Most hunters I know or have hunted with over the years are reluctant to change what has worked for them in the past, some guys buy darn near every new thing on the market, assuming that its NEW AND IMPROVED .
the truth is that its the skill of the guy operating the rifle that in most cases that's the deciding factor, in any hunt, but as we gain experience most of us find a favorite rifle and caliber or two based on past experience and we tend to trust those choices.
Yet the vast majority of the guys I've hunted with just grab the rifle they have owned for decades, or borrow their dads old deer rifle, and assume its ideal,
few bother to experiment or watch other peoples results...
many have the attitude that, hey, I got a 30/06 or a 270 win or 7 mm mag, all the gun magazines say that's ideal!
I've always been rather amazed by the fact so few people are willing to try new things , or just assume that anything new is better, or are reluctant too accept advice from old geezers, or really watch carefully to see both what other people use and how well that worked in the field, it takes years for some people to try old well proven ideas, even when they have seen other people have excellent results.
my old hunting partner jack is quick too try and accept or reject advice based on what he sees actually work in the field and he and I exchange new ideas frequently.
we both started hunting with 30/06 rifles, I rapidly decided I needed a larger more powerful rifle mostly based on the false Idea that the elk I shot with my 30/06 should have always dropped on the bullet impact ,those first elk left me with the impresion, that the 30/06 was lacking lethality. the first three elk and even one mule deer I shot were all hit exactly where I intended the bullets to hit, yet every one took off on a short 20-40 yard run before falling.
the fact that the first two elk I hit with my 340 weatherby and 250 grain hornady bullets dropped on the spot further impressed that idea, that the 30/06 I had been using was lacking as being correct, Jack thought he would do even better and purchased a 375 H&H, and also had excellent results that impressed him!
decades of further hunting experience and watching dozens of other big game being shot and killed eventually , had me realize the results I saw in the field favor a guy that can accurately place his shots and that at least in my mind the 338-45 caliber rifles do hold an advantage in lethality in skilled hands, but I learned that no caliber rifle works with 100% reliability, some animal even when hit nearly perfectly will run a short distance before piling up.
if your pragmatic you quickly see that a single shot correctly placed from most any caliber rifle is very lethal and that its not un-common for well hit game to run a short distance reguardless of the rifle thats been used!.
Jack and I have both used 458 win mags and 45/70 rifles on ELK and had good results but they did not prove to be any more effective than the 340 wby and 375 H&H we hunt with more frequently.
and you certainly don,t need that power level on the local deer or hogs, in fact my late hunting partner Ron used a 358 win BLR for decades on elk with total satisfaction, and refered to my 340 wby, as "PAULS CANNON"
This brings me to my neighbor Bill who was recently invited to one of his cousins ranches for a hog hunt,he was constantly bitching about how previous deer hunts had resulted in long tracking jobs
(I didn,t suggest he learn to shoot better because I know hes been practicing lately)
he has a decent 30/30 win lever action ,but asked to borrow one of my rifles, I let him borrow my BLR in 358 win as hes familiar with lever guns.....he was rather reluctant to take my advice from experience that the 358 win was more than adequate (as was my advice that his 30/30 was fully up to the job) but he took the BLR and went on the trip last week, he returned the carbine today. He said that the first morning he was hunting a 130 lb hog walked out onto a dirt road he was walking on, at about 130 yards, it stopped with most of its body showing so Bill sat down, got the cross hairs in the scope on his upper shoulder, and squeezed off a single shot, the hog fell like someone had cut him off at the knees instantly,never even twitched.
Bill stated the 250 grain speer had passed clear through, taking out a golf ball size chunk of shoulder and spine as it exited.(so the bullet must have impacted near the red X)
Bill , like my late hunting partner Ron, was, he is now convinced hes found the perfect hunting rifle and he offered to buy my 358, BLR .
based on a single hundred yard instant kill, (something he never had happen with his 30/30.
I explained that although the 358 win was a good deal more powerful than a 30/30 and a 35 caliber 250 grain bullet at nearly 2400 fps has a good deal more energy than a typical 150 grain 30/30, it was not going to always produce instant kills.
I strongly suggested he purchase his own, 358 win BLR and learn to hand load a speer 250 grain 358 win BLR
(but he better hurry because every place I called stated they were currently out of stock)
now I'm surely not suggesting any one rifle or caliber is ideal, but if you are not willing to try several, out on different hunts, I don,t see how you get a good feel for what works well for you personally.
Bill hunted for decades with his 94 winchester 30/30, now it dawns on him that that might not be his ideal choice!
btw the loads Ive used for decades
44 grains of IMR 4064 a 250 speer and a 215 fed primer
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=358 Winchester&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.700" 47.0 2442 42,500 CUP 51.0C 2594 48,200 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.700" 49.0 2450 42,600 CUP 52.0 2555 46,500 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.700" 44.0 2338 42,700 CUP 47.5 2504 48,900 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.700" 44.0 2408 41,500 CUP 48.0C 2603 49,900 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.700" 43.0 2419 44,900 CUP 47.0 2574 50,300 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.700" 40.0 2380 46,900 CUP 44.0 2522 49,700 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.650" 47.0 2376 41,100 CUP 51.0C 2527 47,900 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4320 .358" 2.650" 51.0C 2545 51,700 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4064 .358" 2.650" 49.0C 2525 46,200 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Winchester 748 .358" 2.650" 50.6 2500 50,000 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.650" 49.0 2329 31,500 CUP 52.0 2464 41,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4895 .358" 2.650" 49.0C 2565 50,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.650" 44.0 2300 40,000 CUP 48.5 2484 48,400 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.650" 44.0 2316 40,200 CUP 48.0C 2519 49,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 3031 .358" 2.650" 49.0C 2630 51,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.650" 42.0 2319 42,700 CUP 46.2 2494 50,000 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.650" 40.0 2306 45,400 CUP 44.8 2491 49,400 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR SR 4759 .358" 2.650" 29.5 2170 52,000 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.560" 46.0 2226 42,800 CUP 50.0C 2445 50,300 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.560" 48.0 2238 37,600 CUP 51.0 2355 43,900 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.560" 42.0 2181 42,200 CUP 46.0 2352 49,400 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.560" 43.0 2227 41,500 CUP 47.5C 2421 50,200 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.560" 41.0 2184 39,400 CUP 45.0 2361 49,500 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.560" 40.0 2243 45,700 CUP 44.0 2371 49,300 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.770" 45.0 2254 40,700 CUP 49.0 2451 50,600 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.770" 48.0 2324 39,900 CUP 51.0 2431 45,400 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.770" 42.0 2231 43,500 CUP 46.0 2390 48,500 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.770" 42.0 2223 41,700 CUP 46.5 2422 50,300 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.770" 40.0 2211 44,200 CUP 44.0 2354 50,600 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.770" 41.0 2275 46,000 CUP 43.0 2372 50,300 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.760" 43.0 2119 39,500 CUP 47.0C 2278 48,600 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4320 .358" 2.760" 44.5 2210 51,400 CUP
250 GR. SPEER SPITZER IMR 4064 .358" 2.760" 44.0C 2270 52,000 CUP
most accurate load we found
250 GR. NOS PART Winchester 748 .358" 2.760" 46.2 2250 50,500 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.760" 44.0 2121 39,900 CUP 47.0 2240 47,200 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4895 .358" 2.760" 43.0 2235 51,200 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.760" 39.0 1987 39,200 CUP 43.0 2184 50,500 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.760" 40.0 2057 40,400 CUP 44.5C 2257 50,500 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 3031 .358" 2.760" 42.0 2260 50,800 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.760" 38.0 2030 39,800 CUP 42.0 2176 49,400 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.760" 38.0 2095 43,500 CUP 42.5 2260 49,900 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR SR 4759 .358" 2.760" 26.0 1845 51,400 CUP
the truth is that its the skill of the guy operating the rifle that in most cases that's the deciding factor, in any hunt, but as we gain experience most of us find a favorite rifle and caliber or two based on past experience and we tend to trust those choices.
Yet the vast majority of the guys I've hunted with just grab the rifle they have owned for decades, or borrow their dads old deer rifle, and assume its ideal,
few bother to experiment or watch other peoples results...
many have the attitude that, hey, I got a 30/06 or a 270 win or 7 mm mag, all the gun magazines say that's ideal!
I've always been rather amazed by the fact so few people are willing to try new things , or just assume that anything new is better, or are reluctant too accept advice from old geezers, or really watch carefully to see both what other people use and how well that worked in the field, it takes years for some people to try old well proven ideas, even when they have seen other people have excellent results.
my old hunting partner jack is quick too try and accept or reject advice based on what he sees actually work in the field and he and I exchange new ideas frequently.
we both started hunting with 30/06 rifles, I rapidly decided I needed a larger more powerful rifle mostly based on the false Idea that the elk I shot with my 30/06 should have always dropped on the bullet impact ,those first elk left me with the impresion, that the 30/06 was lacking lethality. the first three elk and even one mule deer I shot were all hit exactly where I intended the bullets to hit, yet every one took off on a short 20-40 yard run before falling.
the fact that the first two elk I hit with my 340 weatherby and 250 grain hornady bullets dropped on the spot further impressed that idea, that the 30/06 I had been using was lacking as being correct, Jack thought he would do even better and purchased a 375 H&H, and also had excellent results that impressed him!
decades of further hunting experience and watching dozens of other big game being shot and killed eventually , had me realize the results I saw in the field favor a guy that can accurately place his shots and that at least in my mind the 338-45 caliber rifles do hold an advantage in lethality in skilled hands, but I learned that no caliber rifle works with 100% reliability, some animal even when hit nearly perfectly will run a short distance before piling up.
if your pragmatic you quickly see that a single shot correctly placed from most any caliber rifle is very lethal and that its not un-common for well hit game to run a short distance reguardless of the rifle thats been used!.
Jack and I have both used 458 win mags and 45/70 rifles on ELK and had good results but they did not prove to be any more effective than the 340 wby and 375 H&H we hunt with more frequently.
and you certainly don,t need that power level on the local deer or hogs, in fact my late hunting partner Ron used a 358 win BLR for decades on elk with total satisfaction, and refered to my 340 wby, as "PAULS CANNON"
This brings me to my neighbor Bill who was recently invited to one of his cousins ranches for a hog hunt,he was constantly bitching about how previous deer hunts had resulted in long tracking jobs
(I didn,t suggest he learn to shoot better because I know hes been practicing lately)
he has a decent 30/30 win lever action ,but asked to borrow one of my rifles, I let him borrow my BLR in 358 win as hes familiar with lever guns.....he was rather reluctant to take my advice from experience that the 358 win was more than adequate (as was my advice that his 30/30 was fully up to the job) but he took the BLR and went on the trip last week, he returned the carbine today. He said that the first morning he was hunting a 130 lb hog walked out onto a dirt road he was walking on, at about 130 yards, it stopped with most of its body showing so Bill sat down, got the cross hairs in the scope on his upper shoulder, and squeezed off a single shot, the hog fell like someone had cut him off at the knees instantly,never even twitched.
Bill stated the 250 grain speer had passed clear through, taking out a golf ball size chunk of shoulder and spine as it exited.(so the bullet must have impacted near the red X)
Bill , like my late hunting partner Ron, was, he is now convinced hes found the perfect hunting rifle and he offered to buy my 358, BLR .
based on a single hundred yard instant kill, (something he never had happen with his 30/30.
I explained that although the 358 win was a good deal more powerful than a 30/30 and a 35 caliber 250 grain bullet at nearly 2400 fps has a good deal more energy than a typical 150 grain 30/30, it was not going to always produce instant kills.
I strongly suggested he purchase his own, 358 win BLR and learn to hand load a speer 250 grain 358 win BLR
(but he better hurry because every place I called stated they were currently out of stock)
now I'm surely not suggesting any one rifle or caliber is ideal, but if you are not willing to try several, out on different hunts, I don,t see how you get a good feel for what works well for you personally.
Bill hunted for decades with his 94 winchester 30/30, now it dawns on him that that might not be his ideal choice!
btw the loads Ive used for decades
44 grains of IMR 4064 a 250 speer and a 215 fed primer
http://handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=358 Winchester&Weight=All&type=Rifle&Order=Powder&Source=
Bullet Weight (Gr.) Manufacturer Powder Bullet Diam. C.O.L. Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure Grs. Vel. (ft/s) Pressure
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.700" 47.0 2442 42,500 CUP 51.0C 2594 48,200 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.700" 49.0 2450 42,600 CUP 52.0 2555 46,500 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.700" 44.0 2338 42,700 CUP 47.5 2504 48,900 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.700" 44.0 2408 41,500 CUP 48.0C 2603 49,900 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.700" 43.0 2419 44,900 CUP 47.0 2574 50,300 CUP
180 GR. BAR X Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.700" 40.0 2380 46,900 CUP 44.0 2522 49,700 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.650" 47.0 2376 41,100 CUP 51.0C 2527 47,900 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4320 .358" 2.650" 51.0C 2545 51,700 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4064 .358" 2.650" 49.0C 2525 46,200 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Winchester 748 .358" 2.650" 50.6 2500 50,000 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.650" 49.0 2329 31,500 CUP 52.0 2464 41,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 4895 .358" 2.650" 49.0C 2565 50,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.650" 44.0 2300 40,000 CUP 48.5 2484 48,400 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.650" 44.0 2316 40,200 CUP 48.0C 2519 49,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR IMR 3031 .358" 2.650" 49.0C 2630 51,800 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.650" 42.0 2319 42,700 CUP 46.2 2494 50,000 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.650" 40.0 2306 45,400 CUP 44.8 2491 49,400 CUP
200 GR. HDY SP IMR SR 4759 .358" 2.650" 29.5 2170 52,000 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.560" 46.0 2226 42,800 CUP 50.0C 2445 50,300 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.560" 48.0 2238 37,600 CUP 51.0 2355 43,900 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.560" 42.0 2181 42,200 CUP 46.0 2352 49,400 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.560" 43.0 2227 41,500 CUP 47.5C 2421 50,200 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.560" 41.0 2184 39,400 CUP 45.0 2361 49,500 CUP
220 GR. SPR FN SP Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.560" 40.0 2243 45,700 CUP 44.0 2371 49,300 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.770" 45.0 2254 40,700 CUP 49.0 2451 50,600 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.770" 48.0 2324 39,900 CUP 51.0 2431 45,400 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.770" 42.0 2231 43,500 CUP 46.0 2390 48,500 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.770" 42.0 2223 41,700 CUP 46.5 2422 50,300 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.770" 40.0 2211 44,200 CUP 44.0 2354 50,600 CUP
225 GR. SIE BTSP Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.770" 41.0 2275 46,000 CUP 43.0 2372 50,300 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Varget .358" 2.760" 43.0 2119 39,500 CUP 47.0C 2278 48,600 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4320 .358" 2.760" 44.5 2210 51,400 CUP
250 GR. SPEER SPITZER IMR 4064 .358" 2.760" 44.0C 2270 52,000 CUP
most accurate load we found
250 GR. NOS PART Winchester 748 .358" 2.760" 46.2 2250 50,500 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon BL-C(2) .358" 2.760" 44.0 2121 39,900 CUP 47.0 2240 47,200 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 4895 .358" 2.760" 43.0 2235 51,200 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H335 .358" 2.760" 39.0 1987 39,200 CUP 43.0 2184 50,500 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H4895 .358" 2.760" 40.0 2057 40,400 CUP 44.5C 2257 50,500 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR IMR 3031 .358" 2.760" 42.0 2260 50,800 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon Benchmark .358" 2.760" 38.0 2030 39,800 CUP 42.0 2176 49,400 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART Hodgdon H322 .358" 2.760" 38.0 2095 43,500 CUP 42.5 2260 49,900 CUP
250 GR. NOS PART IMR SR 4759 .358" 2.760" 26.0 1845 51,400 CUP
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