I want to spin a sbc to 8000rpm

grumpyvette

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
"GRUMPY,I want to spin a sbc to 8000rpm, and make good hp in a really light weight car for drag racing, what will I need"

The first thing ID suggest is stepping, back and asking yourself why you want the sbc engine to spin 8000rpm, simply because controlling a valve train at those rpms is going to require a great deal of rather expensive parts, and its going to significantly reduce your potential durability. you don,t need to spin an engine any more that lets say 6500rpm to make very impressive power PROVIDED the components used and the displacement are carefully selected and matched and if your 100% set on spinning the engine that fast, you might be much better off buying a used NASCAR race engine, before investing a ton of cash in this project.
the key to making BOTH power and having some hope of durability is in keeping piston speeds under 4500 feet per minute and maintaining valve train control while allowing the heads to flow at least about 280-300cfm , the newer heads like the 18 degree or better yet SB2 are what you need.
read this link
http://www.trickflow.com/articles/18degree_hp/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...sbc-vs-383-sbc-dyno-results.10210/#post-52519
heres a source and info on used sb2 nascar engines
http://www.roushyatesparts.com/used-rac ... -s/532.htm

http://www.eatmonraceparts.com/products ... 818HP.html

http://www.race-cars.com/engsales/chevy ... 3673ss.htm

http://www.derrikecope.com/wcup/98/sb2.htm

http://blogs.popularhotrodding.com/6269 ... r-engines/

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3733&p=12992&hilit=+chevy+weight+displacement#p12992

viewtopic.php?f=50&t=46


now asuming you want to build a rather traditional 23 degree sbc, youll need a light weight 4340 forged crank preferably with a 3" stroke and 6.00" rods forged pistons, that give you about 13:1 compression and a 400 STYLE AFTERMARKET block with a 4.125" bore with 4 bolt main caps , youll have a 321 displacement, but the shorter stroke and larger bore will keep the piston speed under 4500 fpm which is about max you can hope to have and maintain durability.
youll need shaft rockers, about 13:1 compression, a carb that flows at least 850cfm and tunned headers

heads
prof1n.jpg


DON,T FORGET SHAFT ROCKERS ARE A BETTER OPTION THAN STANDARD ROLLER ROCKERS

intake
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-2892

block
http://www.summitracing.com/search?keyw ... 1212&dds=1

rods
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/hrs-b ... /chevrolet

A roller cam similar to this

http://www.cranecams.com/product/cart.p ... il&p=24584
OR THIS
http://www.lunatipower.com/Product.aspx?id=1995

youll want a 3.0" stroke forged crank and a DART block, but that will in some cases require bearing spacers as the dart block has the larger crank journal size
bearingspacersz1.jpg

bearingspacersz2.jpg

and main cap studs
4boltstuds1a.jpg


PERSONALLY the used NASCAR SB2 engines a much better deal

ID also point out the FACT that when the Z28 camaros came out they were considered fast cars with high rpm 302 displacement engines, but it soon became obvious that a similar camaro with a 383-406 sbc engine would leave them watching tail lights every time. remember the only reason they had 302 engines was the racing class they were designed to race in required a max displacement of 5 liters or about 305 cubic inches

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=8379&p=29224&hilit=crossram#p29224

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=7804

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viewtopic.php?f=44&t=38

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BUT GRUMPY! THERES Nothing like the sound of a small block at 8000- 9000 RPM'S !
YES,....it will take thousands of dollars to get there.
Sometimes its worth the look on the face in your rear view mirror of the guy sporting the big block.

Ive raced enough to know that if you spin a SBC at 9000rpm the chances of it lasting very long are greatly reduced and Ive built enough engines of both the SBC and BBC types to know that a well built big block usually has a significant power advantage.
look at it this way, if a 350 makes 1.25 hp per cubic inch your looking at about 438hp
a properly built 454 , would make 568hp with the same 1.25 hp per cubic inch and the 80-120 lb difference in weight won,t make up the difference yes you can build a killer small block if you have a bunch of cash, but you won,t be using stock parts and it won,t be even close to cheap to do it..
 
Grumpy is correct, reliability is important today.
Most people can afford to build a high performance street or all out race engine only once every 1 to 5 years.
Its a big investment.

I want to add what I know about ultra high RPM all out race engines such as a purpose built sbc to rev to 8,000- 11,000 RPMs.
For 1 you can forget about driving this car on the street in any civil manner.
Fire the beast up, get the water temp up to 140 degrees F, check oil pressure & rev to 3,000 RPMs- need 80 to 120 psi oil pressure.
Get ready to stand on the gas & race, launch it full bore at 6,000RPM's.
The lowest obtainable engine speed to keep it from dieing out will be 2,000 RPM's, camshaft duration & overlap along with piston dwell time @ TDC & BDC with short crankshaft stroke dictates engine behavior, built to rev to the moon & make peak HP over 7,500 RPM.
You need plenty of $$$$$$$$. You need Titanium connecting rods custom built by CROWER, $5,500.000 for a set of 8 of these silver lightning engineering & all USA manufactured marvels. Forget about cheep china crap. Stay home & keep dreaming if you can not afford Ti Rods.
You will need A full set of Titanium Valves custom made for your cylinder heads of choice. Bottom line is $100 each.
Best Titanium valves are made by MANLEY Valves. Expect to pay around $130 each, discount for a full set of 16 Ti's....about $2k. Again if you can not afford, stay home & day dream.
$7500 so far.
You will have around $15K + in this engine. It will be wet sumped. Best if dry sumped.

You can also look for a used NASCAR engine.
Expect to pay around $15K.
You want the time trial- hotlap NASCAR engine.........has Titanium connecting rods. Built to rev to the moon & earn the driver pole position for the big race coming soon. Race day engine has billet steel Carillo connecting rods.
All special purpose built parts, including spark plugs.

I have a full set of Crower Titanium connecting rods custom made for a Pontiac V8, 6.9375 center to center length.
Also have custom made Manley Titanium Valves for 1970 Pontiac Ram Air IV heads.
I did real well before the recession hit in 2007. Single then too.
 
87vette81big said:
You can also look for a used NASCAR engine.
Expect to pay around $15K.
1.) You want the time trial- hotlap NASCAR engine.........has Titanium connecting rods. Built to rev to the moon & earn the driver pole position for the big race coming soon. Race day engine has billet steel Carillo connecting rods.

2.) I have a full set of Crower Titanium connecting rods custom made for a Pontiac V8, 6.9375 center to center length.
Also have custom made Manley Titanium Valves for 1970 Pontiac Ram Air IV heads.
I did real well before the recession hit in 2007. Single then too.
Click to expand...

1.) That's interesting in the differences in engines for qualifying and race day. Not surprised with the amount of money at stake. But as an outsider, you always wonder what's the difference.

2.) So what's the story.....what are you doing with them. Come on you can spill the beans, with pictures would be best!!! :p

 
Indycars said:
87vette81big said:
You can also look for a used NASCAR engine.
Expect to pay around $15K.
1.) You want the time trial- hotlap NASCAR engine.........has Titanium connecting rods. Built to rev to the moon & earn the driver pole position for the big race coming soon. Race day engine has billet steel Carillo connecting rods.

2.) I have a full set of Crower Titanium connecting rods custom made for a Pontiac V8, 6.9375 center to center length.
Also have custom made Manley Titanium Valves for 1970 Pontiac Ram Air IV heads.
I did real well before the recession hit in 2007. Single then too.
Click to expand...

1.) That's interesting in the differences in engines for qualifying and race day. Not surprised with the amount of money at stake. But as an outsider, you always wonder what's the difference.

2.) So what's the story.....what are you doing with them. Come on you can spill the beans, with pictures would be best!!! :p

Click to expand...

The Ti, connecting rods, for a dream Poncho engine someday.

The Manley Valves are destined for my 1970 Trans Am Ram Air 4 (#614) heads.
Ti intakes already in there. Valves not at my house here. Other garage.

Rods are put away in my basement. Forget the gram weight, but they are real light each for such a long connecting rod.

I can tell you from experience using Titanium intake valves, if you can afford its worth it %100 percent.
Engine revs cleaner, valvesprings going bad prematurely is a thing of the past. You can lessen seat pressure 10 to 15 lbs each and still have same peak RPM engine wind out as you ran before with stainless valves.
Usable power band extends about 500+ RPM's everything else being equal and exact in earlier engine build using stainless steel intake valves.
My theory is that valve float in a single or multiple intake valves happens more often than you would think above 6,500RPM's.
Impossible to prove exact without a spintron & high speed photography equipment.
No problems using Ti vlaves on the street long term, seat wear issues, valve face pitting or guttering, micro welding of valve face & cylinder head seats.

Whatever you do, do not clean Titanium with chlorinated solvent cleaners such as Brake cleaner.
Ruins the meturalogy I am told.
Clean only with fresh & new virgin mineral spirits or 100 % denatured alcohol.

Brian R.
 
Grumpy,

A history lesson discussion is maybe in order with One particular engine build that had success in drag racing.
The 301 ci Chevy.
283 ci based, Corvette Fuelie 2.02 heads.

I knew a guy with a 1960's drag rail 20 some years ago.
301 ci Sbc.
Ran into the 8's 1/4 mile.
Crower or Hilborn injected I recall, alcohol fuel, Vertex magneto fired.
My late friend Bill built the engine with a guy that ran a machine shop.
Eddie Betz, he was from Kentucky & settled in Illinois.
Lost track of the race car years ago.
It set a National record back in the day that stood for some time.

So any insight or experience with 301 Chevy's, I will be educated too by You.
 
OK lets start with the basic physics, it takes a great deal less horsepower to push a 1700-1800 lb rail (dragster) to speed and a rail has a great deal less wind resistance than a normal muscle car.
back in the late 1960s-early 1970s a non-supercharged sbc with 302 cubic inches, with top quality components (certainly not a street combo) could probably make 500 rear wheel hp from a good engine builder and allow an 1800 lb car (drivers weight included) to run 8.9 seconds at 150 mph
throw that same engine in a 3500 lb street car and with the correct gears, tires etc, very high 10 second or low 11 second times at about 120-125 mph was likely.
most of us old geezers remember GRUMPS TOY VEGA running high 9 second passes in pro stock, the car had a 331 sbc and the rules stated it weighted more than 2300 lbs and I doubt it had a single stock, un-modified or non- lightened part in it
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bill_Jenki ... agracer%29

keep in mind jenkins built the largest SBC that the then current head flow technology would allow him too and still maximize the power to weight ratio,over the intended peak power band he intended to race the engine in, thats why getting the car weight low was mandatory

by todays technology the 1970s power levels were a joke, as 800-900hp plus non supercharged dragster small blocks can be built using the best current heads
remember he was working with radically ported basically stock head castings, while todays engines can have vastly improved flowing heads
http://www.rbracing-rsr.com/runnertorquecalc.html

SBC 525 hp $10K
http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines/427_realstreet.php

SBC $14K 600 plus hp
http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines/472_bigdawg.php

BBC for $16K--900hp
http://www.ultrastreet.net/engines/598_ ... wisted.php



REALITY CHECK
viewtopic.php?f=87&t=1938&p=5136&hilit=fast+weight#p5136

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=3404&p=8992&hilit=fast+weight#p8992

HORSEPOWER/WEIGHT/ET CALCULATORS

http://www.wallaceracing.com/et-hp-mph.php

http://www.wallaceracing.com/accel-calc.php

http://robrobinette.com/et.htm

RELATED INFO

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=4302&p=12404&hilit=crossram#p12404

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3024&hilit=crossram

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=6849&p=22226&hilit=grand+sport#p22226

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=2045&p=5455&hilit=crossram#p5455
 
What was actually faster & had more HP & torque Grumpy from back in the day ?
The DZ 302 or the Boss 302 ?
Legend has it Roger Penskees 1968 Camaro had a special built 302 by Traco Race engines that outputted 600 Hp. Endurance engine, Trans Am Race Series of the 1960's into 1970's. Was it BS ? More like 500 HP ? or less ?

You were there, I was born in 1969.

I have heard that the Boss 302 was more powerfull in full Trans Am Race series prepping.
 
Indycars said:
87vette81big said:
You can also look for a used NASCAR engine.
Expect to pay around $15K.
1.) You want the time trial- hotlap NASCAR engine.........has Titanium connecting rods. Built to rev to the moon & earn the driver pole position for the big race coming soon. Race day engine has billet steel Carillo connecting rods.

2.) I have a full set of Crower Titanium connecting rods custom made for a Pontiac V8, 6.9375 center to center length.
Also have custom made Manley Titanium Valves for 1970 Pontiac Ram Air IV heads.
I did real well before the recession hit in 2007. Single then too.
Click to expand...

1.) That's interesting in the differences in engines for qualifying and race day. Not surprised with the amount of money at stake. But as an outsider, you always wonder what's the difference.

2.) So what's the story.....what are you doing with them. Come on you can spill the beans, with pictures would be best!!! :p

Click to expand...

I don't have the image sizing correct for Grumpy's Forum.
Please feel free to resize them for easier viewing.
The Silver things are the Crower Titanium Connecting rods for a Pontiac V8, 6.9375" or 6-15/16" center to center length.
The other darker connecting rod is a Crower Sportsman Forged Steel Rod. Had them custom made about 2 years ago. 6.625 or 6-5/8" rods.
What rods would you use in a 455 Pontiac ?
:D
I have more than 1 engine project going on.
Actually building 3. Collected parts to complete them all this year.

Have an itch to build up a 1964 Pontiac 389 for the street too I also have put away.

BR

ECHbis.jpg



EUHqv.jpg














 
you didn,t mention the rod journal size on both connecting rods , but in most cases I would use the steel connecting rods and save the titanium rods for a really full race application build.
as Im sure your aware youll want a good forged crank and good heads, along with a decent intake.


theres a bunch of good info in the links and sub links
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1154&p=29335&hilit=pontiac#p29335

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=7300&p=24841&hilit=pontiac#p24841

http://www.ohiocrank.com/pont_cranks.html

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdud ... ankpn.html

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/cra ... ranks.html

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4125&p=20488&hilit=pontiac#p20488

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=6421&p=20306&hilit=pontiac#p20306

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=6164&p=19299&hilit=pontiac#p19299

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3213&p=17212&hilit=pontiac#p17212

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=4521&p=13360&hilit=pontiac#p13360

viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4067&p=10823&hilit=pontiac#p10823

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2456&p=6419&hilit=pontiac#p6419

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2358&p=6226&hilit=pontiac#p6226
 
grumpyvette said:
you didn,t mention the rod journal size on both connecting rods , but in most cases I would use the steel connecting rods and save the titanium rods for a really full race application build.
as Im sure your aware youll want a good forged crank and good heads, along with a decent intake.


theres a bunch of good info in the links and sub links
viewtopic.php?f=44&t=1154&p=29335&hilit=pontiac#p29335

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=7300&p=24841&hilit=pontiac#p24841

http://www.ohiocrank.com/pont_cranks.html

http://www.angelfire.com/fl4/pontiacdud ... ankpn.html

http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/cra ... ranks.html

Both sets of Crower Rods have Pontiac V8 engine Big end Journal Size Grumpy.

The 6AL4V Titanium rods have Big Block Chevy .990" inch small pin size.

The Sportsman Crower rods have standard Pontiac V8 .980" inch small end pin size.

I have known a few Pontiac Nostalgia Super Stock Racers. Rules are pretty lenient on engine builds other than Cubic inch displacement & weight break.
Titanium rods have 2 full power passes on them.
440 + ci Pontiac V8. Spun through the traps @ 9,000 RPM's @ around 950 HP. At the time a $65 K engine build. Deep 8 second 1/4 mile drag machine door slammer.
This guy was very well off I knew.
Changed engine builds & made him an offer he did not refuse. Paid him cash on the spot. He told me the Titanium rods costed him over $6500.00 to have made.

Yes, using the Crower Sportsman forged rods in my 1970 Pontiac 455 build.
Rated at 800 Hp @ 8,000 RPM's. or 100 hp per cylinder.
More than adequate for my needs with a nice safety margin for long term durability.

The Titanium Crower rods are rated at over 2,000 HP @ 9,000 RPM's. or 250 HP per cylinder.

I have never found it necessary to use a forged crankshaft in a Pontiac 455 for my usage.
All are cast iron.
Early engines have Nodular iron cranks, told they are adequate up to 800 HP with proper prepping & machine work.
Billet steel Crower Pontiac cranks made to your specs cost $5k.

BR





viewtopic.php?f=44&t=4125&p=20488&hilit=pontiac#p20488

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=6421&p=20306&hilit=pontiac#p20306

viewtopic.php?f=87&t=6164&p=19299&hilit=pontiac#p19299

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=3213&p=17212&hilit=pontiac#p17212

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viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4067&p=10823&hilit=pontiac#p10823

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viewtopic.php?f=44&t=2358&p=6226&hilit=pontiac#p6226
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grumpyvette said:
Ive seen both 2.20" (BBC CHEVY SIZE) and 2.25" Pontiac rod journal sizes
yes the 2.20 is really big block chevy rod journal size but its not all that rare to find aftermarket performance Pontiac rods sold with that size rod journals either so I thought Id mention checking that
http://www.jbp-pontiac.com/products/cra ... ranks.html
Click to expand...

Pontiac guys are their own breed Grumpy.
Some are so prejudiced against anything Chevrolet.
I am neutral.
Prefer all Pontiac Blueprint specifications & tolerances used.
But I will take what I can get my hands on.

When your using a crankshaft stroke of 4.500 or up to 5.00 inch in a Pontiac 455 or Indian Adventure Tall Deck Poncho V8, that is the time to use the smaller journal BBC rod size.

Besides, some of my best thrill & joy rides over 150 was in a Corvette. My late buds 81 Vette. 572BBC.
They say it won't stay together, over 540 ci, but his always did.
He had a strong love afair with Pontiacs as You do too Grumpy.
Pontiac V8 built & cammed even on the mild side has a rumble & Midrange power band like no other engine I have experienced.
I do admit its 100 times easier & less inexpensive to go fast with a sbc or BBC.

Best to have & drive both if possible I say- Pontiacs & a Corvette.

BR
 
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