guys lets start a class project

Grumpy

The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer.
Staff member
I recently had a rather detailed discussion with a friend that really wanted to up-grade to mpfi
but after looking into whats required he decided the cost may out weight the potential benefits.
hes already purchased the MPFI intake injectors and throttle body,
KEEP IN MIND THATS MPFI...
which has AN INDIVIDUAL INJECTOR FOR EACH CYLINDER,
LOCATED IN THE INTAKE RUNNER ,
FOR EACH CYLINDER

,NOT THROTTLE BODY INJECTION
which places several fuel injectors in the throttle body to spray fuel similar to how a carburetor disperses fuel,
from a centralized location on the manifold plenum.

its the controller and wire harness and sensors that seem to be his major issue here!
now I freely admit that the costs are far higher but the benefits are there so its simply a question of how to bye-pass or reduce the cost of the components required yet still produce a desirable combo fully capable of easy tuning and precise fuel management and ignition curve controls.
theres certainly ways to buy components and build a custom EFI CPU.
so lets discuss options, experiences failures , successes and ideas, cost and difficulty in building an EFI control computer that can be easily tuned on a kick butt, EFI intake , and one that can be easily used on a super charged engine , the sensors, fuel system, fuel pump, matched ignition etc. if thats required
Id also point out that any decent controller should have the ability to be programmed too use BOTH low and high resistance fuel injectors and options too allow several kinds of sensors (TPS,IAC,COOLANT HEAT,PLENUM VACUUM, AIR TEMP,IGNITION ADVANCE,ETC.) too be used if its going to versatile rather than single brand

compatible


related info and threads

http://megasquirt.info/

http://www.msextra.com/feature-xref.html


http://www.msextra.com/


engine control
https://www.ampefi.com/product/ms3pro-plug-and-play-gm-ls-58x-engine-harness/
4L80e sub harness
https://www.ampefi.com/product/ampefi-transmission-controller-with-4l80e-subharness/
FUEL PUMP
https://www.ampefi.com/product/aeromotive-11101-a1000-fuel-pump/

http://www.shafiroff.com/chevy-power-adder/540-complete-engine-sc.php

http://www.powerperformancenews.com/tech-articles/going-big-vortech-supercharged-bbc/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/engines-drivetrain/0610ch-supercharged-engine-build/

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/en...rsepower-supercharged-chevy-big-block-engine/


http://www.hotrod.com/articles/ccrp-0801-540-big-block-chevy-engine/

http://www.tristarengines.com/catal...zcb4Y1waTtUSncB1hsTOKO0ssPMb6LEW00aApVl8P8HAQ

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/project-cars/sucp-0612-supercharged-496-motor/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/0712phr-blown-big-block-chevy-engine-build/

https://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

http://www.chevyhardcore.com/news/dyno-video-blown-big-block-with-mild-setup-makes-1375-horsepower/

https://www.diyautotune.com/support/faq/which-megasquirt/low-cost-diy-efi/

http://www.hotrod.com/articles/budget-electronic-fuel-injection/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-parts-and-a-logical-plan.7722/#post-68651

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ther-efi-intake-manifold-info.431/#post-32491

HOLLEY EFI INTAKE
https://www.holley.com/products/intakes/efi_manifolds/parts/300-563

300_563.jpg


holley throttle body
https://www.holley.com/products/fue...le_bodies/4_bbl_throttle_bodies/parts/112-587

holley 83 lb injectors
https://www.holley.com/products/fuel_systems/fuel_injection/injectors/parts/522-838

HERES A GOOD BIT OF RELATED INFO TO GET STARTED

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-the-agerage-joe-my-example.12851/#post-66611

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pco-5621pt/overview/
 
Last edited:
Looking into things a little deeper Grumpy an ECU such as mine may retail close to $2000 but what am I getting for that money not all ecus are created equal mind you as some are designed for different reasons. When I started my voyage into EFI I priced out all the components compared to what it cost to buy a kit. It was actually cheaper for me to buy the components if I was willing to go mega squirt not self tuning. If you look at any efi system and see that the controllers start to vary in price all over the place you need to look at what they can control and to what extent.

An ECU is a logic device first and fore most so it reads a condition and reacts to it just like they taught in Math. So different ECU's use different strategies to control fuel some can even control fuel and spark like mine can. Some can not do a full sequential but a batch fire method where it may fire 4 injectors at the same time. The same goes for the ignition waste spark. Now different stradegies require differ sensors. And of course we see trade offs like that guy who has a cam that does not create a stable MAP signal (vacuum) and it runs havoc on his self tuning ecu. There are tuning methods and ecu's that can switch between strategies to fix that.

I will give a rundown on my ecu seeing the info is readily available to me right now and I have familiarity of it
Pantera EFI 882C

Voltage Range 6V - 42V

Ignition Drivers- 8 IGBT/8TTL or mixed


Injector Drivers- 8 low/high (12) amp each


GPO Drivers- 4 (2) 8 amp (2) ¼ amp


Tachometer- 1 (12) v+ square wave


Crank Sensors- 2 Inductive or Hall


Camshaft Sensor- 1 Hall Effect


Temp Sensor Inputs- 2 1K pull up


Voltage Sensor Inputs- 2 TPS/ AUX


Amplified Sensor Inputs- 2 Dual EGO


Digital- 1 DMI


Internal Sensors- 3 MAP, BAP, BAT


A/D Accuracy- 12bit


Communication- 1 DB-9 RS-232


CAN 2.0- 1 144 nodes


Flash Ram- 32k Words


Flash Memory Logging- 8M-bit ( 4,096 pages)


Engine Configurations- 1-12 cylinders


2, 4, 6, stroke- even / odd fire


Engine Phases- 12 separate


Resolution of Timing- .25 degree <<<<<<<<<THIS IS AWESOME


Resolution of Injector- PW .001 <<<<<<<<<ALSO AWESOME BUT NOT AS AWESOME AS THE TIMING CONTROL


Temperature Range -40* C – 105* C


Benefits
Timing Table adjusted on laptop no more bushings or springs turning distributors take those parts out of equation vortec dummy Distributor used only to drive oil pump and tell ecu if on power stroke. No need for expensive model or expensive Ignition Box
Tune it in at track or Dyno to figure out MBT
Timing is accurate no more blue printing your distributor tabs or having timing change from gear walk.
Fuel Control no more changing Jets at the track cause temperature changed or different elevation.
Fuel Control low vacuum cam not a big deal except for brakes cause you are not relying on vacuum to pull fuel.
Fuel is atomized closer to valve and is cooler entering combustion chamber.
Controllers built in to features of ecu control NOS, Lock up, Electric Fan, Boost controller my ecu has 4 of them with different stradagies to control them. Anti lag
Once it is tuned it is done unless modified
Cold start

Down Falls
You already have a pile of expensive non fuel injected parts you have invested in Sell them to offset cost.
Fuel system needs modification they make this easier all the time but cheapest method run a return line. Needs be able to sustain higher pressures.
The controller is expensive but can replace expensive ignition parts even though can be ran cheaper if willing to give up some advantages.
Learning curve some people are scared or not wanting to try to understand
Dyno tune for maximum performance fast


How much is a good ignition setup? Compared it to a set of ls1 truck coils and for BBC/SBC app a used vortec distributor picked up a used vortec v6 one for under $20 on ebay
How much is your Intake and a good Carb cause comparing EFI to a cheapy is not fair?
How much is a quality fuel sytem for carb electric pump regulator? You need a fuel pump capable of efi pressure and Hp requirements look into bosch 044 pump also need a return line. Or you can get one of those remote fuel sump kits.
Efi Intake, Throttle Body, Injectors, fuel Rails, fittings, IAC is optional, at least one wideband kit 2 preferably (most guy like this anyways to tune), Temp sensors 2 needed manifold and coolant. Enough for now more tomorrow!!!
 
thank you!
thats a very good start on this thread!
and points out lots of areas that need to be carefully considered
the exact power level your trying to match will be a major factor, in selecting components but the way you go about calculating and correctly matching the power level is the critical skill,
as an experienced hot rodder ID start by matching the intake runner design you want to use to the cylinder heads , because your darn sure going to want the intake and heads to flow enough air to meet the engines intended power range, and you'll want to select injectors that can match the full potential air flow that the intended power range requires, do your math home work, carefully, because buying the wrong parts will be very expensive, and un-necessary, all the formula's are available and keep in mind its better to have a SLIGHTLY larger flow rate set of fuel injector,s and fuel pump installed in your car, than components that can,t supply enough fuel.
I frequently see guys swap to longer duration cams and high flow rate heads who never even consider the need for larger injectors or a larger fuel pump, who seem clueless as to why the stock fuel injectors can,t keep up with the new much higher air flow rate demand.
If you don,t know the basics of the engine your using the MPFI induction on,
how can you make a reasonable match you'll need to get it functioning correctly at the intended power level?


just for grins lets say the goal is 1000 hp.

if were building an injected 540 BBC that will require about a 160 GPH pump rated at 43 psi and ID use no less than AN#8 or 1/2" inside diameter fuel lines
ID be looking to use a
minimum of 80 lb-85 lb rated fuel injectors, and both high resistance and low resistance, so they could supply the race octane fuel at a 75%-85% duration pulse.
Id want intake runners that had a cross sectional area near 3.2 square inches
Id want to use a centrifical super charger and about 8.5:1 static compression
and heads that flow at least 370 cfm on the intake at .700 lift
a centrifugal super charger providing up to 15 lbs of boost
intake manifold runner length in the 10"-12" range would be close to ideal.
ID want 2 .125" header primaries 39" long and a 3.5" collector 20" long
a hydraulic roller cam similar too
http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.php?m=product_detail&p=24228
heads similar too
http://www.airflowresearch.com/315cc-bbc-rectangle-port-cylinder-head/


https://www.rceng.com/technical.aspx

USEFUL REFERENCE
THREADS

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculate-fuel-injector-size.1200/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-auto-elecrtrical-connectors.3105/#post-8272

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-big-a-fuel-pump-do-you-need.1939/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/setting-up-your-fuel-system.211/


http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...lay-switch-locations-and-info.728/#post-54562

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/what-kills-o2-sensors.3049/#post-53103

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ecu-functionality.10946/#post-48358

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ning-with-an-air-fuel-logger.6765/#post-25598

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...uble-shooting-flow-chart-info.596/#post-14674

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/types-of-fuel-injectors.3165/#post-8442

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...r-auto-elecrtrical-connectors.3105/#post-8272

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...o-flow-firsts-tpi-intake-etc.1052/#post-38996

http://www.wallaceracing.com/Calculators.htm

http://www.wallaceracing.com/chokepoint-rpm.php
 
Last edited:
So you want to understand more on EFI check the link out
Lets start with the 3 most common systems

Alpha-N: Runs off logic between throttle position and rpm to calculate injector pulse
Mass Airflow: A heated wire calculates air flow into the engine to calculate injector pulse
Speed density: Logic is load (MAP or vacuum) and rpm to calculate injector pulse
This a very generic description see link for more details.
http://www.hotrod.com/articles/electronic-fuel-injection-2/
 
I understand the theory from that link, but like I said I have no experience at all with fuel injection, I will watch this thread to see if I can pick up any knowledge. I am showing my ignorance here, but that manifold looks like something used for direct injected NO2!
 
I have read Greg Banish's Books and Jeff Hartman's also any one looking to learn should check your local library system or purchase through amazon. They are very informative to say the least. The tuning aspect is EFI is awesome I do suggest dyno time to speed the process up self tune leaves allot on the table in safety measures. You cannot self tune timing and timing holds allot of the power!!! You run a power adder timing control is a necessary evil and make sure the ecu you buy can control it. This will save you from having to buy a timing control device or in a turbo situation a boost controller. Do your homework look into forums where guys running the ecu you plan to get have it see what it's strengths and weaknesses are. I have read 3 out of the 4 books below and plan on reading the 4th one. Great info tell allot about tuning in them wether you are running a carb or looking at EFI these books give a wealth of knowledge. You got a great combo time to use it.

https://www.amazon.com/Modify-Automotive-Engine-Management-Systems/dp/0760343454/ref=sr_1_fkmr1_1?ie=UTF8&qid=1487168060&sr=8-1-fkmr1&keywords=efi+jeff+Hartman
51fc6mjBxyL__SX386_BO1,204,203,200_.jpg

https://www.amazon.com/Engine-Manag...=UTF8&qid=1487167741&sr=8-4&keywords=efi+book
untitled.png

https://www.amazon.com/Designing-Tu...=UTF8&qid=1487167741&sr=8-6&keywords=efi+book
1233434245.png

I have not read this one yet but think I will be soon
https://www.amazon.com/Performance-...=UTF8&qid=1487167741&sr=8-1&keywords=efi+book
untitled.png
 
geesus, that cam is .120 larger lift and 25 or more duration than mine or Indycars cam. Whooooow, and the heads pass us both airflow in the .350-.400 range. Geesus that engine would pull some tq and horses for sure. Hell, the exhaust flow passes our SBC heads intake flow at .500. I dont have it on fuel injection, 871 blower with 1000 cfm of carb and have 860hp and about 670 tq
 
I guess my inability with fuel injection shows, I simulated Individual Runner fuel injection and I am in 400 -500 hp. I simulated it with a single plane intake and 1100 carb and it came back up to about 755hp and 650tq. Scratching my head, have to listen and read more of the links.
 
THE most common mistake, most guys make when doing calculations
with virtual dyno software programs

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/virtual-dyno-software.2301/#post-53646

is use of the wrong data , you may have sellected two 750cfm carbs on a tunnel ram and expect them to flow 1500 cfm, but the fact is each of the two carbs now shares a comon plenum on one engine so the vacume each individual carb venturies sees is reduced significantly, OR
if you were to sellect individual runner mechanical or EFI stack injection, when you select
"Individual Runner fuel injection"in the calculation , each runner feeds a single cylinder, again this fails to use the correct calculation, individual runners acting as a ram tub must be significantly larger because they induce a pulsed or ram, inertial flow.
you can,t use the carb cfm, info, thats simply failing to use the correct flow calculations
Crower_Injectors.jpg

this is the result of failing to realize each
Individual Runner,
easily flows easily 320cfm to 450 cfm
(depending on each individual ram tube and throttle bore size )
UNLIKE a carburator which will have a listed
(and basically useless flow rating)

thus the minimum CFM youll use in the calculations is more than likely in the 320 x 8 or 2560cfm-to-3600 cfm flow range
so put 2600 cfm in for a SBC and 3200 CFM in for a BBC individual runner FUEL INJECTION INTAKE CONFIG
ID also ask if you can purchase any manufacturers MPFI owners manual and tuning guide ,
BEFORE you purchase and MPFI system ,
too both familiarize yourself with , and hopefully discover and restrictions or glitches,
or limits on matching equipment limitations,
that may prevent your intended operational goals being reached.
the last thing you want too find out is that your new system is not upgrade-able or no longer supported or only works with components that are manufacturer discontinued.


heses a typical chart showing SBC intake gasket sizes
notice 1.3 x 2.31 is the largest size thats roughly 3 sq inches
Felpro-Gasket-Port-Sizes.jpg

NOTICE THE BBC FUEL INJECTION LIST A 3" BORE thats 7 SQ INCHES
trust me the larger bore flows significantly more air
396C8M_1-600x600.jpg

BBC_DC_Silver_Canted_.jpg

https://www.kinsler.com/index.php/gm

http://hilborninjection.com/product/big-block-chevy-fuel-injector-3-bore/
 
Last edited:
What kind of compression ratio are we talking about? What header stepped race headers? Using the variables you listed Grumpy, it came back up, about 804hp and 710tq. Thats with 13.50 compression and with stepped race headers.
 
Are you playing desk top dyno if so which version I know when I calculate mine out not talking large step tube but using just the large header. I used 3000cfm or 3200cfm for the ITB EFI from what I have investigated it is around 340cfm for a 50mm throttle body. If I reuse my current grind on my cam it puts me at 544hp and I believe 523tq. Desk top shows numbers as Engine analyzer does if you put in a light weight rotating with good windage. I really want dynomation but I do not build enough engines to justify the $500 price tag.
 
So I received my copy Monday of this book
untitled.png

https://www.amazon.com/Performance-...01&sr=8-1&keywords=performance+fuel+injection

So far a good read it is written by a couple guys that have there hands deep in Megasquirt's design. I am only about 15 pages in but seems like a good read for the guy trying to get started not overly technical, but very informative. I would suggest this a good first book on the subject my opinion may change as I continue reading but will let you guys know.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Back
Top