its your ammo and shot placement that makes the hand gun effective

Discussion in 'handgun related' started by Grumpy, Dec 5, 2017.

  1. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    I went too the range last night with one of my neighbors that had purchased a new glock 45 acp,
    for his personal protection carry pistol.he had spent a month or so doing some research and decided that he did not want a 9mm , 40 cal, or a 357 sig caliber handgun.
    I had suggested a glock 10 mm , or a 45 acp,
    ( he had, in my opinion, rather foolishly, refused to test shoot, my 10 mm pistol, as I'd offered several times to let him, before making his choice)
    and he had decided, too select the 45 acp based on several discussions with the local gun-shop counter guy.
    now a 45 acp cartridge is certainly one of the better choices,
    so its not like he screwed up,selecting the 45 acp vs the 10-mm,
    but I suppose being a hand loader I see the 10-mm as having a minor edge in power ,
    and a couple extra cartridges in the magazine capacity ,
    so thats the route I selected.
    and yes the ammo is more common and generally a bit less expensive, for the 45 acp..
    I can safely say that the better 45 acp ammo does kill deer and hogs much more effectively in my experience than any 9mm ammo yet tried.
    I can absolutely assure anyone reading this thread that where you hit a deer or hog has a profound effect on how effectively you will be at dropping that animal at the point of bullet impact, and that the larger and more powerful caliber handguns with similar hits have a noticeably more rapid incapacitation.
    (thus from a pragmatic stand point I feel much better armed with a 10mm or 45 acp, than I would with a 38 spcl or 9 mm)
    deer and hogs, I've seen hit with a 9 mm (here in florida thats legal) have rarely fallen close to where hit, and while a 45 acp and 10 mm are not my first choice, for hunting with a hand-gun, the results have been noticeably and consistently better.(look through the videos posted below and see why)

    pure physics strongly suggests that the larger in diameter, the heavier and the faster a projectile is, the more energy it retains and in theory the deeper it penetrates, and the more tissue it can destroy on impact, if its correctly constructed,
    but this also results in more recoil, at some point a compromise between available power and ease of control and accuracy must be chosen
    I'd remind you most defensive use for a handgun will be at well under 30 yards.

    ,from a practical and experienced based compromise the 9mm is near the higher edge in ease of handling , reasonable accuracy and easy control and the 10mm and 45 acp loaded with the better ammo, is nearer the upper edge of effectiveness, that can be maintained while still having rapid and accurate shot placement, but higher recoil and noise levels mandates more practice, before proficiency is attained.
    if you can,t accurately place shots where they are intended, caliber or power is meaningless,

    and if a well placed hit,to center mass or two, on any opponent attacking you won,t reasonably incapacitate an opponent very rapidly,your using the wrong tool.
    before anyone selects a pistol or chooses a pistol caliber to use, in that handgun, one would normally expect the purchaser, too think a bit about what the intended use for the pistol would be and if that choice would best match that intended use.
    we all have slightly different expectations and a bit of research before making the purchase would certainly not hurt.
    the main factor is WHAT DO YOU INTEND TO DO WITH THAT HANDGUN,AND WHAT LIMITATIONS ARE YOU WILLING TO PUT UP WITH,
    a couple decades of field experience show that the 40 S&W and 10mm are both effective for self defensive use against human predators,
    if the shots are placed into the vitals, the 40 S&W gives up a bit of power to gain a smaller size and less recoil,
    but its hotter loads certainly provide you with reasonable lethality against closer range, human threats
    something like a EAA 40 S&W or 10mm makes either a very effective defensive tool that could be used for hog hunts ,
    the higher capacity and quick reload potential of the semi-auto handgun, might be useful in a gunfight but its unlikely to be a factor hunting,
    [​IMG]

    S&W 1006 10mm
    [​IMG]

    now if your going hunting the 10mm has potentially a few hundred extra fps so you gain power, at the cost of less easily concealed size but a bit more punch,but its not the ideal hunting tool, yes it does work , but in my experience, its not ideal.
    but its still well under what something like a true hunting tool that you don,t have much use for concealment with like 44 mag, 454 cassul, or 480 ruger could provide for you in a larger and longer range hunting weapon, like a 6"-7.5"-10" ruger , dan wesson,or smith & wesson,revolver
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    well the point here is that he went too sight in the pistol , at the local range and after we had that minor project, under control, he eventually and a bit reluctantly ,decided to try my 10mm... the result was about as I had mentioned several times previously.... after tying both pistols ,he admitted that he could feel a minor increase in recoil and the 10mm was marginal louder , but he was just as able too, shoot both hand guns about equally well, (and in fact the target he shot at 7 yards was noticeably better, with my 10mm) than he shot with his new 45 acp... more than likely because he was starting to relax at the range and become more familiar with the glock hand guns. the counter guy at the gun-shop had some how convinced him that the 10mm was much too powerful and that a 45 acp was just the perfect choice.
    once he had actually tried both pistols he stated he doubted if I had not told him which caliber it was, shooting, that he would have noticed any appreciable difference.
    the discussion went on a bit and I pointed out that ,
    its your ammo and shot placement that makes the hand gun effective, it does not really mater a great deal if you use a 45 acp or a 10 mm if you can,t accurately place your shots and its the projectile that does all the damage, thus selecting 100% reliable and accurate ammo that functions 100% flawlessly in your particular pistol and being able to hit where you intend too is critical and the only way to test reliability and gain the required shills is through constant practice (heres where that 45 acp has a advantage, in lower ammo cost if you don,t reload.) the vast majority of people that carry a handgun, will thankfully never need to defend their lives , but the percentage that do carry , that have, ever drawn their pistol, ,or have stopped a crime in progress is a bit higher than the media would like to admit.....

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...n-a-defensive-handgun-would-be-and-why.11908/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...arry-that-concealed-handgun.14502/#post-75837

    related linked videos
    all the comparative data between different calibers and pistol vs rifle etc might seem to indicate that caliber and power does not mater as much as most people think it does, but they IGNORE the fact that accurate shot placement, a knowledge of anatomy is critical, simply shooting at the adversary's torso and hitting it someplace does not indicate a well placed shot,as any hunter knows or learns, put a shot through the heart,, both lung's or , liver shots that destroy a lot of tissue as the pass through and exit, are generally fatal,
    I find this comparison below between the two well documented,
    and well known to be effective calibers, 10mm and 357 mag,
    rather interesting
    notice the lighter bullet weights penetrate less
    (as you may expect) but both would be effective







     
    Last edited: Aug 14, 2018
  2. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    on the surface if your goal is to justify a decision this FBI statement looks impressive, and if you have not had real field experience I'm sure this looks both conclusive, based in some logic and based on experience, and yes its stated like it appears to be well documented

    READ AND THINK

    the info is logically presented to justify the posted conclusion,
    yes most of the points brought up are valid, no question there,
    but they go to lengths too ignore physics, and the fact that the basic premise, is based on the the FBI,s desire too both reduce recoil , lower ammo cost, and reduce gun wear and thus reduce training and pistol size and weight.
    anyone who has ever shot several deer and hogs with expanding 9mm and a similar 10mm hand guns will tell you there,s usually a noticeable difference in the reaction of game being hit
    (a heart/lung shot from either will prove lethal, due to both blood loss and or the heart/lungs failure),
    but that,s not the same thing as rapid and consistent incapacitation.
    pure physics and testing can rapidly prove a projectile of similar construction,
    in a larger caliber that has more mass and being pushed to similar velocities,
    will tend too penetrate deeper and cause more tissue destruction in the wound channel.
    If you remember the reason and history ,
    why the FBI changed to the 10mm after the miami shoot-out and then changed to the 40 S&W

    http://www.guns.com/2011/08/24/the-...ight-that-changed-law-enforcement-nationwide/

    you can justify several conclusions,reading the report,

    but heres some facts
    (1) shot placement to critical organs is by far the most important factor
    if you remember the details of the miami shoot-out a 9mm failed to penetrate deep enough to reach the criminal heart
    (2)there were a great many shots fired by the FBI agents that failed to hit their opponents
    (3) the FBI knew there was potentially gong to be a gun fight but they failed to arm themselves to over whelm the potential opponents , I think most people would conclude that had all the FBI agents had carried both pistols and either m1 carbines or AR15 style rifles the chances would be swung much more in their favor.
    (4) no one can realistically propose that a
    165 grain 10mm
    Caliber : 10mm
    Fps: 1400fps from a 5" bbl
    718 ft lbs

    http://rangehot.com/10mm-ballistic-gel-test-with-hornady-ammo/#lightbox/3/

    http://dailycaller.com/2015/11/05/how-does-your-ammo-stack-up-117-handgun-loads-compared/


    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/self-defense-ammo-ballistic-tests/

    is not going to out perform a 115 grain 9mm
    Velocity: 1290fps and 425 ft lbs - 4.5" bbl
    Caliber : 9mm
    Bullet : 115gr Controlled Expansion™ JHP




    if you break down the facts the 10mm is slightly more effective but the increased recoil requires more training and may have limited some weaker applicants skills
    IN my opinion, (those that can,t use the equipment should have either been dis-qualified or given the option to use a 9mm)
    and yes the larger pistol is a bit harder to conceal,but I've done so for several decades so its not that difficult to do, but thats not really a valid concern on going into a potential gun fight, where any sane combatant will wear body armor and carry a true combat weapon as a primary weapon with the pistol as back-up
     
    Last edited: Feb 8, 2018
  3. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member






    what a great many of these discussions lack is details on what projectile was used and where it impacted, how deeply it penetrated and what vital organ was missed or destroyed..
    anyone who has a decent quality 357 mag or larger bore revolver, or quality, 10 mm semi auto, loaded with the correct ammo and assuming your personal having the skills,the ability to place shots precisely has the required tool to kill any bear, elk, deer or hog, based on the fact that a properly loaded hard cast bullet, of the proper design, from a revolver like a 357 mag will without any doubt punch through a bears, elk, deer or hog,skull into the brain or through the chest wall into the heart/lung area.
    thats not the same thing as saying a 357 mag will instantly stop an infuriated bear full of Adrenalin,who might see your destruction as his only goal at that time.
    But if you start randomly punching holes in his anatomy.
    only hits to the brain,or forward central spine,from behind the head to the area between the shoulders will be likely to provide a nearly instant mobility stop, you can randomly punch an infuriated bear full of Adrenalin,as full of holes as a colander, used to strain water off spaghetti, if you don,t destroy the vitals and that bear will want to discuss your lack of proper marksmanship up close and personal, with you for well over the time he requires to bleed out.
    now a larger handgun caliber like a 44 mag, 480 ruger, 454 cassul, 500 S&W, will without doubt destroy far more tissue, with each shots impact, this does increase your odds of creating significant and lethal damage , and inflicting pain that may cause the animal to retreat., but the fact still remains that the vitals must be hit to provide an instant mobility or lethal damage stop.
    most people under stress can,t hit crap, and just shoot in the general direction of a threat, and you'll be lucky in most cases to get off more than one or two shots on a charging bear.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?p=6584676#post6584676

     
    Last edited: Mar 7, 2018
  4. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    worth watching all the way through then thinking carefully,
    https://www.concealedcarryuniversit...d-t2?cf_uvid=3eee8beb3826def12fb6ba51052e0ce6



    personally I've found a 10 mm works on deer and hogs,one shot kills are common.
    but the 44 mag works noticeably better,(quicker kills)
    (and I consistently shoot tighter groups)

    yes I'M WELL AWARE THAT MOST PEOPLE CAN,T HIT CRAP WITH A 44 MAG REVOLVER!
    (Ive used 44 mag revolvers for 5 decades,
    but all of them , Ive owned have 8.375" -10" barrels,
    making concealed carry a challenge)
    keep in mind these were selected for hunting,
    where the need of making a 120 yard shot was a strong
    possibility,
    while the need for making anything over 30 yard shots,
    with a defensive handgun would be rather rare in my opinion.

    one reason the 9mm para, and 38 spc are so popular is that recoil is negligible,
    and most people with minimal practice can shoot those reasonably accurately and consistently.
    personally I don,t subscribe to the concept of smothering the target with a hail storm of bullets,
    Id rather have , made a choice of a limited shot capacity and considerably more power.
    but I do realize most people think a larger magazine capacity of a semi auto like a glock,
    with 17 shots is the better defensive option over a 6 shot magnum revolver,
    every choice is a personal compromise, and I'm fully aware higher capacity semi-autos are the popular option, and yeah, I carry a glock #20 10 mm most of the time.
    for over a decade I carried a 10 shot CZ 45 acp, and would not feel in the least bit compromised if I was required to carry a 10 mm or 45 acp CZ.or 1006/4506 S&W
    If I could find a reasonably priced 5" 629 44 mag,
    Id carry that, in preference over the glock,
    but a 10 mm glock costs about 1/2 of what a 5" 629 44 mag, revolver sells for locally.

    629 S&W 44 mag
    [​IMG]
    S&W 1006 10mm
    [​IMG]

    EAA/CZ 45 acp

    [​IMG]

    Glock 10 mm
    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Sep 17, 2018
  5. rlphvac

    rlphvac reliable source of info

    Grumpy I believe some of the FBI article but not all of it . They did not go to 9mm to reduce cost or save wear now to reduce recoil I believe some of the new shooters cant pass with the bigger recoil guns
     
  6. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    having used a 9mm and a 10mm pistol too hunt hogs on occasion,
    all I can state, after seeing the difference, in the internal damage and penetration,
    is that I personally think you would be an IDIOT, if you select to use a 9mm vs a 10mm,
    if your life depends on the results youll see,
    in stopping someone intending to kill you and all you had was a pistol to defend yourself.
    yeah, the 10mm penetrates better and produces a noticeably larger area of damage.
    the 10 mm has potentially about 40%-to- 50% more penetration and impact energy
    yes shot placement is far more important than power, but I darn sure see a marked improvement in the results I've seen in the hogs I've shot with a 10 mm.

    a couple good hits from a 10 mm is very lethal, similar hits with a typical 9mm may be just as lethal but your generally in for at least some tracking and in dense brush that difference in the reaction and distance traveled, is noticeable.

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-handgun-for-hunting-hogs-deer-elk.1864/

    http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=10 mm&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Source=

    http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=9 mm&Weight=All&type=Handgun&Order=Powder&Source=

    http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=303_301
    http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_301&product_id=591

    http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/category&path=303_371

    http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_371&product_id=495
     
    Last edited: Aug 12, 2018

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