Looking For A Decent Cartridge And Rifle Combo In A Deer/elk Rifle

[Grumpy]

Id point out right up front, that we all, have preferences based on our personal experience's
but there are basic standards ,we all need to judge our choices by,
in reliability, carry weight, fit, function, consistent ,repeatable accuracy,
and physical laws that govern getting consistent results.
having a decent amount of power (energy and penetration)
and a reasonably flat trajectory are benefits ,
but the area you hunt and the game hunted may not require you to maximize either characteristic.
understand there's a huge difference between what might prove lethal in skilled hands,
with perfect shot placement,
and what works almost every time with a decent shot made by your average hunter.
most of these discussions are rather pointless as its the skill of the user and his knowledge ,and acceptance of,
of each rifles accuracy and range limitations, and the projectile selected,
rather than the cartridge that makes or breaks the combos effective use!
check the used gun rack at many gun-shops,
there are occasionally bargains to be had in ,
older high quality rifles,
that spent far more time in a gun safe,
than out hunting.
I get asked rather frequently what my choices in rifles and cartridges are,
and while my choice may not match yours ,
there are some basic guide lines to use!
we all have preferences in cartridges we have used successfully,
its hard to ignore physics and there are some limits to what will work,
but experience and the skill, knowledge and experience .
of the person wielding the firearm had a huge effect on the likely results.
you can certainly use something that's not even close to ideal,
and you'll get good results if you have the skill's, and experience to compensate,
for your rifles lack of range or accuracy or penetration,
and you use those skills to compensate by getting in close to shoot.
select the area you hunt ,shorten the average ranges you shoot at,
and ,the game you choose should obviously have a big effect on the best cartridge/bullet and rifle choice,
and many people are far more concerned with recoil levels than you might imagine.
its been my experience that shots taken , or even the opportunity, to take a shot at game,
at over 300 yards are rather rare.
cartridges like a 45/70 or 444 marlin certainly have the required power and penetration at under 150 yards but rapidly loose the more ideal, flat trajectory much past that range,
cartridges like a 243 or 257 Roberts certainly shoot flat,
but past about 200 yards they are a bit low on power/penetration,
compared to other choices in common or at least available cartridges like a, 154 grain in a 280 rem,150 grain 270 win,
165 grain in a 30/06, or 308 win, or a 338/06 with a 200 grain bullet.
action type is generally based on your experience and personal preferences,
but most people prefer bolt actions, lever actions, for reliable and consistent, function,
with semi auto and pump actions and single shots ,
being a bit less popular but just as effective in skilled hands.
Id strongly suggest you select a cartridge/rifle combo that provides at least 2500-2600 fps at the muzzle and at least a 150 grain bullet weight minimum in a decent cartridge,
and anything over 250 grains in projectile weight seems a bit of over/kill.
in a rifle combo in a deer/elk rifle,
and ideally in a rifle that weights less than 9 lbs with a scope mounted.
the smallest bore diameter, Id suggest would be 6.5 mm,
(and yeah a friend of mine uses a 257 roberts and 100 grain bullets to kill elk, but he won't consider taking a shot over 200 yards)
and I don't think you need anything over .358 to get the job done reliably, but several guys I know hunt with marlin 45/70 rifles.
for ease of access to ammo or reloading component availability,
easy reloading, and decent power at lower cost,
Id suggest a cartridge based on the 30/06 case ,
examples,
(but your certainly not limited too..)
270 win,
280 rem,
30/06,
338/06,
35 whelen, and selecting bullets with a minimum of a
,240 sectional density,
and above 250 in sectional density being preferred
theres nothing in north America a consistently accurate shot,
in the hands of a good experienced hunter,
using something along those guide lines can't reliably kill,
with a single precisely placed shot using high quality bullets.
and yeah I personally prefer the Weatherby, tikka, sako, Browning and Mauser
actions

https://www.chuckhawks.com/sd_beginners.htm#:~:text=It's calculated as follows: Sectional Density = (bullet,must increase accordingly to achieve the same penetration.

https://www.vcalc.com/equation/?uuid=951b9e0f-4057-11e3-83ad-bc764e049c3d

https://www.hornady.com/team-hornady/ballistic-calculators/#!/
I think many people would be rather amazed to find a cartridge like a 6.5mm 147 grain bullet
pushed from something like a 6.5mm Swedish Mauser,or a 150 grain bullet from a 270 win,
(both combo's known for flat trajectory)
are not all that much flatter in trajectory ,
than a 225 grain bullet fired from a 35 whelen,
over the first 300 yards where most game is taken,
if all three rifles have a 200 yard zero

what are your thoughts on the ideal cartridge and rifle combo.
what action type and scope would you consider ideal.

related videos

personally I prefer the 340 wby and 375 H&H over all the other cartridges
,that I've used with complete confidence, for the past 5 decades
I have used, those two cartridges for 5 decades, and I'm very pleased with the results,
but the cost of the magnum length actions , and use of either Weatherby mark V,
or sako actions and recoil levels, and weight of the rifles chambered in those cartridges , and the increased cost of related ammo, are reasons most people won't be purchasing similar rifles,
personally I don't feel the few extra few ounces of weight, marginally longer action length, or obviously increased recoil are too high a price to pay for the very effective results,
that pushing a 250-300 grain .338-375 caliber projectile have, as I have complete confidence in the results I've seen., which in my opinion justifies the minor "problems" many people seem to have with those choices.
to me , personal confidence in what I carry ,
and the results I've seen makes the other factors trivial at best.
and yes I'm very aware that I could more than likely have used a 35 whelen and had very similar results,
no you certainly do not NEED that extra power and penetration potential,
as thousands of elk are killed every year with 270 win and 30/06 power level rifles,
but it certainly does not hurt either.
But Ill stick with the 338 win, 340 wby , 35 whelen and 375 H&H over all the other cartridges

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...splitting-hairs-on-cartridge-selection.16404/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/

 

[Grumpy]

I was talking to a buddy about recent rifle purchases and he stated he purchased a BROWNING BLR lever action in 30/06 from an estate,
he found at a local yard sale, that he thinks was only recently purchased, before the owner passed, for only $700,
this is easily a $1000 plus rifle as it came with scope and rings and sling, and a cheap padded case.
and it appeared to have only been sighted in if that,
by the statement's made by the previous owners widow,
who threw in two boxes of 165 grain federal cartridges with only 24 intact cartridges and 16 empty cases,
she claimed it was a birthday present she bought for he husband, about 16 years ago,
that never got to be used on a single hunt, so yeah there are occasional bargains to be found,
you could use something like that, high quality BROWNING BLR lever action,
for the rest of your life and never need anything else, with zero regrets.
the rifle looked to be new and certainly in excellent condition.
I asked if he might want to make a quick extra $75-$100,
as I could see where I could get about $800, from my wife... but he just laughed.
similar to this picture I found posted else ware

 

[Grumpy]

 

[Grumpy]

a 50 plus year mental and physical journey,
into practical experience in finding the best practical rifle and caliber for the game and areas I hunt,
I started out as many of my friends did with a used 30/06 mil surplus 1917 bolt action,
this was overly long and heavy, for my taste, but worked flawlessly, with 200 grain handloads

the guys who were my mentors were all old geezers in their 50s-60s and I was only20,
at the time but Id read everything I could find for years about hunting, larger game.
I had been invited to go along on an out of state mule deer and elk hunt in 1968, in Colorado!
most of the areas I saw or hunted in looked similar to these pictures

several of my mentors had slide action 30/06 Remington ,model 760 rifles,
(and many later swapped to 7600 remington rifles in 35 whelen chambering)

yes, I have a 7600 35 whelen, that I purchased as a camp back-up gun,
a rifle thats been in constant use , when guys in elk camp,
have issues like fogged scopes and loose mounts, and don,t bring a back-up
and that rifles use has resulted in 4 people purchasing a similar rifle after using it...
.Im sure it would be even more if the 35 whelen/7600 pump guns were currently easy to find now ,
as they seem to have been discontinued

btw \54 grains of ww748 under a speer 250 grain, is lethal on elk
(which along with the BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win has become almost standard in the group(as their sons have now become the old geezers,
I still hunt with)
and almost every one of these guys , at that time,
swore that was close to ideal when loaded with a 220 grain Remington peters cartridge,
most of these guys had decades of experience , and were much more successful on average than most hunters.
but I doubt if any had every had to shoot elk at over 120 yards in several decades of hunting,
a couple of the guys who had a bit more cash, were enamored or smitten with the BROWNING BLR in caliber 358 win.
a group of about 6-8 of these guys had started a loose social club based on the yearly hunt they had together ,
where they drove as a group out to Colorado in two or three pick-up trucks each year to spend the 10 day elk season,
out in Colorado, camping out and having what they all considered to be a nearly mandatory obligation to hunt elk.

I was instructed , in the fine points of elk hunting, by this group of geezers, that to be successful,
you simply sight in, off the bench at 100 yards, put the scope cross hair centered ,
(at 100 yards off the bench) on the yellow dot,
and have all the shots print over the smaller red dot, and you should consistently be practiced , with your rifle of choice,
until hitting a 3" dot , at 100 yards shooting off hand or sitting was the goal.

my first elk was hit almost exactly where Id intended, but remember I had very little or no field experience at the time,
that first elk, even if well hit, well... it ran off 40 yards before falling, thus I was not impressed with my rifle,
and I had almost exactly the same result about 2 years later, so I decided to do extensive research,
and I purchased a weatherby 340,(which the local gun-shop owner swore was the best elk rifle made anyplace!)
(I was warned that ammo cost a lot of money and the rifle was very expensive, heavy and recoil abusive) but
I found I had zero issues with the recoil, and accuracy was consistently impressive.
my first 340 wby has a fancy wood stock, which I soon replaced with a fiberglass version, as soon as those were an option.

I found the 340 weatherby was about ideal except for the length and weight,
and about a few years later I saw an add for a sako 375 H&H carbine,
looking up the ballistics I found the 375 H&H loaded with a 270 grain bullet and my 340 wby loaded with the 250 grain bullets ID been using, had similar
ballistics, I ordered one, and found it to be very effective, but it had a two piece wood stock that I had to modify and re-bed to get it to shoot consistently small groups

both those rifles shoot a consistent 3 shot 100 yard bench rest group under 1.25"
I've tried a dozen other rifles over the decades but I keep gong back to the 340 and 375 H&H
the only other contender I recently had good results with was a BROWNING BLR in caliber 450 marlin
(keep in mind the area I hunt, where getting a shot over 200 yards is about as likely as my wife approving of me getting a 19 year old mistress.
yeah the magazines all seem to be pushing the 6.5 creedmore and the 28 nosler,
but the older guys I know want more projectile mass , and I have rarely seen game out past 200 yards.

now I'm sure someone will read this and think, this guys sure stating a MAGNUM<
cartridge has a significant advantage over the standard 30 caliber ,
in lethality, but let me repeat, all the choices in the rifles I used, were lethal with a single well placed shot,
its bullet design and consistently accurate shot placement,
and a knowledge of the games anatomy,
not the use of super high velocity, or larger caliber bullets that make
the difference, even my 30/06 , with a standard 190-200 grain bullet,
was 100% lethal with one shot, the big difference was in the obvious, and the immediate reaction,
of the game on bullet impact! the difference in my experience was noticeable and impressive.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ange-calibers-for-elk-are-not-mandatory.1275/


you certainly don't need the range, flat trajectory or power these cartridges provide ,
in 95% of the places you'll hunt, but its nice to have the options they provide at times

 

[Grumpy]

youll almost never see an opportunity for a similar shot out in the open, like these pictures, which were probably taken in a national park or some non-hunting area, as always shot placement is critical, but you can't ignore physics, larger heavier bullets , in the 30-45 caliber range at reasonably high velocity are proven to be very effective, personally I like the 338-375 calibers as many of the cartridge options tend to find a balance between useful power and flatter trajectory,
keep in mind the terrain you'll hunt, if its thick timber , and narrow canyons ,you'll rarely see game past 150-200 yards

The Best Elk Hunting Calibers of 2024

In this review, hunting and shooting expert Ron Spomer gives his insight and experience on the best calibers for elk hunting.

www.outdoorlife.com

https://www.hornady.com/ammunition/rifle/300-win-mag-200-gr-eld-x-precision-hunter#!/
you can't really have many issues with H4831 or IMR 4831 but I prefer the 150 grain speer bullets in a 270 win.
I have a BAR in both 270 win and 300 win mag,
btw Ive also used a speer 200 grain bullet over a stiff load of H4831 in a browning BAR, for mule deer,
with a 215 federal primer, used on mule deer, it no more or less lethal, and it kicks a bit harder but , I'll point out its also been a consistently accurate combo!
most of these discussions are rather pointless as its the skill of the user and his knowledge ,and acceptance of,
of each rifles accuracy and range limitations, and the projectile selected,
rather than the cartridge that makes or breaks the combos effective use!
the one attribute it does seem to have is its use
(200 grain bullet/300 win mag/ BAR) irks my hunting buddies,
if I use it on mule deer, but not so much on elk,
I find it amusing, and a bit confusing, in that I don't really understand why my choice in rifle or handload combos,
can in any way effect them. but if you lack a reason to start a heated and pointless conversation, tell the guy next to you have a 300 win mag in a bar you intend to use on mule deer hunts..... its always resulted in a pointless and sometimes mildly heated discussion... I don't really know why, it works well, and if you place shots in the lower,. heart/lungs its been very consistent/lethal and does not destroy any more meat than the 270 150 grain combo does in my experience.

 

[Grumpy]

if I was asked to pick the two best elk hunting cartridges,
it a very easy choice
, the 340 weatherby and 375 H&H easily fill that nitch
in the list of cartridges best suited to that usage,

especially if the heavier bullet weights are used,
the 225-250 weight 338 projectiles in the 340wby
and the 270-300 grain weight 375 projectiles work flawlessly,
if the marksman uses them correctly, and understands the obvious limitations,
mostly dictated by range and anatomy and impact velocity