How To Pick Timing Gear Set

Discussion in 'Cams, Heads and Valve Trains' started by Indycars, Feb 8, 2011.

  1. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member

    Grumpy,

    I don't find anything about picking a timing gear setup that will support the stress levels of a specific engine. Now I'm not asking about the different features concerning the timing.... multiple keyways or the very expensive fully adjustable set costing $150.

    What I'm needing is when do you need a billet steel crank gear or when do you need BOTH gears to be billet steel ???
    When do I need the larger .25" rollers ??? Or Double Roller sets ???

    Also when looking at the DOUBLE ROLLER sets, many times they say "Will not fit behind stock timing cover." Are we talking about the plastic covers or will these not fit behind a short SBC water pump ???

    Some general guide lines would be very helpful !
     
  2. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    you can make this complicated but its really not, a good dual roller chain by CLOYES fits under the stock cover and is the correct choice in about 90% or more of the carburetor equipped engines that don,t run really exotic components and probably a reasonable choice in the remaining 10%, if you have any questions you may want to call or email cloyes and get suggestions like Ive done several times, but I think youll find the standard cloyes roller timing sets do a decent job.
    its also a real good idea to drill the pass side oil plug under the timing cover with a .030-.035 drill so oil constantly sprays on the timing chain during use,and while IM discussing cam timing sets Id say that about 90% of the time a good CLOYES timing chain set should be used on street cars vs a gear drive if that's one option your thinking about.
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    READ THE LINKED INFO CAREFULLY

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ped-nose-cam-in-early-block.14182/#post-71937

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/semi-fool-proof-cam-sellection.82/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-street-roller-cam-selection.5709/#post-46850

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...a-better-cam-to-a-zz3-350-sbc.182/#post-26013

    a basic timing chain set like this from cloyes works great in most SBC applications
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1100/
    FIRST GEN, SBC CLOYES ROLLER TIMING SET
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-1100/overview/

    MARK IV BBC CLOYES ROLLER TIMING SET 1965-90

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-c-3024x/overview/

    MARK VI BBC CLOYES ROLLER TIMING SET 1991-95

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/...-specific/engine-family/chevy-big-block-gen-v

    [​IMG]
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    [​IMG]
    above is a picture of how a typical timing chain looks with the DOT-TO-DOT install having the crank gear at 12 o'clock ,(B) and cam gear (A)indexed at 6 o'clock, NOTICE THE WOOD RIFF KEY AT 2 O'CLOCK,IF ITS ANYPLACE ELSE YOU HAVE IT INDEXED INCORRECTLY(C) naturally youll need to rotate the engine one full revolution to get the upper gear index to 12 o'clock and the lower gear back to 12 o'clock before dropping in the distributor
    [​IMG]
    http://www.butlerperformance.com/produc ... Chain.html (pontiac)
    [​IMG]
    keep in mind the KEYWAY matched to the matching index mark will always be located at approximately 2 O'clock on the crank gear
    ON CLOYES SETS the SHORTER CHAINS used ON LINE HONED BLOCKS ,GENERALLY HAVE A PART NUMBER ENDING IN EITHER -5 or _10 INDICATING A .005 or .0010 TIGHTER timing set

    read THESE links
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains-stretch.5734/#post-17492

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hanics-of-adv-ret-a-camshaft.4532/#post-67562

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...et-it-to-last-cam-install-info.90/#post-57942

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...nter-1-for-timing-ignition-cam.966/#post-1682

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...e-train-clearances-and-problems.528/#post-668

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...king-piston-to-valve-clearances.399/#post-488

    http://www.competitionproducts.com/Camshaft-Degreeing-and-Cam-Measuring-Tools/products/1387/
    THERE ARE TIMING CHAIN TENSION-ER KITS AVAILABLE
    http://www.speedwaymotors.com/S-B-Chevy ... ,3229.html
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    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    drilling the pass side oil passage plug with a 1/32" bit so oil constantly sprays on the timing gears helps extend chain and gear life.
    Ive occasionally been asked what you can do too reduce the slack in the timing chain if your blocks been line honed,
    to straiten the main bearings and that resulted in a slightly closer crank to cam center-line distance,
    that results in a slightly increased slack in the stock timing chain sets.
    a negligible amount of metal is generally removed from the main bearing saddles in the block, they usually try very hard to minimize that, metal removal so standard parts still fit,during a line hone , but they do sell slightly tighter timing chain sets to correct excess slack if that's required.
    [​IMG]



    the double roller cloyes timing chains tend to last longer before they wear and have excess slack
    and they can be used with the stock O.E.M timing chain cover
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    TRUE DOUBLE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN SETS FROM QUALITY MANUFACTURERS TEND TO BE MORE DURABLE
    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3100-5
    Timing Chain and Gear Set, Original True Roller, Double Roller, -0.005 in., Iron/Steel Sprockets, Chevy, Small Block, Set
    for line honed blocks where the crank is .005 closer to the cam


    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3100-10
    for line honed blocks where the crank is .010 closer to the cam
    Timing Chain and Gear Set, Original True Roller, Double Roller, -0.010 in., Iron/Steel Sprockets, Chevy, Small Block, Set

    related info
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ped-nose-cam-in-early-block.14182/#post-71937

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-drive-details.3809/#post-16765

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hanics-of-adv-ret-a-camshaft.4532/#post-12048

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-get-it-to-last-cam-install-info.90/#post-114

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-spacer-buttons.1793/#post-4553

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/chain-vs-gear-drive-cam.781/

    ALL TIMING CHAINS STRETCH OVER TIME, the BETTER/MORE EXPENSIVE ONES TEND TOO LAST FAR LONGER, and PROPER LUBRICATION HELPS THEM LAST LONGER
    yes you can spend a good deal more and buy a billet roller timing chain, but the fact remains that the cloyes true roller timing chain sets that cost less do an adequate job with very few failures so they are a great value
    this is what most sbc engines use
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1

    http://www.jegs.com/i/Cloyes/220/9-3645X9/10002/-1

    IVE used dozens of these on SBC applications without one failing

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3100
    [​IMG]
    don,t forget these if its an early non roller application
    CLOYES # 3145 Fits 1987-1991 TPI Corvettes with Factory Roller Cams.
    $104.79 Summit Racing.
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/clo-9-3651x3
    1992-1994 $239.97
    [​IMG]
    LT1 stock cam sprocket (93-94) = 10128349
    LT1 stock cam sprocket (95-97) = 10206039
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-202
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/man-42114/overview/

    http://www.carid.com/loctite/272-high-t ... fgodAgUADA

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ng-cam-and-shifting-the-lca.10553/#post-44949
    READ THRU THESE CAREFULLY

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=90

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=399

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10709

    LT1
    [​IMG]
    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=697
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    http://www.cloyes.com/Aftermarket/TechH ... fault.aspx
    YOU CAN AVOID POTENTIAL CONFUSION & PROBLEMS IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TOO, DEGREE THE CAMSHAFT IN, instead of relying on "dot-to-dot".
    theres a BIG difference in quality between the entry level and good quality parts made/ sold by cloyes

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1
    ($92)

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-C-3023X/ ($21)

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-3100A/ ($132)
    http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... 00a%20.pdf

    [​IMG]
    look closely theres three crank key slots and each is marked, with the crank key (R or rectangle) =(retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) =(advanced 4 degrees) located at approximately the 2 0,clock position the related mark(R or rectangle)= (retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) advanced 4 degrees) is at the 12 o,clock location that you use to line up with the cam gear while thats indexed at approximately the 6 o,clock location
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    CHEAP LINK CHAINS TEND TO STRETCH FASTER
    [​IMG]

    dual roller chains tend to last significantly longer

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains-stretch.5734/#post-17492
    [​IMG]

    The Cloyes® Patented 3-Keyway crank sprocket allows adjustment of the crankshaft timing by ±4°.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    look closely theres three crank key slots and each is marked, with the crank key (R or rectangle) =(retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) =(advanced 4 degrees) located at approximately the 2 0,clock position the related mark(R or rectangle)= (retarded 4 degrees) (0) strait up) and (A or triangle) advanced 4 degrees) is at the 12 o,clock location that you use to line up with the cam gear while thats indexed at approximately the 6 o,clock location, its fairly common to screw this up if your not paying attention and that can result in bent valves

    Remember: The camshaft angle is half of the crankshaft angle, therefore the camshaft will correspondingly advance or retard by ±2°.

    By changing the cam timing, enhancements to the camshaft characteristics can be achieved. For example, retarding the cam timing will increase high RPM horsepower, and advancing the cam timing will increase low-end torque.


    I generally just use one of these two cam drives on a SBC, (usually the chain drives on most engines)
    [​IMG]
    gear cam drives tend too, at least in theory to be more accurate, Ive used one in almost all of my corvette engines for many years, but it can drive knock sensors crazy on efi systems and its generally not going to provide much of an advantage at the rpm levels most street engines operate at.
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1100/

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-G6700-Q/

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    related threads

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=205&p=887&hilit=gears+chain+cams#p887


    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4532&p=12045&hilit=gears+timing+cam#p12045

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=3809&p=10227&hilit=gears+timing+cam#p10227

    viewtopic.php?f=52&t=781&p=1132&hilit=gears+timing+cam#p1132

    yes there is a good reason to avoid those cheap import timing chain sets that auto parts stores frequently sell for under $30.........heres one with less than an hours of run time
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    CROSSFIRE
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    [​IMG]
    LT1/LT4
    [​IMG]

    LT5
    [​IMG]
    L98
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2018
  3. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member

    Ok, use the KISS method then....thanks !
     
  4. bob

    bob Guest

    just want to say that grump's advice to stick with the CLOYES roller link timing chain sets is spot on!
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9 ... refilter=1
    a basic timing chain set like this from cloyes works great in most SBC applications
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1100/

    the Cloyes 9-3649X3-5. Single roller with billet crank gear for the newer single roller BIG BLOCK CHEVY MARK V- and ESPECIALLY MARK VI with plastic timing cover engines that won,t allow use of the older thicker dual roller chain timing sets.

    we pulled down my friends small block Chevy after it only had 54,000 miles on a auto parts store bargain basement $21 timing chain ,IT HAD INDIA STAMPED ON THE TOP GEAR
    The timing drive system in your engine is just that, a system, with inter-related components. For "peace of mind", to reduce the chances of having to re-do the job,and to reduce the chance of future problems,with the timing set, and for continued dependability & performance, it is strongly recommended that all components (gears and chain as a matched set) are replaced together, as a unit.
    [​IMG]
    TRUE DOUBLE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN SETS FROM QUALITY MANUFACTURERS TEND TO BE MORE DURABLE


    the double roller cloyes timing chains tend to last longer before they wear and have excess slack
    and they can be used with the stock O.E.M timing chain cover
    [​IMG]



    [​IMG]

    TRUE DOUBLE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN SETS FROM QUALITY MANUFACTURERS TEND TO BE MORE DURABLE

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]


    and his current gear set that he had installed previously because he wanted to install a new cam,when he previously rebuilt the engine was a $21 auto parts store imported no-name part, link belt design
    [​IMG]
    with its single tooth design gears

    [​IMG]
    not roller link design, with its dual teeth and roller link chain

    YOU CAN AVOID POTENTIAL CONFUSION & PROBLEMS IF YOU TAKE THE TIME TOO, DEGREE THE CAMSHAFT IN, instead of relying on "dot-to-dot".
    TRUE DOUBLE ROLLER TIMING CHAIN SETS FROM QUALITY MANUFACTURERS TEND TO BE MORE DURABLE

    the double roller cloyes timing chains tend to last longer before they wear and have excess slack
    and they use the stock O.E.M timing chain cover

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...le-valve-timing-kit-chev-sb.14272/#post-72748

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains.2209/#post-32465

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-to-pick-timing-gear-set.4548/#post-12699

    a basic timing chain set like this from cloyes works great in most SBC applications and fits under the stock stamped steel timing cover
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/CLO-9-1100/




    [​IMG]

    and the timing light indicated there was some play in the timing as it jumped as rpms changed and there was a good deal of slack in the chain links even though he changes oil frequently and there was very little indication of varnish or sludge build-up on the parts indicating that the oil had been changed regularly.
    on opening the timing cover there was contact marks at one point on the inside of the timing cover where the slack timing chain was just barely touching the inner timing covers outer surface at times so I have little doubt that he prevented a major failure by replacing the timing chain,gears and cam/lifters etc

    related threads
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/chain-vs-gear-drive-cam.781/#post-72280

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains-stretch.5734/#post-17492

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-to-pick-timing-gear-set.4548/#post-43700

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-degreeing.9010/#post-35474

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains.2209/#post-32459

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...rect-variable-valve-timing-kit-chev-sb.14272/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...get-it-to-last-cam-install-info.90/#post-2339

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/cam-spacer-buttons.1793/#post-6121

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/how-to-pick-timing-gear-set.4548/#post-12699

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/timing-chains-stretch.5734/#post-17492

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...s-a-flat-tappet-design.3802/page-2#post-68942
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2018
  5. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member

    Attached Files:

  6. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    now if youve got cash to throw away......a belt drive tends to run quieter, and with less friction, usually worth 5-8 extra hp
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    http://www.jegs.com/i/Jesel/549/KBD-310 ... tId=746075


    btw the multi part timing chain covers that allow a faster cam change are available at a not much increased price for some 1966-1990 BBC applications,
    obviously youll want to ask questions and get the correct matched components for your application.
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-312/overview/
    and sbc
    $265
    https://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-310
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Apr 19, 2018
  7. philly

    philly solid fixture here in the forum

    i just wanted to revive this to revisit the timing belt drive sets... theres an inexpensive wet drive option available from comp (about half the price of dry systems)... ive spent 400 dollars on things that havent netted me 5 or 10 hp and increased the longevity of my valvetrain... a belt drive does the best job of damping crank harmonics that can shake their way up the chain and into the cam and thus into your valvetrain...

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-5100/overview/
     

    Attached Files:

  8. 87vette81big

    87vette81big Guest

    If I was to choose a Belt Drive Setup Phil it would be a Dry Setup.
    Just because on the car Camshaft Advance & Retard Phasing changes are so easy to do.
    All out Drag Racing.
    Degreeing in with a cam wheel takes less than 15-30 minutes on SBF Or BBC.
    Been called on the Job to do for others. A Pleasant experience.
    No dropping the oil pan like Chevy.
     
  9. philly

    philly solid fixture here in the forum

    yea youre right i didnt consider how easy to adjust the timing it is on a dry setup... i wonder if anyone makes belt drives for mopars? my wifes dying to get into a 68-69 dart or challenger and ie been look at a bunch of parts online
     
  10. 87vette81big

    87vette81big Guest

    I am sure they do Phil.
    Indy Head Service comes to mind.
    Grumpy can help research for You.
    Belt drives are expensive. Seen them used on the street.
    Don't think they are necessary most times myself.
    All of us today are on tight budgets today.
    Belt drives sure do look intimidating .
    Most of time I see them, there is over $10k in top end.
    Race Heads. Titanium valves. Billet roller cam riding on needle bearings.
    Titanium retainers. Titanium valve locks. Sheetmetal fabbded intake.
    Race carb or Race fuel injection. Jesel or T&D shaft rockers.
    All necessary to make that extra 200-400 HP before Boost comes on hard.
    Titanium Retainers do the most to promote Usable RPM Band I found for $$ invested
    Last about 10,000 miles street driving or more.
     
  11. philly

    philly solid fixture here in the forum

    yea i just think the setup looks cool as hell... in my mind's eye when she says she wants a dart i think of something like this:



    with a stroked LA small block 400+cid, aluminum heads, a single plane, belt drive, stick shift, lots of gear and 7500+ rpm

    when she talks about challengers i just say im broke
     

    Attached Files:

  12. philly

    philly solid fixture here in the forum

    +1 on the titanium retainers... also if youre running forced induction i would get the titanium valves, but for naturally aspirated setups hollow stem or sodium filled valves are almost as light but they are about half the money.
     
  13. 87vette81big

    87vette81big Guest

    A friend had a 1968 Dart GT 340. 727 Torqueflite. 3.23 Posi.
    Fun car. Installed A Race Hyd. Purpleshaft I recall. Adjustable pushrods.
    Unknown high stall 3K rpm torque converter.
    It would turn 8k rpms.
    Single Plane Torker & Carter AFB 750. Old Blackjack Long tube headers.
    Needed more gear but once it got moving it screamed.
    Sorta like Ricks T-bucket issue Racing Real Race Cars now.
     
  14. philly

    philly solid fixture here in the forum


    i would love for her to have an awesome rock n roll machine like that... i think if i put her in the 12's shes gonna have alot of fun racing new camaros and mustangs and challengers out on the street and shell get some street cred under her belt
     
  15. Speedlink1973

    Speedlink1973 Active Member

    So GM and the old step nose cams....
    I found after the fact that comp cams
    Jesel and CV don't make a belt drive for a step nose cam which I had already bought.

    So I bought a pro comp cheap
    $364 from jegs on sale.
    Took it apart and made my own version of it for a step nose cam
    Plus I made mine out of A-2 tool steel
    I'm pretty sure by the Rockwell tester
    The Chinese one is made of pop cans and sheet metal, and runout was bad in my opinion. On the diameter it was .006 I brought mine in to .001
    Face to cam was .008 I brought mine in to .002
    I do like the fact it has a thrust bearing
    On both sides of it instead of shims
    And like a comp cams knock off
    It's a dial adjust for cam end play.

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     

    Attached Files:

    Last edited by a moderator: Jun 11, 2018
  16. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    I love seeing guys that are not frustrated and mentally blocked ,
    when the obvious answer to a problem,
    when they find theres no easy off the shelf answer to the issue is simply,
    accurately measure think it through carefully and make/fabricate/machine your own,
    custom and better quality components.. CONGRATS!:D
    I'm a hell of a lot more impressed with a guy that built his own parts used ,
    too build an 11 second car with his own hands,

    than some guy with a 9 second car that had someone else do the work with off the shelf parts,
    and knowing he is able too do so,

    because he has a large checking account balance to draw from.
     
    Speedlink1973 likes this.
  17. Speedlink1973

    Speedlink1973 Active Member

    25 year ago as a apprentice
    Tool &Diemaker my journeyman
    Used to say "See that piece of steel, see that print" I would say yep...
    He would then reply that part is inside that hunk of steel, get it out. He happened to be my uncle, he passed away about a year ago.

    Your absolutely right, I've even seen good aftermarket companies not take the time in high production to get the run out or flatness or true position to a higher level like they could.

    Thanks Grumpy....
     
  18. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey Staff Member

    my dad was a tool and die maker for decades!
    and your right, theres a great deal of low quality crap marketed that could be significantly improved,
    if the companies making the crap were to put just a tiny bit more quality control and design time,
    into the process, rather than try to maximize profits at the obvious expense of selecting and insisting on the use of, quality materials and R&D.

    I bought a mill and a decent welder, now I need a lathe
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/milling-machine-related.4231/#post-33023

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/milling-machine-related.4231/#post-39800

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...luid-chip-filter-for-my-mill.6093/#post-18813
     
    Last edited: Jun 11, 2018
    Speedlink1973 likes this.
  19. Maniacmechanic1

    Maniacmechanic1 solid fixture here in the forum

    Kinda odd to me everyone wants a step nosed Cam in a Chevy V8.
    What Pontiac V8 used.

    I never had a problem with the Chevy Race Roller Thrust Bearing when we were dirt track racing.
    Real Brutal Racing Flatout.
     

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