got an older engine with sludge?

[grumpyvette]

If youve got an older engine with a good deal of sludge from less than ideal maintenance..and if the engine RUNS ,Id pull the valve covers and inspect the condition of the engine, if its moderate, I,d drain the current oil, replace the oil filter, and throw two quarts of marvel mystery oil into the engine, along with several quarts of a good 10w30 oil, so the dip stick reads correctly and let it run for a few hours and change the oil and oil filter, again, , now do that several times,over the next few days, adding two quarts of marvel mystery oil in place of two qts of the regular oil, at each oil change and changing the oil and filter after a few days then,pull the valve covers after a few of these oil changes , youll find most of the crud has dissolved, after one or two changes of oil and new oil filters, as the marvel mystery oil added to the fresh regular oil has lots of solvents and detergents in it, resulting in an oil filter that quickly fills up with the freed up crud as it breaks free! so use cheaper , standard oil , mixed with the MMO,as its only going to be in the engine a few days to carry crud to the oil filter

youll be amazed at the amount of crud that breaks free and how fast the oil turns into slime as the sludge gets taken into solution by the detergent oil mix, oils with high paraffin content are especially prone to building sludge if the engines not seen frequent oil changes and long drives as short hops don,t build the heat necessary to get the crud dissolved, oil must reach 215F to effectively burn off moisture that quickly forms acids from combustion gases if left in the oil.
oil heated past about 245F tends to eventually break down, so you need to maintain the engine with regular oil and filter changes and run it long enough to burn off moisture that forms from condensation.
youll occasionally see advice saying to pour a couple quarts of diesel fuel in an engine after you drain the oil and let it drain out before replacing the oil filter and oil, this process has potential benefits but also some risks , Id avoid this as the risks tend to be higher than the potential benefits, and I darn sure would not run the engine with a couple quarts of diesel fuel mixed with the oil as Ive seen posted as a cure for sludge as thats a sure way to screw up bearings and ring seal.

now if you pull the valve cover and the waxy sludge build-up , that looks like some one mixed a gallon of old rotten axle grease with peanut butter,covers the rockers, and you can barely see the heads it would be smart to pull the intake ,and front timing cover and oil pan ,along with the valve covers and start a rebuild because you can easily see the engines never had decent regular maintenance and its very likely too have excessive wear on moving parts, bearings and rings as all that sludge is a sure indication its never had frequent oil changes or decent oil used, but I know some guys will try to flush the engine out by putting a large oil change drain pan under the oil pan, then removing the drain plug and repeatedly pouring a couple gallons of diesel fuel mixed 50%/50% with cheap oil repeatedly thru the engine to try to dissolve the majority of the sludge that formed before they do the oil change routine listed above, in this thread, and yeah occasionally the flush out, works, but usually it breaks loose a ton of old crud and you find you need a rebuild anyway , if you go that route change oil and oil filters very frequently the first couple days as theres going to be lots of loose crud in the engine

 

[grumpyvette]

http://www.enginebuildermag.com/Article ... udge_.aspx

The Story Of Why Engine Oil Becomes Engine Sludge


By Don Fedak


Fresh engine oil is a clear, free-flowing liquid blend of base stock and additives that contains no fuel, water, coolant, dirt, or other contaminants. In engines that have failed prematurely, the oil has very often been transformed into a high viscosity deposit of brown or black goo, commonly referred to as "sludge."

When regular engine oil changes are neglected, normally free-flowing lubricating oil breaks down, becomes contaminated, ceases to flow, and is transformed into a thick soup of waste products. That’s when serious engine damage is imminent.

Why does engine oil break down, combine with contaminants, and form sludge deposits? Chemistry teaches that engine oil is unstable and decomposes in the presence of oxygen at high temperature. The process, called oxidation, occurs naturally after exposure to normal operating conditions for extended periods of time and is accelerated by exposure to severe operating conditions or to excessively high temperatures. Alternatively, accelerated oxidation may be triggered by a combination of any or all of these factors.

During oxidation, the chemical bonds that define the oil molecules are broken, and some of the reaction products accumulate and interact to form a highly viscous complex mixture of solids, liquids, and gases that contain a variety of solid carbon-based dirt and metallic particles, as well as liquid coolant, fuel, oil and water droplets.

But what can we possibly learn from a sludged engine?

Consider our reliable 40-year-old 10-hp shop compressor that has delivered zillions of cubic feet of pressurized air daily from its ambient temperature shelter. While the electric motor and the V-belts have been replaced twice, the only other routine service this air-cooled V4 compressor has received, other than having the condensed water drained from the tank, is an occasional oil change. When the used, unfiltered HD-30 oil is drained from its crankcase it shows no evidence of contamination or oxidation and looks like fresh oil.

A typical internal combustion engine is just an air compressor in which fuel is mixed with compressed air and then burned. The combustion process generates heat and a variety of reaction products, some of which enter the crankcase as blow-by and contaminate the oil, e.g., fuel, soot, water and other normal reactants, products and byproducts.

Even though the oil temperature is high enough to boil off and extract all the water and other volatile contaminants via the PCV system, this crankcase broth will inevitably change into a deposit that does not drain when the oil is changed. Air-cooled gas or diesel engines are just air compressors in which the engine oil is subject to oxidation because they are exposed to higher temperatures and contamination by combustion products. If the engine is liquid-cooled, the engine oil may also become contaminated with coolant.

Lesson #1: Sludge deposits in internal combustion engines can indicate either stop-and-go driving, lack of proper maintenance, too low or too high an oil temperature or oil contamination.

Sludge formation is not a new problem. In fact, sludge deposits limited the durability of early internal combustion engines. Over the years, oil base stocks were improved, detergent oil additives were developed to keep microscopic sludge-forming solid particles in suspension, anti-oxidation additives were developed to slow the formation of these sludge deposit precursors, and engine oil filters were fitted to remove suspended solid particles from the oil stream and slow the formation of flow restricting sludge deposits on internal surfaces.

Changes in engine oil formulation and treatment accelerated with the introduction of "permanent" glycol-based coolant, another oil contaminant that may accelerate sludge formation. With the recent increased popularity of wet-sleeved engines, as well as the introduction of alternative but incompatible coolants, we are seeing more engine bearing failures.

Lesson #2: Sludge deposits may be due to inferior oil, deterioration of the oil additives or contamination by coolant.

When "detergent oils" first appeared, everyone’s engine repair business increased. Tired, worn out engines, full of sludge deposits because they had always been serviced with non-detergent oils, were ill advisedly transfused with detergent oil, which promptly attacked the sludge deposits. Engine bearing surfaces were flooded with oil containing a high concentration of newly suspended sludge particles. And during the phase-in of detergent engine oils, a number of chemical elixirs for "engine oil desludging" appeared. With current engines, we often encounter similar failures when engines are accidentally overfilled and loosen normally benign engine deposits. Unless you’re very young or your principal residence is a cave, none of this should be news.

Lesson #3: Absence of sludge deposits may indicate the crankcase has been "flushed," especially if fresh oil contains an excessive concentration of solids.

Some years ago we sold some oil, a filter and a pan gasket for a 366 truck engine to a customer who initially was asked to do a routine oil change. He eventually had to remove the oil pan because the engine oil had thickened and would not flow out of the drain hole. Once he removed the pan bolts, the oil pan, very heavy because it was full of thick black goo, fell to the floor. The bozo who had previously contracted to "service" this fleet vehicle had repeatedly neglected to drain the old oil when he changed the filter and topped up the level of the used oil. Exposed to heat for an extended period of time, the old oil eventually oxidized and transformed into a black mass resembling thick molasses or Le Brea tar pits’ crude.

Lesson #4: Always be suspicious of maintenance information.

Today, we see a lot of sludged engines because of two different factors, the trend to ever-higher engine oil temperatures (oil coolers help) and the tendency to neglect or postpone routine maintenance, especially in the case of leased vehicles. When a yuppy BMW owner volunteered that his "Service Engine" light was designed to indicate when he should add some engine oil, I suggested that he might want to change it to read: "Too Late." Engine noises and low oil pressure are obvious indications of inadequate engine bearing lubrication. So, when oil sludge is also found, overextended drain intervals, elevated oil temperatures and/or contamination should be considered as the most likely causes. But there are always exceptions.

Experienced custom engine builders understand that all sludge deposits are not necessarily due to abuse and neglect. When we find a lot of sludge in an engine, we always try to pinpoint the cause(s), do what we can to avoid a repeat occurrence and advise the customer or the installer how to minimize engine sludge formation.

Today, as in earlier times, new and remanufactured engine durability is directly related to the recognition, control and elimination of all factors that support engine sludge formation including, but not limited to, lack of proper maintenance, inappropriate oil temperature, use of an inferior engine oil, and engine oil contamination.

 

[mathd]

I did a sludge cleanup once, used seafoam in the crankcase worked well. I hear lots of people saying ATF oil in the crankcase is the best working solution, wondering how well it do for this application?

 

[grumpyvette]

ATF is NOT ideal its not designed to be used in direct contact with combustion products, its ok as a temporary engine flush if you just want to pour it thru the engine and let it drain, but a high detergent oil like MARVEL MYSTERY OIL is a MUCH better choice, as its designed to both break down ,lubricate and hold crud in suspension , so its transported to the oil filter and trapped and held , until the dissolve sludge, can be removed, but that requires the oil filters be replace frequently.
I generally use a mix of 1 quart of marvel mystery oil and 7 quarts of a good synthetic or at least a top brand of 10w30 oil in my engines, and drain and replace the oil and filter at least every 7K-8K miles, if you follow that procedure your engine remains looking nearly new internally.
my current corvette engines over 9 years old,and its got in excess of 70K miles and looks brand new internally
BG makes a sludge removal product that works
https://www.bgprod.com/catalog/engine/bg-dynamic-engine-cleaner-rinse-oil/

mild sludge that most older muscle car engines will have,( LIKE THIS PICTURE ABOVE )this will generally be mostly removed with the marvel mystery oil and frequent oil change procedure

result of a serious lack of regular filter and oil changes

OBVIOUSLY THIS ENGINES OWNER FELT OIL CHANGES WERE OPTIONAL



lets clear up something here
COOLANT temps can run 180f-210f with 180f-190f preferred
OIL TEMPS should generally run 10-15 degrees higher, at, 190f-220f and NEED to exceed 215F occasionally too burn off acids and moisture

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=117

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1334

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=6327

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2102
you can try too debate the rate moisture in oil dissipates if you choose , but I,m just pointing out that testing by several oil companys and G.M. have stated in the past that PHYSICS REQUIRES the oil temp reach and stay at or above 215F for several minutes to FORCE the trapped moisture to convert the acidic molecules to be converted back to oil and steam,and force the calcium in the oil to absorb the acidic content of the trapped exhaust gasses.
keep in mind that does NOT MEAN the oil in the sump must reach 215F it means the CIRCULATING OIL FLOW must cycle the oil continuously, long enough so that ALL the oil volume at some point cycles repeatedly over components that will raise its temp to above 215F, (not the same thing as raising all the oil in the sump,too and keeping it over 215F)
keep in mind the rings,valve springs, rockers and pistons normally run significantly hotter than other components, so a constant circulation of the oil flow is critical to the process.
a standard SBC or BBC flows between 2-6 gallons or oil thru the bearings and lifters per minute oil is obviously cooler in the sump than when draining over valve springs or trapped on piston to bore surfaces, so SO TOTAL RUNNING TIME and the percentage of the oil being heated obviously will effect the burn-off and cleaning process efficiency. you just as obviously need to be able to JUDGE when the engines run long enough and you only have a oil temp gauge to use,as a guide, so if the oil temp gauge reaches and stays near 200F or above for about 10 minutes you can be fairly sure most of the oil at some point has cycled at above 215F , if it reaches 215F on average in the sump,you can be certain that all the oil has at some point exceeded that temp. What I,m trying to point out is that running a car engine long enough to burn off the moisture is critical to long term durability, and you can,t do that until circulating oil runs in an engine thats up to operating temps for several minutes (10-15 minutes would be a safe minimum)and that generally means the engine oil temp reaches and exceeds 200F-215F on the gauge

 

[grumpyvette]

" GRUMPY?, This is not a performance question but I think a simple one for those who know. I have a friend who drives a foreign 4cyl car. He is 78yrs old so doesn't race the car. He took the car to a mechanic for some repair along with a "noisy lifter". The mechanic put in what he said was one qt. of transmission fluid (over filled the crankcase) and it stopped the noise. I don't know if he was told this or saw the mechanic put it in. Will this work? "


DON,T USE TRANS FLUID as OIL , it lacks the required additives to function correctly, its not designed to endure the heat levels oil is designed for, long term.if the addition of a quart of trans fluid quite the lifter, noise, chances are excellent the engine had significant sludge or was low on oil, a oil change and new oil filter would be the best route,but if your just going to add a quart of something, use a quart of MARVEL MYSTERY OIL, its a high quality thin automotive oil designed with extra crud solvents to loosen and dissolve sludge

 

[grumpyvette]

Grumpy I had a lifter start tapping in my 1962 pick-up trucks 6 cylinder engine, I was shocked to find an incredible amount of wax like sludge build-up under the valve covers when I went to adjust the valves as I have changed oil about every 6000 miles since I bought the car over 30 years ago and it has less than 160K original miles

160,000 miles in 52 years , is less than 3100 miles a year, and especially if you use a high paraffin content oil, like quaker state, and seldom get the engine temps up to over 215F for more than 15-30 minutes at a time,to burn of moisture in the oil from condensation as the truck obviously sits for days or even weeks between uses, as that mileage points to use thats more than likely less than 60 miles a week, your unlikely to allow the moisture in the engine to burn off or waxes in the engine oil to burn off completely, oil that never fully reaches operating temps, well, it can then more easily form sludge.
Id suggest changing the oil adding a couple cans of MMO and taking the truck out at least once a week on the highway too drive at highway speeds 70 mph for at least 30 minutes and do oil changes every 4000 miles with those longer WIX OIL FILTERS and used a non-high paraffin oil like valvoline, or texaco, or mobile 1

if you have a reasonably friendly NAPA parts counter guy ask him to look up the longer length version of what ever WIX oil filter fits your particular engine,IF YOU HAVE THE ROOM TO INSTALL A LONGER FILTER in most cases theres several filter lengths and the longer versions add capacity, cooling and increase filter medium surface area, all good things especially if you need to trap potential sludge build up or metallic debris, buy a decent strong, constantly re-useable magnet to attach to the bottom of the filter and you significantly increase its ability to remove crud even further.

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RZ0X84

heres a helpful diagnostic tool,

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... ilter_fun/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-9 ... toview=sku

its basically a heavy duty can opener , or an oil filter cutter designed to make it easy to internally inspect oil filters, by allowing you to remove the filter element , from inside the surrounding (CAN) for close visual inspection.

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=120&p=28636&hilit=magnets+screens#p28636

 

[87vette81big]

I really like Marvel Mystery Oil lately too Grumpy.
Always have some around now on hand.

 

[dfarr67]

In colder climates- failure to give the vehicle a good run to clear condensation results in sludge, with newer alum engines it's not uncommon here for the water to freeze in the oil pump and take out the engine. Good synthetic oil, regular change intervals- with more in severe service.....saves money.
I use 0-40 synthetic in winter (-40C) oil pan heater, block heater, trickle charger- and once in awhile a good run on the hwy to cook things out. Summer I use 15-40 diesel which is high detergent- I would favor taking any covers off and cleaning what you can then gradually flushing out sludge rather than try a one shot cleaner.

 

[grumpyvette]

yes failure to get the engine oil temps up too over 215f and keep it at that temp level for at least a few minutes every few days, frequently results in moisture accumulating , acids forming and sludge forming, obviously changing oil at reasonable intervals also helps, running a quart of a high detergent oil like MMO, also seems to help reduce sludge build-up by keeping a great deal of the crud held in suspension where its easily transported and eventually trapped by the oil filter rather than forming ever thicker layers of sediment, after each, heating and cooling cycle. and yeah! that means you'll need to replace the oil filters frequently to remove that trapped crud, so don,t let the oil filter changes go more than about 7K-9K,
modern oil may go longer but its smart to change the filters out, to remove the trapped crud.
in an ideal world youll change oil and filter out every 5K miles.
yes the additives in the the quart of MMO you can add to your crank case oil, do a good job of breaking up and holding in suspension oil sludge and transporting it to the oil filter

the light gray sludge, inside valve covers, is frequently the result of small quantities of moisture trapped in the engine ,
resulting in most cases ,from letting it sit without it being run.
if it clears up, after the engines run for 10-20 minutes,
and you don,t see indications of its return the next day, your most likely fine.
if you park a car with a hot engine in a cold garage or outside over night, it is rather common for moisture too collect inside the valve covers,
this is one reason its generally a good idea for your engines oil temps to exceed 215F for a few minutes or more,
every time its run, as it takes several minutes running time at that temp to vaporize all the micro moisture,
trapped in the engine if its not run on a rather consistent and preventative basis

 

[87vette81big]

That reminds me Grumpy.
I have to buy some more Marvel Mystery oil.
I am out.
Think I will buy the 1 gallon jug of M.M. this weekend.
Even use it in my riding lawnmower now.