-repair/leading-soldering/
 
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