Hydraulic roller lifter failure

Z

Zfan

Member
I am contemplating swapping my hydraulic roller set up for a solid roller set up as I have had 2 recent lifter failures that were nearly catastrophic to my motor.

My engine is a 385 sbc stroker with all forged internals, cam is a Crane small base billet part number 119651, if my memory serves me right, Comp. cams magnum hyd. roller lifters, Scorpion 1.60 roller rockers. Heads are AFR 210's out of box.

My first failure was with 5 yr old roller lifters and I dropped a valve due to it, luckily the valve bent and did not fully drop or it would have been game over. I replaced the roller lifters with a new set and for 4-5 months everything was fine but then after a race when I started her up she sounded like she had a slite miss and a couple of lifters were chattering.

I adjusted the valves all over again and she ran fine but then I went to Ennis for Test n tune and on my first pass she started to rock and shake real hard just past the 1/8th mile marker, I lifted and coasted in, the car sounded again like a cylinder was dead and I had the lifter noise on the drivers side real bad.

After letting her sit for a while I attempted to start her back up and she ran better but not great so I took her home. The next day I went to start her and isolate the damn lifter that is hurt and she ran like a champ, I have shut her off and on 4 maybe 5 times to get her to do it again and she runs fine. I do not trust the lifters and I really am at my wits end with them as I only spin her to 6300-6500 rpm's. The LS1 guys are winding them up at the track all day long to 6800 with no problems.

I am at a loss as to why this is happening as these are not old, they are new and they are not cheap Chinese crap, they are Comps best hyd. roller lifter. Anyone got any idea's? I hate to spend a lot more money on converting to a solid set up but this is getting old fast.

If I do change my lifters and springs out to go solid can I run that cam with a solid lifer and better springs?

Thanks,
Mike
 
IVE run that exact cam in several sbc engines

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show ... vl=2&prt=5

heres the springs crane suggested

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browsePa ... r=99838-16
revkit1.jpg

revekit.jpg

on many hydraulic roller lifter applications a REV KIT on hydraulic roller lifters adds several hundred RPM to the power band before valve control issues develop
I know that in my experience its about limited to about 6500rpm IN SPITE of crane rating it at 7000rpm,
and even then it requires fairly heavy springs, careful checking of clearances and a rocker stud girdle,because the hydraulic roller lifters are heavier than the solid lifter roller lifters AND if you use the 1.6:1 ratio rockers, keep in mind the ramp rates are far different on an LS1 because the cams lobes are larger on the LS1 than the 1.125-.860 base circle on that first gen sbc cam designs ,small base crane hydraulic roller cam,and rate of acceleration of the lifter is more gradual on an ls1 cam at a given rpm range.
once you reach lifter inertia rates that overcome the springs and the lifters loft even marginally the lifters beat them self's to death in quick succession.
swapping to the solid roller lifters will generally help but the cams not designed for them, and Id sure ask the tech guys at crane for advice.

you might find this info useful, but its been my experience your limited to about 6500rpm max even with a good valve train with that cam

have you seen this
zddp.jpg


viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181&p=2342&hilit=beehive#p2342

http://www.racingsprings.com/PDF/Design ... v%2001.pdf

http://www.racingsprings.com/PDF/RS2009CAT.PDF


http://www.airflowresearch.com/hydra_rev.php
you might find that a slightly stiffer beehive spring with a smaller titainum retainer may help

a0543d16.jpg

keep in mind roller cam wear tends to occur over time, and usually theres obvious signs of wear that indicate things are about to degrade so anytime you get the chance inspect the components for those wear indications as it might allow you to replace defective parts before things get expensive
 
Thanks Grumpy,

I am running Comp double springs, the part number escapes me at the moment but it's a tad bit stiffer than what Crane recommends, I believe it was 140-145 on the seat and 420 open. They do not have many miles on them just like the lifters.

I am only running the engine to 6200-6300 most times but maybe a little higher when I stretch her legs out in the 1/4. The only reason I ran her saturday was for a 9 second time slip and I would have surely had it had she ran right. I ran a 10.11 at 124.22 letting out at or just before the 1000 ft. mark. I have run 10.30's at 134-138 before on a smaller combo.

Do you have a recommendation for a solid roller cam for my combo? It's street driven with 11 to 1 compression, 3.70 gears, built 700r4 with a 9" 3500 stall converter. I also run a 150-175 shot on a NOS super big shot plate system.

Maybe next time.
 
your basically beating a long dead horse with hydraulic lifters if you want to hit 6500-7000rpm,

ID GO WITH THIS SOLID ROLLER CAM (#00426-S)
http://www.crower.com/misc/cam_spec/cam ... 6&x=52&y=7

http://www.crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml

talk to the tech guys about the correct solid lifter design

the wide lsa gives you a bit more vacuum and slightly smoother idle
the slight increase in durration no big deal as the solid lifters have a differant ramp design,installed on an intake centerline of: 108º
your current springs are fine if the clearance is ok for the .622 lift with 1.6:1 ratio rockers

(WHEN YOU ORDER DON,T FORGET TO GET THE (S) VERSION FOR SMALL BASE CIRCLE)

BTW, YES I SEE THE #00425, thats also a valid choice but I think the 00426 is a better choice in this context, either should work but you want 9s Id go with the 00426

http://crower.com/misc/cam_spec/cam_fin ... &x=42&y=10

http://crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml


heres a vaugely similar crane but I like the crower specs better here

http://www.cranecams.com/?show=browsePa ... e=camshaft
 
Grumpy,

I am torn on weather to go with a solid roller or just advance the cam 4 degree's and shift a little earlier. I checked the Comp Valve springs part #853-16 and at the install hiegth of 1.95 I got 140 on the seat and 380 open.

I pulled all the push rods and roller rockers and checked them for defect, re installed everything and adjusted valves to 1/4 turn past zero lash. Ran the car for 10 minutes and let it sit for another 10 minutes before re adjusting valves again.

Car runs good and bad lifter (if bad) will not rear it's ugly face. I have heard a lot of negatives in regards to running a solid roller on the street as the lifter do not last long, something about all the idling around kills them.

Something that was mentioned to me and I had never given it any thought so I thought I'd run it by you. I am running an old school 010-020 GM truck block with a small base circle cam for strokers with Comp cams tetro fit link bar lifters. A friend had mentioned possible issues with the small base cam and the lifters in a first gen block, have you heard anything in regards to this?

I am going to give Crane a call today and see if there is anything to this.

Thanks,
Mike
 
the smaller the base circle and the higher the spring pressures the lifters operate under,the more likely you are to have problems with ANY roller or flat tappet lifters of any design over the long haul, in durability.
MOST solid roller lifters are designed for upper rpm use, and that generally requires higher spring pressures, those higher spring pressures and higher inertial loads result in higher stress levels, (ESPECIALLY if the lifters LOFT) or don,t maintain constant roller to lobe contact as they accelerate and drop over the lifter nose,its not so much the lifter design as it is those spring pressures, or lack of valve control issues, ID bet that most solid roller lifter designs would last just as long as hydraulic roller lifters IF THEY WERE USED in and limited too the SAME RPM AND SPRING PRESSURE LIMITS, as the hydraulic roller lifters
KEEP IN MIND MOST SOLID ROLLER LIFTERS are lighter in weight than most hydraulic roller lifters, that helps their valve control issues also
hydra2.jpg

revekit.jpg

on many hydraulic roller lifter applications a REV KIT on hydraulic roller lifters adds several hundred RPM to the power band before valve control issues develop

http://www.iskycams.com/durathon.php

http://www.crower.com/misc/m_cat.shtml

http://www.cranecams.com/index.php?show ... =3&prt=118

high spring loads, or entering valve floar rpm levels don,t play well with roller cams over long term use
camlobe2.jpg


082.jpg



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LUA8b7RlQEQ

its been my experience that many cam failures are related to clearance issues or lack of correct lubrication far more than the use of the less than ideal spring load rates.
you might be amazed at the number of guys I see who install valve springs, even shim them to the correct height but never check the retainer to guide clearance,valve seals or valve train geometry, or bother to verify the oil flow thru the valve train, on all 16 rockers
and adding a few of the correct magnets traps almost all the metallic crud from worn lifters and lobes BEFORE it gets into the oil pump
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=282

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181
 
Grumpy,

I have a friend who said he has heard of problems with the small base circle cams, specifically he just mentioned oiling problems with the lifters placement in the bore, have you heard of this and also mentioned a lifter bore going out of round with the old blocks and small base cams causing oil pressure losses. Also is it true that the smaller based cam has flex issues under stress at mid to high rpm's?

This is all new to me, have you heard anything in regards to these comments or suggestions he made? I never had a problem until I switched from my Comp cams xr288-hr10 236/242 dur.-520/530 lift-10ls hydr. roller to the Crane 119651-s.
 
Zfan said:
Grumpy,

I have a friend who said he has heard of problems with the small base circle cams, specifically he just mentioned oiling problems with the lifters placement in the bore, have you heard of this and also mentioned a lifter bore going out of round with the old blocks and small base cams causing oil pressure losses. Also is it true that the smaller based cam has flex issues under stress at mid to high rpm's?

This is all new to me, have you heard anything in regards to these comments or suggestions he made? I never had a problem until I switched from my Comp cams xr288-hr10 236/242 dur.-520/530 lift-10ls hydr. roller to the Crane 119651-s.
Click to expand...


ok lets take them one at a time
yes almost everything mentioned CAN be a problem,under the correct conditions, but Id also point out that they seldom ARE a problem if clearances and valve train geometry is correct, especially with cam lifts and durations as low as, or even close too, that .530-lift /236/242 duration hydraulic cam, the newer chevy roller blocks, and most aftermarket blocks have longer and thicker lifter bores to help prevent those potential problems, due to the larger area of support and bearing surface and larger oil passage ports.
BILLET cams are far less suspect than cast core cams, as an example MY crane 119661 is a billet core cam and after 30,k miles, plus it still looks like new, so does my lifter bores but then I don,t run it up over about 6400rpm either. and I run valve string pressure levels that are just stiff enough to maintain valve control at that 6400rpm.
ID also point out that lifter bores can be sleeved or bored to the larger ford and mopar lifter bore sizes

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=181

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=697

CROWER AND ISKY sell decent lifters,

ERSON SELLS MOREL LIFTERS
http://www.pbmperformance.com/store.php?catId=420

Ive used them without problems, ERSON sells them, in fact the last couple engines I built Ive used the ERSON lifters MADE BY MOREL,but keep in mind the cam lobe design and spring load rates have a great deal to do with the lifter life span along with the oil flow rates. the more aggressive the lobe design and the higher the spring loads the lower the lifter and cams expected life span will be, especially if you get up into valve control issue inducing rpm ranges
 
Grumpy,

I calle Comp Cams techline for the umpteenth time and finally got someone who really knows their stuff. I questioned him in regards to Comp making a special solid roller lifter for the small circle cam and why do they not make one for the hydraulic roller cams. I then asked him if he could compare the 2 and I explained that I had a 1rst gen chevy block and that the lifters dropped way down in the lifter bores with the small base cam.

He said he would go out back and look/compare the lifters and get back with me. He called me back a while later and said the lifter would almost certainly have oiling issues with that .860 circle cam and that is likely my problem. I like how the other Tech's said it would be no problem.

Lesson learned, do not trust what they say. I am going to remove the Crane cam and go in another direction as I have heard nothing but negative things about the small base cams as far as lifter failures due to more stress over all.
 
you might want to keep in mind that a DIFFERENT BRAND of roller lifter will probably work better comps lifters are NOT considered TOP OF THE LINE by some engine builders
CRANE
ISKY
CROWER
make differant designs, and ID suggest talking to them BEFORE giving up, IVE run all 4 brands at times and ERSON HYDRALIC ROLLER LIFTERS
BELIEVE ME WHEN I SAY THERES A BIG DIFFERANCE between BRANDS, OILING SYSTEMS, AND BORE CONTACT AREA

read
viewtopic.php?f=52&t=788&p=1142&hilit=isky#p1142
 
I switched to the Isky retro-fit hydraulic roller lifters after having a problem with Comp's. The Isky's are .300" taller so I would think that would help with the small base circle cam. I have some comparison pictures that clearly show the better quality of the Isky lifters. I'll have to check my computer at home tonight.

Brian
 
Here are the pics
liftercompare.JPG

lifterrollers.JPG

liftertop.JPG

It is pretty easy to see the difference. The Isky lifters even have a larger diameter roller.

Brian
 
What do you guys think of the new Lunati hydraulic roller lifters? A friend of mine really liked the set he purchased, said they looked like they were much better quality than Comps.

On another note I purchased a new Hydraulic roller cam from my engine builder. It's a special grind that he runs on a set up that is almost the same as mine and they love it. It's for his 11 to 1 compression, 6" rod , 383's with AFR 195 heads. The only difference is I have the AFR 210 Eliminators heads.

It's a billet 248/253 duration with 573/581 lift, with a 110 ls. I decided to get away from the Crane sb circle cam, I will put it on Ebay if it still looks good.
 
you might want to keep in mind the main reason a small base cam is USED IN A STROKER BUILD!.....ITS too allow the cam lobes to clear the connecting rods...as they rotate passt each other........changing brands or cam specs just a bit is very unlikey to allow the extra rod to lobe clearance you needed, in many stroker builds, a small base circle cam is used for that reason in a stroker build in the first place if you needed one ,to begin with.
(not all stroker combos of rods and cams do!, in some combos a standard base circle cam clears fine)
the clearance issue has more to do with the connecting rod profile and cam lift and durration and LSA than the base circle but measure carefully because some cylinders have a good deal more clearance than others due to the location of the cam lobes being indexed to the crank rotation.
 
Grumpy,

I actually ran a non small circle cam in it and when we freshened it up I swapped the small base cam in it. It has clearance, the small circle cam was swapped in because the old cam had a lot of wear on the lobes (cast cam) so I got a deal on this one from a friend.
 
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