Header Design Using Dynomation 6 & PipeMax 4.7

[Indycars]

When I tried to measure the runner length in the Edelbrock RPM Air Gap PN7501, I ran into a
problem. I called on the wife, she is really good a creative problem solving. In few minutes she
came up with the curved sewing needle, end of QTip and some wax to hold it. Dipped into some
paint and Wham Bam Thank You Mam I had a solution to marking the top side of the runner.



An interesting point ..... that intake runner came out exactly the same as the intake runner in the Brodix
heads. I thought I must have gotten confused when recording the results, but no I had the pics of
both measurements. It was not just the average that was exactly the same, but both measurements
for top/bottom sides.

I wonder if someone at either company is paying attention to the other ??????

 

[Indycars]

Got the GHP mockup kit, arrived last Thursday November 7th. It includes what you see
below. It has extra pieces at my request, so I would have the option to design a Tri-Y design
"4 into 2 into 1" (4-2-1) ... OR ... the traditional "4 into 1" (4-1). Therefore you will notice
that it has six 2-1 collectors and two 4-1 collectors.



I needed to document the frame angle as it sits on the safety stands so I can make my
last collector parallel at 3.1°.




John (ORF) came over to see what's going on, he is always supporting me with my projects .... thanks John!

John actually did what you see in the first pic. You will notice I'm trying to keep the last
collector inside the rear hair pins, so the wife does not get burnt again. It certainly is adding
another level of complexity as I try to get the primary tubes around the steering.



Take a look at those 2-1 collectors, they are what's called a Merger Collector. They don't
abruptly end in a bigger tube like the traditional 4-1 collector, they merge at an angle of
around of 15°.









Now try to configure those primary tubes while also meeting the dimension below. First graphic
is the inputs and the 2nd graphic is the dimensions that Pipemax 4.5 is giving me. Oh, btw you
will notice that I paired cylinder 1-3 and 5-7, that's not the optimal union for a SBC firing order
of 1-8-4-3-6-5-7-2. John and I both agreed it would be nearly impossible to pair cylinders 1-7
and 3-5, oh what a headache these requirements are turning out to be !!! Larry Meaux of Pipemax
has confirmed it's OK to pair cylinder 1 - 3 and 5- 7.



I've highlighted the important dimensions that I'm trying to meet. I'm not entirely sure I
understand them all, so I've also posted a question on the Pipemax forum to clarify.


.

 

[Grumpy]

I wish I was local to you, Im sure I could help you design a rather effective set of headers,
that would fit ,function, provide easy spark plug access, and look nice

 

[Indycars]

Yes, that would be very helpful if you were local !!! Have thought about moving and getting
away from those hurricanes !!!

How have you done headers before ? Did you mock it up first or just cut and weld, what was
your process ???

 

[Grumpy]

yes I've fabricated several sets in the past
that t-bucket should be very easy something like this maybe

https://www.jegs.com/i/Speedmaster/...MI2piTlvLl5QIV5I5bCh1AkA1AEAQYAyABEgKgWvD_BwE

but with this added

 

[Indycars]

Those are formed collectors, I was hoping to use the latest ideas in header design that use the
Merge Collectors like below. Then they need what's called a "Spear" that brings the four tubes
together (See the 2nd graphic below) . Adding to that a venturi after the merge and maybe a
megaphone into an extension.




This is the traditional concept .....

 

[JohnHancock]

WAIT! Are you going away from the way we are doing now? The merge collectors may be easier but not as cool.

 

[Indycars]

WAIT! Are you going away from the way we are doing now? The merge collectors may be easier but not as cool.

I think you might be confused with the terminology, what I have are merge collectors. I'm not
changing anything.

 

[Indycars]

The above version with measurements in RED, ideal measurements in RED would be
between 19" and 20.5" for all 4 sections.



Lots more failed attempts by both John and I. I went back and looked at my
the version above and tried to tweak it. I like this one better since the whole
package looks tighter.



.

 

[Indycars]

I decided it was time for me go back and scrutinize every input parameter since it was too
easy in the beginning to be excited and to hurry thru, wanting to get some header
dimensions. So I went back and reviewed all my numbers for Pipemax and found an
error for the "Cylinder Head Exh Port Flow". I had 157 cfm and it should have been
174 cfm.

Then I remembered how the Pipemax forum had a thread that Larry Meaux had posted
called "How to use PipeMax v4.00 Correctly" which involves aligning Pipemax with your
dyno numbers. I don't have a actual dyno test, but I do have Dynomation simulation dyno
run. Anyway this opened another can of worms and level of complexity of Pipemax. I
had several posts and PM with Larry Meaux to clarify somethings.

The exchange starts with the second post in the link below:
http://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboard/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1790&start=10

I also started this thread on Monday November 11th. You should be able to read in this
forum, but you won't be able to post unless you own one his software packages.
http://maxracesoftware.com/bulletinboard/viewtopic.php?f=11&t=1860

The new dimensions are shown below and out to the side are the old measurements so you
can see the changes. These inputs and dimensions could change again and probably will.


.

 

[Indycars]

Now that the holidays are over for awhile, I got back into the header design project. It's real
tough to get the dimensions correct for the 4-2-1 or Tri-Y headers, so I wanted to also try a 4-1
design and see how close I could get. The mockup kit they sent me had enough collectors to
do both designs, but it also cost more at $650. But it all gets applied to the final cost of the
finished headers.

Without posting all the numbers from Pipemax, it basically comes down to the length of the
primary tubes. The collector diameter and length are easy to meet those requirements.

Primary length should be between 36.4" to 38.9". This version (version 03) came out at .....

Cyl #1 - 39.0"
Cyl #3 - 39.5"
Cyl #5 - 40.0"
Cyl #7 - 37.0"

With more tweaking I'm sure it would be closer, this is my first attempt at a 4-1 design. Then
HP Headers will have more flexibility in getting the dimensions correct when they build them.
Again, I'm not after the exact same dimension for all primary tubes, with a little variation, I
can make the torque curve wider and flatter since all the cylinders are NOT peaking at the
same RPM.

Version 03 Below (Next 3 photos)




So you don't have to go back to look at version 02, they are included below.

Version 02 Below (Next 2 Photos)



Any opinions on which header design (Version 02 or Version 03) will perform better ???

.

 

[Grumpy]

personally I think, of the listed options, version 3
but I would have gone more to this route

 

[T-Test]

I'm so confused as to EXACTLY what you are trying to accomplish. I have always understood that the primary pipes were to be equal length and the same diameter to get the most HP from any engine other than one with a turbo charger or super charger which then you would need to get the Largest primary pipes that would fit to expel all the exhaust. The collectors would then determine the HP/TORQUE to RPM ratio to get what you are running the car as--Drag--Oval--NASCAR--etc.
If this book didn't answer your questions then how are you going to achieve your goal without having a fortune and a lot of time invested.
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0857331256/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_title?ie=UTF8&psc=1

This picture and the info on it tell me it takes an engineer to test ALL areas noted and that any one of them can change/alter the performance of an engine as to what you are using the car for--Drag--Oval--NASCAR--etc.
Unequal length primaries and long or short collectors 1 or 2 have been tested and proven to be so much different that the best is not always the best in any given engine. That is what I think is why most accepted headers on the market are the best overall choice especially when it comes to cost/performance ratio. JMTCW

Don't let me discourage you as I'm glad you are learning something and wanting to improve your ride as Math and Science have always frustrated me after my HS math teacher tried to make me believe (with NEW math) that 1+1=3. I proved her wrong and why it would NEVER work in the REAL world where I planned to live.

 

[Indycars]

personally I think, of the listed options, version 3
but I would have gone more to this route

I don't want the wife to get burned again trying to get out of the car. Therefore I want to keep the
collector inside the hairpin. The collector in your photo is too short for best performance, so that
won't work for me.

I might try coming forward with the primaries and see if I can get the collector length right at about
22 inches so it ends before it gets along side the door on her side where she get in.

 

[Indycars]

I'm so confused as to EXACTLY what you are trying to accomplish. I have always understood that the primary pipes were to be equal length and the same diameter to get the most HP from any engine

I'm not after peak TQ or peak HP, therefore having the primary tubes slightly different length
will help broaden the curves. Also as I said above, I don't want the wife to worry about getting
burned every time she gets in or out of the car.

Besides the above goals, I also want something different than everyone else has for headers.
There are only 3-4 designs that you can purchase for a TBucket, mine won't look anything
like one of those.

 

[T-Test]

Well then!!! I just pick my wife up and set her in the bucket or use the step stool. I quit GOOCHING her a few years ago when she hit me!!!

Try a rams horn--up and out from the the head about 4" and curled out about 12" going down turning back to the frame or underneath the car then towards the rear . Or with a deuce highboy look or 2X2X1
similar to this.

This is what I run as everyone has the sweptback or classics.

These in a rams horn design would look good in my opinion. I could have them made if I tried hard enough and have them coated.

 

[Indycars]

So here is version 4. It's a major departure from the others in that it does NOT go inside
the hairpin mount. This time it goes outside like the originals headers, but to meet the goal
of getting them out of the wife's entry into the car, they had to come way forward. Also I
need to get a 22 inch collector extension on the headers and not have them end beyond the
door. The collector length is not a problem when it passes inside the hairpin mount.






.

 

[Grumpy]

thats about the best looking yet

 

[T-Test]

thats about the best looking yet

I agree but if you try the rams horn way and it was to curl enough to go inside the radius rod mount would that not fit your needs?

 

[Grumpy]

btw

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/carburetor-intake-manifold-test.58/

Holley 300-110
inner runner: 2.94 CSA, 4.625 long
outer runner: 3.36 CSA, 5.50 long

Edelbrock 2925
inner runner: 2.89 CSA, 5.58 long
outer runner: 2.85 CSA, 6.56 long

Edelbrock 2970
inner runner: 3.26 CSA, 5.525 long
outer runner: 3.29 CSA, 6.54 long

Edelbrock 2892
inner runner: 3.58 CSA, 5.42 long
outer runner: 3.66 CSA, 6.30 long

Hurricane (Bowtie)
inner runner: 3.34 CSA, 5.54 long
outer runner: 3.70 CSA, 6.42 long

Holley 300-25
inner runner: 3.34 CSA, 4.38 long
outer runner: 3.45 CSA, 5.025 long