making a procharger engine need and have questions

[x infektid x]

OK here goes.
406 from Ohio crankshaft. forged everything and need a cam to make it all work ..
9.5 on comp 6 inch rods,dart 215 aluminum heads, and hydraulic rollers.
the first question is ring gap. its at .019 on the top and second is sat .015. ok for an sc or no?
second is in cam selection . first sc engine and no idea as to what it needs to run right.

its a daily driven car and looking for all that i can get (within reason for a daily driver)
mileage is ot may be an issue but not really. hp needs gas to work i do understand that . i work 5 min from home .
700r4 tranny and stock everything else on a 85 Monte Carlo(peg leg rear end. dont ask me why ,i dunno)

ideas on cam is what i am really looking for.
pro-charger told me the d1scis what they recommend at 8 psi without an intercooler and 10 psi with one and a recommend lobe separation of 112-114 ,but call cam maker to be sure about whats best
i told pro-charger i want or am lookin at about 600 hp. do i want to much or is that easy to do on forced induction.(i know it is but there are always trade offs)
oh yeah its a standard dart shp block if that help. if u need info let me know as i have all the stuff they sent to me on hand

 

[grumpyvette]

ID strongly suggest you call crane and crower for there input as a first step, and I can assure you your going to NEED to have a high strength posi rear differential with something like 3.73:1 rear gears, and a 3000 stall converter, and an inter-cooler (almost mandatory) if you intend to get well over 500 hp on pump gas with that compression ratio. you left out lots of required info, but if I assume a few things, yes you could easily get the 600 fly wheel hp
Id tell ohio crank its going to be super charged, and they will most likely recommend a top ring gap near .024 and a second ring gap similar

but a cam similar to these seems like it fits the requirements
https://www.procharger.com/catalogs/ProCharger_Corvette_catalog.pdf

heres what the factory 10 bolt rear differentials likely to look like in a few months with that engine and over 500 ft lbs of engine torque, if the tires get decent traction

http://www.superchevy.com/technical/eng ... ewall.html

 

[DorianL]

Kiss goodbye that 700-R4.

 

[grumpyvette]

good point, a 4l80E is about the best choice for that kind of torque if your looking for a over drive transmission
the 700r4 and 200r4 can be built much stronger than stock but the parts even better heat treated alloy parts just don,t have the mass or cross sectional area that the larger trans parts have so its never going to be as strong as the larger transmission design

 

[x infektid x]

700R4 Transmission - Level Three

This transmission comes with a high performance Superior intermediate billet servo that has 35% more holding power than a Corvette servo. It will give a firmer 1-2 and 2-3 shift. It also has a high performance Superior overdrive billet servo with 50% more holding power than the stock overdrive servo. This servo gives a firmer 3-4 shift. This 700R4 has 8 Red Eagle clutches and full thickness Kolene steels in the 3-4 clutch drum. Our 700R4 comes with the Mega Valve and an oversize low / reverse boost valve, these two valve produce higher pressure and firmer shifts. All of our high performance 700R4 transmissions come with a 10 or 13 vane high performance / high volume pump. We use an Alto Carbonite PowerBand with thicker hardened anchors that holds in second and overdrive. Also included in the price is a heavy-duty balanced stall converter with furnace brazed fins, a Sonnax carbon fiber clutch and needle bearing for added strength. This torque converter can be ordered with stall speeds of 1800, 2000, 2300, 2600 or 2800 RPM (#2). Some of the other features are a 30 spline input shaft, "The Beast" reaction shell, special Transgo separator plate if needed, elevated pressure regulator spring, extra wide sun gear bushing, extra wide rear stator support bushing, performance 1-2 accumulator spring, high output pump slide spring, special intermediate servo release check valve, Corvette governor if needed and a 29 element heavy-duty Borg Warner forward input sprag. Also included in this package deal is a throttle valve cable, dipstick and tube, and an automatic converter lock-up switch.


thats whats in the tranny now. if it blows it blows. ill go back to my tried and true 400 tranny. cam selection looks good to me. but in the event of i actually DONT go the sc route .will that cam still work? reason that i ask is it may be next year before i put the charger on it. money is tight here like a 400 pound chick in a size 4 dress! i just want to have it set up for when it does come around. i can take getting left at the stoplight for the time being . :lol:
there wil be a better rear end when that time comes. i do know about that .
will a 300 stall really be needed? i have never driven in rode in a sc car before and usually from what i know about hot rodding , a 3000 stall is border line for the streets. at least for me it is.
does it spool up faster or what? is thatthe need for the higher satll than a regulare hot rod car?
get into the power band faster i take it.. as u can tell i am not well versed in the world of sc cars but i want to be,and want to get it right . at least the second time around if not the first



heres the engine spec to get a better informed decision.

dart shp block http://www.summitracing.com/parts/DRT-31161111/
5140 350x3.750 crank
6 inch rods http://www.ohiocrank.com/st-stp_rods.html
147540 srp pistons(16.00 dish) http://www.summitracing.com/parts/SRP-147549/
cr0690-35 ts (total seal) rings and internal balancedhttp://www.summitracing.com/par ... 0690-35-1/
block deck height is 9.025
bore is 4.155
top ring gap is .019 second ring is .015
from ohiocrankshaft's web page its the block trhat has the new sticker by it. 406. http://www.ohiocrank.com/chev_sb_shortb.html


what procharger told me .
d1sc at 8 psi without the inter-cooler and 10 psi with the 3 core inter-cooler( not a big difference to me as i se it right now anyhow. a cam with a lobe sep of 112-114
with the inter-cooler its 680hp didnt say what it may be with out it
thats all the info that i have for the moment.. also going na is not out of the question right now either.

 

[grumpyvette]

yes the cam will still work rather well because of the rather high (at least for a supercharged application )compression level but youll still need a 2800-3000rpm stall converter and a decent posi rear differential

 

[Big_G]

Good cam selection...might even go next size up. I am at 625 rwhp with a 244/248/114* cam on a 383. Very good street manners. Even with the "built" 700r4, it won't last. Same for the differential. Detonation is the engine killer. Keep a good eye on the air/fuel ratio. No leaner than 12:1 under moderate to heavy boost. Good luck!

 

[DorianL]

Hm, I don't know much about the 700-R4 but I do know some about its sister the 200-4R.

I liked the 200-4R because of its good 1 - 2 rpm drop compared to the 700-R4 and the fact that is was a near drop in for the 350.

I built mine to withstand over 700 foot/lbs of torque... at least in theory. We will put to test.

Keeping the pressure up, temp down, snappy shifts and clearances tight and to spec, are critical for these things to live. That's 95% of most failures there and that is what this 700-R4 seems to be addressing. These would acieved by: shift kits, high pressure-fast pressure rise regulators, extra wide bands, large servos, deep oil pan and perfect clearances. Some of these are covered here.

The next level is the hardened parts. I put in a forged input shaft, billet forward drum and center support, chrome moly rings for my oil pump, hardened stator support, billet OD planetary (I exploded mine).

The next weak link is the torque converter. A quality converter will for supercharged applications will already put you back $700. (I blew mine up as well.)

Seems to me the level three lacks the hardened parts - their "drive package?" Also, with that kind of acceleration, I think a deep pan and pick up is necessary.

I think it will live for a while but might save you lots of $$$ later if you can spend a few more now.

My $0.02

 

[DorianL]

BTW, I dynoed mine at 640HP/650TQ. 400 CID, AFR heads and a D1SC at 7 PSI.

 

[x infektid x]

thnx for all of the info on this subject. looks like it will be next year when it all comes together given that drive train wise it will have to all be changed .

dorianl, what type of gas mileage are you getting with that set up of yours? you are in the hp/tq range that i would like to be in when i get my setup,setup.
the other guy said no leaner than 12.1 and i was thinking as at that ratio its a gas guzzler .
now i say that because i just went fuel injected route instead of messing around with carbs and i have learned a lot about a/f ratios and such but coming from that background its seems rich. or was he saying keep it around there because of my comp ratio ?
and again folks thanks for telling me what i need to know about it,always glad to hear from people that actually have it on thee cars they drive instead of the people that dont and cant make me make bad choices.

 

[Big_G]

thnx for all of the info on this subject. looks like it will be next year when it all comes together given that drive train wise it will have to all be changed .

dorianl, what type of gas mileage are you getting with that set up of yours? you are in the hp/tq range that i would like to be in when i get my setup,setup.
the other guy said no leaner than 12.1 and i was thinking as at that ratio its a gas guzzler .
now i say that because i just went fuel injected route instead of messing around with carbs and i have learned a lot about a/f ratios and such but coming from that background its seems rich. or was he saying keep it around there because of my comp ratio ?
and again folks thanks for telling me what i need to know about it,always glad to hear from people that actually have it on thee cars they drive instead of the people that dont and cant make me make bad choices.

What I said: "No leaner than 12:1 under moderate to heavy boost." You can set your cruise A/F ratio much leaner.(14-15:1)

 

[DorianL]

Indeed - I spend +90% OUT of boost. I get about 16 miles per gallon driving with a smile on my face - but not hysterical laughter... That's 10 miles to the gallon.

Bearing in mind the above, you can lean it out significantly on cruise and mild acceleration. However, with these power levels, on moderate to high boost, you do want to make sure that you are slightly richer than needed. Just that extra margin can save yer pistons.

I run water/methanol as well; I am paranoid.

Finally, I run AN-8 fuel lines with a big filter, an electric pump with a boost referenced pressure regulator.

The carb, a Holley 850, is also boost referenced.

One last element to consider, is the power steering. To fit the D1SC I had to drill and tap the block to get the PS pump out of the way + use a remote reservoir that I fabricated from an RV's.

 

[mathd]

Finally, I run AN-8 fuel lines with a big filter, an electric pump with a boost referenced pressure regulator.

I have a boost referenced regulator(Mallory Ignition 4309) but i am not referencing it to the intake(boost).
What is the positive if i use it? and if am referencing it, how do i set the fuel pressure?(with engine idling, engine stopped, how much psi"6.5"?). I just plugged the referencing port on mine, because i do not understand how to make it works correctly.

 

[DorianL]

Finally, I run AN-8 fuel lines with a big filter, an electric pump with a boost referenced pressure regulator.

I have a boost referenced regulator(Mallory Ignition 4309) but i am not referencing it to the intake(boost).
What is the positive if i use it? and if am referencing it, how do i set the fuel pressure?(with engine idling, engine stopped, how much psi"6.5"?). I just plugged the referencing port on mine, because i do not understand how to make it works correctly.

There is a fitting in the back of the carburetor bonnet. I run that to the regulator via an aluminum tube. It works very well. You can sorta see it below. (I set it at idle.)

I pegged my pressure at 4.5 I find it runs very well with that.

You MUST use a boost referenced pressure regulator! Basically the float bowls are vented under the bonnet - not to atmosphere.

As boost increases, air pressure builds pressing down on the fuel in the bowls. This pushes the floats up! This floats are prevented from descending and allowing more fuel in as the bowls empty: LEAN CONDITION!!!! BOOM!!!!!!!!!

Imagine fuel pressure at the carb is pegged at 4.5 PSI. Cruising is fine. Imagine getting on the gas and boost builds up to 7 PSI. As fuel pressure is not regulated, the 4.5 PSI at the carb inlet is not enough to overcome the 7 PSI holding the floats up. With a regulator 1:1, at 6 boost, fuel pressure will increase to 4.5 PSI + 7 PSI. The carb sees a net 4.5 PSI allowing all circuits to operate

This is what I use, BTW:
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/AEI-13204/

Are you sure those fittings are big enough at 3/8 NPT? 600+ ponies needs a lot of flow.

 

[mathd]

Oh, ok i understand better how it works now.
But i use a supercharger(boost is under the carb) and not procharged. i guess this does not apply to me(no boost pushing at the carb"float bowl").
And yeah, 3/8npt is somehow small, i went a little undersized when i made my fuel supply hardware selection. As the fuel tank lines where 3/8npt and i didnt want to take out the fuel tank/cell, so i crossed my finger with hope that it will be big enough.

 

[DorianL]

Yes, if you have a roots, or a draw through, this is not a worry.

Still you gotta be a bit careful with your carb. That also needs to be boost referenced. The carb can actually "see" vacuum under the throttle plates yet the manifold is seeing boost. ====> power valve is not released ====> Lean condition ====> Ka-BOOM!

 

[mathd]

Yes, if you have a roots, or a draw through, this is not a worry.

Still you gotta be a bit careful with your carb. That also needs to be boost referenced. The carb can actually "see" vacuum under the throttle plates yet the manifold is seeing boost. ====> power valve is not released ====> Lean condition ====> Ka-BOOM!

Yeah i know, i already refrenced the carb's powervalve to the intake signal .

Here are some picture of my progress so far(still lots of work to be done), i have about 60 miles on it right now.

Sorry for topic hijacking.

 

[DorianL]

Beautiful!!!!

Looks like at B&M 162. I had one of those for several years. I loved the super low-end grunt!!!! The whine was out of this world.

However that intake is extremely restrictive. If you have have anything but stock heads, you will out flow the babyblower.

When I switched over to the D1-SC, for the same boost measured at the manifold I gained around 140 ponies over the baby blower! The restrictive intake was leading to a high boost reading that the chambers were not seeing much of!

Consider this:

 

[Indycars]

mathd,

Hope you don't mind, but I thought your engine looked so nice it needed to be easier to see !

 

[grumpyvette]

DORIANL brings up an excellence point!
too many guys just buy parts that come in kits without doing the research required to find out if the combo of components is close to ideal, or just have the ability to be bolted onto the engine and function.
most (KITS) are designed not so much for max performance , but for ease of installation,in the most applications,and to provide, max clearances in the engine compartment,and usually contain a collection of the least expensive components available that will function,
little component testing and a good deal of price shopping and a great deal of cost cutting to bring in the component package under a low market driven price ceiling is common.
many guys like the convenience of buying a known combo of components that will provide a decent level of performance improvement, but very few stop and do the research to ask themselves if thats the best or even close to the best potential combo, in this case Ive built or worked on several super-charged engines and knew that the wieand single plane DORIANL pictured far out flowed some of his other options on intakes