magnets

Discussion in 'Oil and Lube Systems' started by grumpyvette, Sep 18, 2008.

  1. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    heres an old post

    "Any source for the magnets Grumpy? what do you use? "
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.a ... SH&cat=167
    magnets are ceramic and glass hard, don,t try to drill or grind them, as they can shatter
    or
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/samarium-cobalt-discs/
    [​IMG]
    proper magnets trap metallic debris
    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Model# SMCO-D8
    Samarium Cobalt Magnets 3/4 in x 1/4 in Disc
    Suitable for high temperature applications
    or
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/samarium-cobalt-discs/

    Wholesale Price Range:
    $2.99
    High Temp Samarium SmCo Cobalt Magnet Discs
    572°F Maximum Operating Temperatu
    re
    Ive used these for years, the object of using high strength magnets in any engine is to trap metallic debris and broken valve train component parts bits of worn cam lobes ETC. before they circulate with the oil and cause excessive wear and get embedded in bearings or bust the oil pump gears.
    the combination of MAGNETS and a few shrapnel screens to limit debris reaching the oil pump from the lifter gallery can be very helpful in limiting damage to bearings and the oil pump.

    http://www.magneticdrainplugs.com/
    READ THIS THREAD ALSO
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/valve-train-shrapnel-screens.1458/#post-22845

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.a ... SH&cat=167

    [​IMG]



    these are NOT REFRIGERATOR MAGNETS "#0001" can pick up a SBC cylinder head, and you wont believe the amount of crud they remove from your oil and prevent from reaching the bearings

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/break-in-oil.1191/#post-7369

    OIL FILTER MAGNETS THAT SURROUND THE OIL FILTER, WON,T HURT BUT REMEMBER THEY CAN ONLY TRAP DEBRIS AFTER THE OILS BEEN THRU THE OIL PUMP GEARS,
    THUS OIL PAN AND LIFTER GALLERY MAGNETS, OIL PUMP PRE SCREENS DO MORE TO PREVENT DEBRIS FROM ENTERING THE OIL PUMP

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/FTM-RA365/
    [​IMG]
    THIS is a good example of what happens to bearings if the oil passages are allowed to push small metallic debris, from wear like rockers,valve tips,cam and lifter wear thru the engine, use of a few small magnets, and shrapnel screens helps reduce or eliminate this

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    BE AWARE magnets heat tolerance differs so ask for and pay attention to the heat limitations, a MINIMUM of 300F for any magnet expected to be used bathed in hot engine oil would be smart
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    heres whats left of a failed roller lifter roller wheel, Ive seen several similar failures , roller lifter life and valve train component expectancy tends to be rather short once spring pressures exceed about 500 psi and lifter exceed about .700 with that failing the cam lobe was nearly instantly destroyed, without several magnets and a shrapnel screen trapping most of the debris damage would be even worse to the bearings that what it was as easily 90% plus of the crap was trapped by magnets and never entered the oil pump, if only a single one of those hardened roller bearings gets sucked into an oil pump the norma/ result is a seized or busted oil pump and almost instant loss of oil pressure

    © 2003 ForceField
    Email us
    toll free (877)944-6247 or (970)484-7257
    Also, you can visit us at our retail store in Fort Collins, Colorado, USA at 614 South Mason Street!
    Ive been installing 4 of these lately in the corners of the oil pan sump,nothing magnetic (metallic dust from engine wear, assorted trash,etc.)can get past them, I also sometimes install one near the rear oil drain in each head to collect broken valve train shrapnel in case of a failure to limit damage on race engines. btw if you don't want to install them inside the sump you can J&B weld them to the outside of the oil pan permanently or just place them there if you want them removable,TRUST ME THEY WON,T FALL OFF ON THEIR OWN attached to the steel oil pan sump
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    you can expect things like this if its allowed to continue
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    heres a good example of why keeping small metallic debris like valve locks and rocker arm bearing parts out of the oil pump gears is a good idea, shrapnel screens and magnets tend to reduce that from occurring
    OTHER THAN A GOOD OIL FILTER,
    (something like an extra length WIX, purolator)

    [​IMG]
    NAPA Gold filter
    AND POSSIBLY A LARGE MAGNET,
    http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=1_13&products_id=1141
    [​IMG]
    ADDED TO THE BOTTOM OF THAT OIL FILTER, to help trap metallic trash, in that filter,
    YOU SHOULD NOT NEED ANYTHING ELSE.
    now I generally swap in a quart of marvel mystery oil for one quart of the total volume in the oil pan,
    but its not required
    [​IMG]
    failure to maintain a correctly functioning lubrication system,maintain, valve train control, provide consistent cooling and an ignition advance curve and to stay out of detonation can result in expensive lessons in engine repair

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    if you use a magnetic drain plug, this is fairly normal trash after several thousand miles running time

    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    if you use a magnetic drain plug, this is a fairly good indication of major problems with the engine after several thousand miles running time



    keep in mind ALL THAT CRAP PASSED THRU AND PUT WEAR ON THE OIL PUMP FIRST! placing the MUCH STRONGER MAGNETS IN THE SUMP HELPS TOO OR PREVENTS THAT
    "so do you just stick it in the inside corners of the pan and it stays put?"
    yes you can do it that way on STEEL OIL PANS, and trust me, youll see why they don,t come lose real quickly

    "or do you attach it some other way as well? "

    personally I place them in the corners and cover them with a thin coat of J&B weld to make wiping off the accumulated metallic dust easier when I pull the oil pan, but many guys J&B weld them on the outside of the pans sump,the only way your going to get the metallic dust out is to pull and clean the pan once in a while, because once the crud's stuck to the magnets its there almost permanently, but it won,t come lose and get back into the oil flow

    "If you install it on the outside of the pan how do you get the stuff out? maybe just slide the magnet to the drain hole so it comes out? "

    you could do that more than likely if you only used one magnet but with several I think the steel oil pan itself might remain somewhat magnetic even after the magnets themselves were removed, as long as its not being carried thru the engine by the oil they are doing their job

    btw, add a few magnets to the oil pan and drain back area in your engine, the trap and hold metallic dust that comes from wear and increase engine life span by preventing that crap embedding in the bearings

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH


    these are even more tolerant of temp swings and retain strength at even higher engine oil temps plus they are smaller and easier to use

    The SH material in the D66SH magnets, means that the magnets can be heated to 300° F without any loss of magnetic strength, unlike standard neodymium magnets that begin to lose strength at 175° F. Suitable for many high temperature applications.


    the problem with that magnet on the oil filter,that most guys have seen and many guys use, like this....

    http://www.shopfiltermag.com/

    READ THRU THIS THREAD AND SUB LINKS
    viewtopic.php?f=51&t=2919&p=7625#p7625

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...h-the-oil-when-a-cam-failed.11542/#post-53323


    RELATED INFO

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=3834&p=10199&hilit=trash+pump#p10199

    is that anything that makes it into the oil filter has already traveled thru the oil pump gears,if for example a valve keeper or roller bearings fro your rockers get into those gears they can and frequently do cause massive internal oil pump damage or a busted pump and theres also some minute chance of it bye-passing the filter, yes its a big improvement over no magnets but its not a complete potential barrier to metallic crud in the oil passages
    [​IMG]
    BUYING A TOOL and DOING SOME PERSONAL LOOKING AT THE INTERNAL PARTS HELPS
    [​IMG]
    you might be amazed at what youll see with a tool that allows a close visual inspection of a filters internal components rather than makes un-informed random guesses.
    actually knowing what your dealing with is helpful,reading some links and doing research is also much more likely to produce informed answers than engaging in a (IS TOO! VS IS NOT! ) style discussion with someone else whos equally un-informed
    [​IMG]
    its basically a heavy duty can opener , or an oil filter cutter , is designed to make it easy to internally inspect oil filters, by allowing you to remove the filter element , from inside the surrounding (CAN) for close visual inspection.
    have you seen this

    [​IMG]
    related info

    viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2727&p=7078&hilit=shrapnel%E2%80%A6#p7078

    viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1458&p=3265&hilit=shrapnel%E2%80%A6#p3265
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Oct 15, 2016
  2. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    [​IMG]
    proper magnets trap metallic debris
    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/
    [​IMG]

    Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
    magnets are ceramic and glass hard, don,t try to drill or grind them, as they can shatter

    AN EXCELLENT example of why a good filter and several magnets
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66-N52

    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-magnets-dia-1-2x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608f-temperature/

    can be a huge asset and why high rates of quality oil flow , checking your clearances,useing a good MOLY assembly lube are necessary, to prevent this
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 2, 2016
  3. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    if your concerned about magnets tending to trap metallic trash in the oil passages ,just place magnets near the rear head drain holes in the heads and in the corners of the oil pan sump, but after doing the magnet deal for years and refreshing blocks after using them and rodding out oil passages after years of use, I,M not a bit concerned with placing one in the lifter gallery front and rear areas, as they trap shrapnel, like bits of valve keepers, and needle bearings from roller rockers, if the valve train self destructs and have never posed a problem, you will be amazed at the accumulated metallic crud these magnets trap and prevent from getting back into the oil circulating thru your engine
    [​IMG]
    proper magnets trap metallic debris

    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/

    or
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/samarium-cobalt-discs/
    [​IMG]
    if you don,t think a proper magnet can trap/hold and prevent metalic debriss from getting into the oil pump and bearings , look at this picture of an oil pan magnet I found posted
    [​IMG]
    Model# SMCO-D8
    Samarium Cobalt Magnets 3/4 in x 1/4 in Disc
    Suitable for high temperature applications

    Wholesale Price Range:
    $2.99


    [​IMG]
    BE AWARE magnets heat tolerance differs so ask for and pay attention to the heat limitations, a MINIMUM of 300F for any magnet expected to be used bathed in hot engine oil would be smart

    I USE THESE IN ALL MY ENGINE BUILDS

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH
    [​IMG]
    or
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/samarium-cobalt-discs/

    "If you are looking for a powerful disc magnet to put in your oil pan or attach to an oil filter, this is the magnet you need. Our D82SH magnets are made with grade N38SH (SH = Super High Temperature) material. The SH material means that the magnets can be heated to 300° F without any loss of magnetic strength, unlike standard neodymium magnets that begin to lose strength at 175° F. Suitable for many high temperature applications."
    [​IMG]
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=RY046
    [​IMG]
    while I generally use stainless 6 or 8 mesh screens theres lots of options that will work just fine, just remember to keep the oil changed regularly or theres some potential for sludge to clog ANY size shrapnel screens
    http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/products/T ... 6T0350W36T
    http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/products/T ... 8S0280W36T
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-25026?seid=srese1&gclid=COOf2IODscgCFZKAaQodHWoF1Q


    IVE typically used these magnets in an engine, one in the rear oil drain on each cylinder head, one near each lifter gallery drain and 4 in the oil pan sump
    proper magnets trap metallic debris
    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Model# SMCO-D8
    Samarium Cobalt Magnets 3/4 in x 1/4 in Disc
    Suitable for high temperature applications


    [​IMG]

    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-9 ... toview=sku

    if you really want to keep tabs on engine condition, regular oil changes, having a magnet like this on the base of your oil filter and the smaller magnets to trap loose metallic debris in the engine before it can run thru the oil pump and bearings and using a cutting tool designed to allow inspection of your oil filters after every oil change will provide you with a great deal of information and potentially prevent or at least alert you to potential minor problems, long before they become expensive major problems

    [​IMG]

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    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog/index.p ... m-magnets/

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D61SH

    http://www.drainplugmagnets.com/home.html

    shrapnel screens in the lifter gallery and magnets in the lifter gallery , rear drain holes in the heads and oil pan sump, plus a decent screen on the oil pump pickup go a LONG WAY toward preventing metallic trash from reaching the oil pump

    [​IMG]

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=120&p=150#p150

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=1800&p=5526&hilit=pickups#p5526

    viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1458&p=3265&hilit=shrapnel#p3265

    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SUM-900510/

    these work great, for inspecting what reaches the filter,but if you,
    place several of these magnets (LINK BELOW) in your oil pan,and lifter gallery, it reduces significantly the metallic crud going thru the oil pump, thus reducing wear and preventing some issues like busted bits of valve train reaching the pumps gears

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH


    SHRAPNEL SCREENS,BEING EPOXIED INTO THE LIFTER GALLERY ,DRAINS ,USED ALONG WITH THE MAGNETS, ARE A BIG PLUS TO KEEPING CRAP OUT OF THE BEARINGS AND OIL PUMP



    viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2727&p=7078&hilit=+magnets#p7078

    viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1458&p=3265&hilit=shrapnel%E2%80%A6#p3265
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    one more potential possible source of metallic debris that could provide the cause of the cylinder bore damage
    now if your building an engine you GOING TO DO FREQUENT OIL CHANGES ON AND NEVER LET SLUDGE BUILD UP...you can probably limit that potential valve train shrapnel screens and magnets that trap small destructive crud
    [​IMG]

    viewtopic.php?f=51&t=1458&p=3265&hilit=screens#p3265

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D66SH
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 16, 2016
  4. Indycars

    Indycars Administrator Staff Member


    When putting magnets in a steel oil pan, is there any need to use something
    like JB Weld to hold them in place? Seems like they would stay on their
    own, they are magnets.

     
  5. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    the high temp magnets tend to stay right where they are placed, in a steel oil pan, but youll need J&B weld in an aluminum oil pan application,
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.a ... SH&cat=167
    [​IMG]
    http://www.jbweld.com/faqs/
    in my experience PROVIDED you use the ones designed to function in the heat range they can tolerate, just be aware you don,t want them too close to swinging oil baffle door flaps in a baffled oil pan as they have been known to hold those swinging gates open or closed if placed in the wrong areas,
    example,
    If this is an oil pan with this oil control baffle wall installed ,with steel oil control baffle doors, placing a magnet above these baffle doors is almost sure to prevent them from closing or placing one below is a sure way to keep them locked closed, thats one reason light weight ALUMINUM baffle doors are preferred,even in steel oil pans, the oil sloshing moves them, from open to closed as designed easily , limiting oil flow to movement in the direction desired, and magnets don,t tend to limit movement
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
     
  6. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    I was just looking thru a magazine where they showed the result of a roller lifter that had failed and the tiny needle bearings dropped into the oil pan and got sucked up into the oil pump, which tried to pump those hardened steel roller bearings thru the gears but the clearances quickly locked the oil pump up and sheared the oil pump drive instantly resulting in zero oil pressure. thats a great way to point out the need for several items in your engine build, I know from lots of personal experience,disassembling engines,and rebuilding them, as I generally install magnets in every engine I build and so do most of my friends now, that a half dozen magnets will trap and hold an amazing amount of loose debris from ever reaching the oil pump... cam lobes wear as do lifters and rings, rockers etc. and wear is not something everyone can avoid, even an engine that seems to look pristine with no obvious wear will still have metallic dust collect on the magnets over time!
    thats VERY COMMON, and even after you wash parts having a few magnets in the engine to trap random metallic crud helps.
    any bearing failures are frequently or at least partly the result of micro crud being washed loose as parts wear,by hot oil and being embedded in bearings.
    Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]


    SHOP CAREFULLY HEAT AFFECTS THE MAGNETS AND SOME DESIGNS ARE FAR MORE RESISTANT TO HEAT DAMAGE
    http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=254

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/blog.asp?p=t ... um-magnets
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    shrapnel screens
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]

    if you don,t think the trouble and expense of installing a few shrapnel screens and a dozen magnets is worth the time and effort consider how much metallic crap will circulate through the oil pump if they are not in place when something unpleasant happens
    magnets
    [​IMG]
    BE AWARE magnets heat tolerance differs so ask for and pay attention to the heat limitations, a MINIMUM of 300F for any magnet expected to be used bathed in hot engine oil would be smart

    I USE THESE IN ALL MY ENGINE BUILDS

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

    oil pump pre-sceens
    [​IMG]

    oil filter pre-screens
    [​IMG]
    and it would not hurt to put some thought into a non-bypass oil filter to potentially trap much of the finer debris

    viewtopic.php?f=54&t=10380
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 13, 2016
  7. grumpyvette

    grumpyvette Administrator Staff Member

    theres several routes that most guys use in that aluminum oil pan application,
    the most common is adding a magnetic oil pan plug and a large ring magnet to the base of the oil filter.

    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.a ... SH&cat=167
    http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?cPath=3_27&products_id=251 (prefered)
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH (acceptable)

    use these, magnets linked above, in the lifter gallery and oil drain areas in the cylinder heads, and if you want too, the corners of the oil pan, the normal Neodymium magnets loose strength when subjected to high heat the ones listed ,especially the cobalt magnets are designed to operate under high heat conditions, you certainly don,t want metallic crap that was formally functional Neodymium magnets, that have lost the magnetism loose in the engine, you don,t need a great deal of pull strength, what you need is a way to trap and hold micro fine metallic crud from wear issues and preventing, that crap from getting embedded in bearings or causing wear in moving valve train components
    http://www.magnet4less.com/product_info.php?products_id=254
    https://www.amazingmagnets.com/magnetgrades.aspx
    [​IMG]
    while I generally use stainless 6 or 8 mesh screens theres lots of options that will work just fine, just remember to keep the oil changed regularly or theres some potential for sludge to clog ANY size shrapnel screens
    http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/products/T ... 6T0350W36T
    http://www.twpinc.com/twpinc/products/T ... 8S0280W36T
    [​IMG]
    http://www.summitracing.com/parts/mor-25026?seid=srese1&gclid=COOf2IODscgCFZKAaQodHWoF1Q

    change the oil, and filter, and slap a big magnet on the base of the oil filter
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/n42-3od-x-1id-x-1-2-neodymium-rare-earth-ring-magnet/
    [​IMG]

    IVE typically used these magnets in an engine, one in the rear oil drain on each cylinder head, one near each lifter gallery drain and 4 in the oil pan sump
    proper magnets trap metallic debris

    Samarium Cobalt MAGNETS HELP
    http://www.magnet4sale.com/smco-disk-magnet-dia-1x1-4-samarium-cobalt-magnets-608-f-temperature/
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]



    SmCo Samarium Cobalt Disc Magnets
    http://www.magnet4less.com/
    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]
    Model# SMCO-D8
    Samarium Cobalt Magnets 3/4 in x 1/4 in Disc
    Suitable for high temperature applications


    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH

    "Any source for the magnets Grumpy? "
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.a ... SH&cat=167
    Ive used these for years, keep in mind youll want to run an OIL COOLER and a large baffled oil pan, youll ideally want to keep oil temps in the 200F-230F range preferably at the lower edge of that range MOST of the time
    http://www.magneticdrainplugs.com/
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D82SH


    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=D44SH&cat=167


    [​IMG]


    but keep in mind metallic debris will travel thru the oil pump gears BEFORE it ever enters the oil filter so the guys that rely on an oil filter magnet alone don,t fully appreciate the damage some small hard and nearly indestructible metallic crud like busted valve keepers or loose and broken roller rocker needle bearings can do to an engine.
    [​IMG]
    [​IMG]
    Shrapnel screens and magnets in the lifter gallery are a logical first line of defense.
    a decent quality epoxy, LIKE J&B WELD will hold a magnet to the outside surface of each corner of the aluminum oil pan the magnetic field will still trap metallic crud inside the oil pan, but this means the oil pan must be removed to clean the trapped crud, if its first prepped with 180 grit sand paper in the attachment location and degreased with acetone, just be very sure its thermal characteristics and limitations have at least a 300F minimum threshold
    http://www.kjmagnetics.com/specs.asp [​IMG]
    SHOP CAREFULLY HEAT AFFECTS THE MAGNETS AND SOME DESIGNS ARE FAR MORE RESISTANT TO HEAT DAMAGE
     
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 19, 2017
  8. 87vette81big

    87vette81big Guest

    Yeah I had better of order 2 Dozen of those Magnets Grumpy.
    As long as they don't fall off like you say they don't I will install them in my 455's.
    Olds 425 engine too.
     

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