making a 38 spc snubbie a bit more effective

[Grumpy]

my neighbors wife just purchased a S&W snubbie in 38 spc and he wants to know how to maximize its effectiveness,
well the bullet does 100% of the work ,
so obviously top quality ammos going to be a good investment here!
the very short barrel length reduces velocity ,and makes longer range accuracy difficult,
but these pocket pistols are designed for across the room confrontations at most!
now thats not to infer that in well practiced hands they can't be fairly effective at longer ranges , but in most cases distances over 30 yards are pushing the combos potential, rather too much unless you practice regularly and youll rarely find a real world threat at over 15 yards away under ordinary conditions as the average room or confrontation will mandate closer ranges, and according too the FBI statistics, 15 feet would be much more likely.
(and the 2" 38 spc snubbies are best used at ranges under 15 feet) if your going to be robbed or raped your attacker will generally be well within that distance, so a 38 snubbie makes sense as a gals personal defensive tool of choice, because under extreme stress they are nearly fool proof to operate correctly.
as with any weapon practice in its effective use will be critical, if you think you can pull it out only if its ever needed and be effective with it without prior practice your SADLY MISTAKEN and DOOMED to disappointment
your not going to get exceptional accuracy or velocity from a 38 snubbie, its primary virtue is easy concealment and light weight, but in skilled & practiced hands it is lethal, and not a toy by any definition, properly placed shots will be potentially lethal
http://www.hornady.com/store/38-Special-110-gr-Critical-Defense/

now in the old days(1970s-90s) the standard deal was to cast and load two of these 77 grain wad cutters (pictured below) in a 38 special case over 6 grains of BLUE DOT POWDER with a magnum primer , this produced a very effective load, that at 7-10 yard generally produced two projectile impacts about 2 inches apart , under the theory that producing double the number of large bloody leaks in any assailant was a good starting point in any confrontation, if you were limited to carrying a 38 spc snubbie.
but now lawyers would most likely say your some sadistic monster if you used other than factory ammo
having concealed carry legal cost insurance may be a huge financial life saver
https://www.nracarryguard.com/?ads_...MIrr63zpSe1wIVBo9pCh2s0gmTEAAYASAAEgIHu_D_BwE
ID suggest starting at 5 grains and working up .2 grains at a time to the 6 grain limit to be sure your snubbie handles the pressure and stopping if you see any sign its not happy,

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=38 Special&Weight=All&type=Handgun

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...tol-cartridge-stopping-power-potential.13710/

 

[enigma57]

Paul, we have had quite an increase in crime here over the past several years and my wife has finally decided to carry. So I took her to a gun shop and let her get a feel for several handguns. She ended up picking out a small framed Ruger double action .38 Special with a very short barrel. Open iron sights, no optics. I have taken her to the range a couple of times and shown her how to shoot and she has done very well. Each time out, we ran a 100 rounds through her pistol (about 70 for her and 30 for me).

I took Cheryl to the range this past weekend and she did well. She feels confident that she can pass the shooting portion of her concealed carry test now, so we scheduled our class and test for the 23rd. Its an all day affair. The Texas law on concealed carry is 85 pages long. We have to go over all that before we take the written portion of the test. The shooting portion of the test involves demonstrating safe handling of her weapon and firing a total of 50 rounds at targets placed at 3 distances. Since her weapon is a 5-shot revolver, she will have to reload 10 times as she is shooting to qualify. And I will use her revolver and do the same after she is done. Will need to buy something larger for myself (personal carry) when we can afford to do so.

I have a question regarding ammo. Cheryl has a .38 Special. Figured it was the largest calibre she would be comfortable shooting (she has small hands and a bad shoulder) and it would be better for her to have a smaller calibre weapon she could feel comfortable firing and placing rounds on target rather than something larger that she wasn't comfortable with and was not likely to practice with. I got her hydra-shock rounds for carry. Figured that would help with stopping power given the small calibre of her weapon.

But regarding practice ammo...... Do you have a recommendation there? Got her some 130 grain practice ammo, as she has 129 grain hydra-shocks she will load when she carries. First time I took her shooting, we put 100 rounds of American Eagle through her gun. Recoil was noticeable but not excessive and rounds were consistent and on target. But...... Out of that 100 rounds, we had 2 duds (misfires). I reloaded them and tried a second time, but neither would fire. Decided that American Eagle was not what we needed, as 2 duds out of 100 is unacceptable. Especially if you find yourself in a fire fight with a revolver that only holds 5 rounds as she might.

So this past weekend, I picked up a couple of boxes of Winchester practice ammo in the white box. 130 grain. No duds, but I could tell (less recoil) that they did not have quite the velocity as did the American Eagles and at 20 yards (her .38 Special has a really short barrel), I felt they were not as consistent and were beginning to drop an inch or so below the aiming point (bulls eye is 2-1/2" wide X 4" tall) but a 6" grouping will pass. Outer limits of oval bulls eye is about 6" wide X 8" tall. When we shoot to qualify, the bulls eye will be same size, but not white. Instead, it will be marked off in black lines on a dark green outline of a man (no contrast). Have not shot at one of these targets but I believe we will be OK. The Winchester rounds also had quite a bit of black blowback powder (primer?) that I had to clean off her weapon and my left hand (my hands are really too large for the size of Cheryl's gun frame).

Do you have a recommendation regarding .38 Special practice ammo? Need more muzzle velocity, more consistency and less black powder blowback.

Also...... I viewed your video of the .38 Special hydra-shock rounds fired from a snubnose revolver similar to hers. As I suspected, the snubnose in this calbre does not have sufficient muzzle velocity to allow the hydra-shocks to expand shortly after impact. Is there a better .38 Special ammo for carry?

Thanks,

Harry

 

[rlphvac]

You may not believe this but I have the same 38 I carried for a few years then I upgraded to a Ruger LCR 357 the 357 is the same size & close weight as the S&W 38 but the 357mag is a lot nicer to fire & not as much recoil as the 38 with comparable rounds nothing wrong with the 38 at all but the 357 will make bigger holes so when you choose your gun maybe look into the LCR & you can run the 38 ammo through it

 

[Grumpy]

good quality carry ammo gets expensive, but whats your life worth?

the truth is that your very unlikely to find any decent QUALITY, ammo ineffective with well placed hits,
but a knowledge of anatomy and familiarity with your weapon is mandatory,
as is constant repeat practice.
AND there is an advantage to the better quality defensive ammo

practice ammo need not be nearly that expensive ,and American eagle is the cheap stuff
and while the different ammo will impact on target differently,
at the ranges its likely to be used at thats usually not an issue.
as with all martial skills constant and frequent practice will insure a far higher level of both familiarity,
with the tool you use, and make it more likely too insure its effective use!

decent practice
http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...-38-special-158-grain-lrn-50-rounds?a=1584769

http://www.sportsmansguide.com/prod...rain-lead-wadcutter-match-50-rounds?a=1593141

carry
http://www.speer-ammo.com/products/short_brl.aspx

http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=303_338&product_id=701

 

[enigma57]

Thanks, Paul and Ralph for the tips. Really appreciate your input here. I will definitely make some changes with regard to ammo for both practice and carry. And as I noted in my earlier post...... No more American Eagle ammo. 2 misfires out of 100 rounds is unacceptable. And yes, we will look at .357 Magnum versions for Cheryl as well.

Cheryl's Ruger is the LCRx model with exposed hammer and the 3" barrel rather than 1.875" barrel as used on the LCR models with the concealed hammer......

http://arnzenarms.com/reviews/average-joe/ruger-lcrx-38-special-p-with-3-inch-barrel

I like the exposed hammer because I like to fire a revolver in single action mode when rapid fire is not a must. Actually, I can cycle it through single action fairly quickly and get a round off about as quickly as I acquire the target so that suits me just fine. And I like the sights (rear site is adjustable). The front sight is white and seems easy to use even in low light conditions. Is there a better front sight for low light conditions? Perhaps something such as the HI VIZ 'lite pipe' in green? Neither of us will be using a flashlight nor a laser sight (in the case of a home invasion at night, we do not want to give away our position before firing the first shot). I have very good night vision and I am considering adding lighting that will either silhouette or shine directly into the eyes of anyone who has just gotten through either our front or back door and placing the switch in our bedroom (still deciding on which way to go with that). The idea being to make them a good target when shooting from our bedroom doorway in an otherwise darkened house.

Cheryl wants to look at concealed hammer models for her carry weapon as she is concerned about the hammer hanging up on clothing or purse if she has to get it out quickly, but I am more concerned about the short barrel LCR concealed hammer models (both accuracy and muzzle velocity when using +P loads with hollow point wad cutter or hydra-shock rounds regarding whether they will expand properly on impact and of course, increased recoil with such a light handgun). If she goes with a concealed hammer model, I will probably use her present LCRx model if she does not decide to keep that one in her car.

Best regards,

Harry

 

[87vette81big]

I like S & W likewise Grumpy.
44 Mag still my Favorite but not easily concealed I know.
Just Dirt Harry...Clint Eastwood.
Was My Bud Bill's Favorite too.
Everywhere we went together the S&W 44 Mag was too.
.38 Snub Nose....Yes . Too.

 

[rlphvac]

Brian from my experience with factory ammo about 12-18 rounds out of my S&W 629 44 mag is enough as it starts to hurt my hand it is a 5 inch bbl. I have not started to make my own loads yet. I'm sure when I download some ammo it will be better how much so I don't know yet . I was going to get rid of it then I picked up a Ruger 96 lever action in 44 mag so I will be keeping them both now I only fired 2 rounds through the rifle because they are putting in a new gas line & rite of way down at the farm & I wont shoot while they are working even though they are working behind me

 

[Grumpy]

I would get her a revolver so there is no issue racking the slide.
Find a small frame .357 and use .38 specials in it. The recoil should be manageable and you can get some pretty good defense loads in .38

THAT is still good advise!
I had my wife try dozens of guns and she felt far more confident with a S&W laser equipped 38spc plus p , stainless revolver as here personal carry gun.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/...57768_757767_757751_ProductDisplayErrorView_Y

keep in mind the revolvers effectiveness is greatly effected by the ammo you use.
if you need it youll need it badly and your most likely be using it at very close ranges , so dependability is critical
even though ITs not the most effective caliber is potentially very effective under the conditions its likely to be used under and at the likely ranges (usually well under 10 -15 ft)
http://www.doubletapammo.net/index.php?route=product/product&path=126_139&product_id=656

and a good deal of frequently repeat practice helps build familiarity and confidence

 

[enigma57]

Hi, guys!

Its been a while since last I posted and I wanted to give you an update......

Took Cheryl to the range a couple more times and then we took the test for license to carry here in Texas. There were around 5 hours of classroom presentation followed by the written test.

Then we went to the indoor range and that was really interesting. The targets were different than the ones we used in practice. Targets were set at 3 different ranges during the test with 45 ft. being the farthest. Each person was required to fire 50 rounds in all. Wasn't able to use single action except for a few times when beginning, as the person giving the test had us load 3 rounds and fire them within 4 seconds when the command was given. Then 4 rounds and at times, 10 rounds on target.

All within a short enough period of time that we had to fire her revolver double action most of the time. The test was really meant for semi-autos and being as we had only her 5-shot revolver, there were some quick reloads. I found that I can reload her .38 as fast or faster by hand than the instructor can do it with a speed loader he had there, so we hand loaded it during qualification. Cheryl went with a group ahead of me since we both used her gun to qualify with. We both did well. I believe 170 is passing and 250 is a perfect score. Cheryl shot around 230 and I shot 247 (had 2 rounds hit inside the circle next to the bulls eye. The bulls eye was oval shaped and about 2-1/2" wide X 4" tall. 1st ring outside bulls eye was about 1-1/2" wide and I had 2 shots go in that area, centered up and down, one to right and 1 to left of bulls eye so had a 1 point deduction for each of those).

Don't feel bad about the score all things considered. Was not able to use my cane and had to deal with being a little wobbly on my feet, so acquiring the target with each shot was like shooting at a moving target only it was me that was moving. One thing that would help I believe would be if I could locate front and rear sights similar to the 3 dot versions I have seen on Glocks and H & Ks. Her .38 has a vertical white line on the front sight but no markings on the rear sight at all. In practice, I tried painting a small white vertical line on each side of the rear sight opening but that was worse than the plain unmarked metal so I scratched the paint off with my thumbnail and have left it as it was originally after that experiment.

I have a question regarding .38 special ammo for carry...... So far, we have tried several brands and types of ammo both for practice and carry. As we have 129 grain hydra-shock rounds for carry and have a few boxes of 130 grain Hornaday Critical Defense as well...... I have so far stayed with 130 grain ammo for practice.

My question is this...... I have looked at ballistics tests for 110 grain and for 158 grain ammo for .38 special as well. Both are +P loads. The 110 grain ammo has greater muzzle velocity and the hollow point may have a better chance of expanding on impact when fired from a short barrel, causing quite a bit of soft tissue damage. However, the 158 grain ammo will break bones whilst the lighter loads (110 grain and 130 grain) tend to deflect off bone whether they penetrate and damage soft tissue or not. So that would seem to be an advantage if you have only 5 rounds and need to put an attacker down quickly with good shot placement. Your thoughts?

Also...... Cheryl has tested and fired several handguns. With semi-autos, she has a problem with the slide generally. She is comfortable firing up to 9mm semi-ammo. Has better luck working a Glock 19 slide than smaller framed Glock 9mm (more to grasp) but its still an issue for her when it comes to strength. She test fired a small framed Sig Sauer 9mm that had a very easy slide action but it jammed quite a bit. So she will likely stay with a .38 revolver and I will probably go to a .45 for carry. Fired my youngest son's 1911 a couple of weeks ago and it was nice. Hadn't fired one in 50 years. Not too heavy and not too much recoil for this old man. With a .45 sem-auto, I am a bit concerned about magazine capacity, though. A 9mm Glock 19 will hold more rounds but then you could always carry 2 or 3 extra mags for a .45 if you need them, I reckon.

Fired an interesting revolver last weekend just for fun. Totally impractical for concealed carry due to size and weight and only holds 5 rounds but would definitely put down an attacker with a single round if you had good shot placement. It was a used Smith and Wesson 460XVR with a 10" barrel. A bit end heavy but I managed it OK. The guys at the gun shop said its supposed to come with a bi-pod that fastens to a rail beneath the barrel but that was missing. A bi-pod for a hand gun? Really? Sounds impractical to me. If I had one of these, I might make a fore grip that could be folded down and locked in place when firing. That would make for better balance, I think. Seems to pack quite a wallop but recoil didn't bother me. Just took a split second longer than Cheryl's little .38 to come back down where I could put target in sights again.

Best regards,

Harry

 

[Grumpy]

as to the 38 spc ammo I think Id go with the 158 grain ammo, if you remember the reason the FBI originally went to the 10mm, after the Miami shoot-out
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/1986_FBI_Miami_shootout
it was due to a LACK of penetration , when the criminal was hit repeatedly , (determined with the autopsy) that partially prompted, that change.
your not going to instantly put down anyone with a handgun unless major bones are broken or the spine or brain is hit, even a heart shot takes a several seconds to cause the victim to bleed out and loose consciousnesses, but if a projectile can,t pass completely through the target, you may not reach and destroy vital organs from some angles.
Id also point out that a confrontation between agents armed with handguns against a bank robber armed with a semi auto 223 rifle was flat out stupidity, the FBI had access to long guns but failed to have them in the agents hands as a primary weapon of choice , knowing that the potential for a confrontation existed.
the FBI soon changed to the 40 S&W when they found many of the female agents and a few male agents could not handle the recoil,
and they are now swapping to the 357 sig or 9mm para, as even the 40 S&W seems to have too much recoil
(seems like far too little practice and a bunch of wimps to me,
as even my wife has no trouble with a 357 mag revolver)
theres no way any easily concealed hand gun, can compete with a long gun in destructive power thus your at a disadvantage if so armed, compared to having a shotgun with slugs or a M1a or AR 15, rather than a 9mm or 38 spc.
the constant down grade in power and desire for increased magazine capacity is in my opinion clear evidence of a lack of ability to learn from past mistakes and too value political correctness over clearly known facts on effectiveness.
if your agents can,t hit vital organs, on an opponent,
they need a great deal more practice,
not more magazine capacity and
a spray and pray style
of gunfight response

while its a bit large for easy concealment I doubt theres a more effective combat handgun anyplace

https://us.glock.com/products/model/g40gen4mos

 

[enigma57]

That was my thinking as well, Paul. I will pick up some 158 grain ammo and see how it works in Cheryl's revolver. Did some research this evening......


Hornady .38 Special 158gr XTP ballistic gel test - (not +P) (0.52" full expansion, 18.25" penetration, 2" snubnose barrel)......

Federal .38 Special +P 158 gr High Velocity Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point 38G (G means Government/FBI load) all lead, not jacketed (0.559" full expansion, 19.375" penetration, 4" barrel)......

(No expansion, penetrated 24" gel plus two 1 gallon water jugs, 2" snubnose barrel)......

Buffalo Bore .38 Special 158 gr Semi-Wadcutter Hollow Point ballistic gel test - (not +P) (0.413" partial expansion, 19.00" penetration, 2" snubnose barrel)......

Box Info......

Buffalo Bore Standard Pressure Short Barrel

Low Flash HVY .38 SPL (non +P)

Item 20C-158 gr Soft Lead SWC-HC @ 850 fps

BBAC-20C/20 (on front of box with bar code)

---

Hydra-shock rounds fired through .38 Special with 2" (snubnose) barrel......

129 grain did not expand - over 22" penetration in gel test

110 grain did partially expand 3 out of 5 times - 17" penetration in gel test


Best regards,

Harry

 

[Grumpy]

As I'm sure you know shooting anyone becomes a very expensive legal problem in many cases even if your fully justified in the use of lethal force, so its an action to be avoided if possible! but given a choice of loosing one or more family members to a violent attack, vs defending yourself and needing a lawyer, youll generally take the its my family vs the scum bag question, and figure out the answer rather rapidly, and hopefully rapidly and effectively reduce the available home invasion or mugger personnel list effectively, and efficiently!
any hits directed to vital anatomy may not get an instant response but it will darn sure be lethal, so as many vital organs hit and destroyed as possible and doing it as rapidly as possible will require both a knowledge of anatomy and full knowledge and familiarity with the hand guns function through repeat constant and frequent practice.
If your using a 38 revolver, you'll certainly want to hit at least two vital organs and be well aware of the threats and or multiple threats, youll want to train with a quick and ACCURATELY PLACED,double tap on the target in vital areas , and not allow a potential adversary to close the distance under 15-20 ft at an absolute minimum, as a determined guy with a blade can cover 20 feet and deliver a fatal thrust before most people react too a eminent threat

http://www.livescience.com/37009-human-body.html

http://www.pistoleer.com/shooting-targets/b21/

 

[enigma57]

Thanks, Paul! Great info. Much appreciated.

I am going to work with Cheryl on weak hand shooting and then will go over shot placement with emphasis on aiming points for stop shots. From there, will do some tactical training with her as best I can. She is more mobile than I, as I must get around on a cane now.

In addition to revolvers for personal carry, will be looking at 12 ga. shotguns for home defense. I'm not a fan of pump action shotguns and am concerned about semi-autos jamming, so may look at picking up several inexpensive but dependable double barrel shotguns and stationing them in places around the house where we can easily lay our hands on them in case of a break-in. Still deciding which way to go with that. What is minimum legal barrel length now of days? I may want to cut them down for easier handling in confined spaces. Would like to maintain 6" to 8" grouping at 25 ft. distance with double 00 buck loads. Not concerned about penetration through outer walls. Have hardened exteriour walls and will be building safe room inside as well. Just want to put any intruders who make it into our home down quickly.

Best regards,

Harry

 

[Grumpy]

IF you need a home defense shotgun , Id suggest you get a benelli m1 new or used in good condition, add a mag extension to match barrel length,
and buy a case of federal , or some similar high velocity 00 buckshot 12 ga buckshot, youll die of old age long before a properly maintained and cleaned and lightly lubed ,benelli M1 with good factory ammo jams or miss feeds.
Ive had one for 24 years and never had a single issue other than a bruised shoulder if I run through more than about 50 shells in a single afternoon shooting skeet. yeah, skeet shells have less recoil and if anything was going to jam that gun the skeet loads would do it.
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ts-on-the-best-shotgun-for-home-defense.3909/

my benelli was imported by H&K and looks extremely similar to this picture below with the exception that my barrels a bit longer About 22"and the magazine tube length extends to the same length as the barrel

http://www.brownells.com/shotgun-pa...76348a&gdfms=9F1F7D146783400E88E34AC1139D1B27

http://www.midwestgunworks.com/page/mgwi/ctgy/benelli-m1-super-90-parts
http://www.midwestgunworks.com/mm5/...ode=benelli-m2-barrels&offset=0&view_perpage=

 

[enigma57]

Thanks, Paul! I'll check them out. Looks like a very high quality piece.

Best regards,

Harry