mini-starters, and started related info

[grumpyvette]

IF YOU DON,T READ THE SUB LINKS YOU'LL MISS LOTS OF INFO,.....info that might cure your particular problem, now or later, know what your looking for and what your doing before throwing parts randomly at a problem
Chevy V8 starters come in several variations but the main things you need to know is the flywheel size (flexplates & flywheels are either 14in diameter with 168 teeth, OR, about 12 3/4in) with 153 teeth.) and if your block used the strait across or off set mount bolt pattern, its usually the 168 tooth size.,

http://static.summitracing.com/global/i ... tarter.pdf

many 168 tooth starters will have staggered mounting bolt holes like this.

most 153 tooth starters will have the holes in a straight line.

153 tooth = 12-3/4" diameter
168 tooth = 14" diameter

10496870 Starter, heavy-duty, remanufactured for 12 3/4” diameter flywheel/flexplate
1876552 Starter, heavy-duty for 14” diameter flywheel/flexplate
14097278 Bolt, starter mounting, long, for heavy-duty starter
WATCH THE VIDEO,s ON STARTER OPERATION

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bx3xniNw ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCCTL3Gb ... re=related

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1Vsx9Kl ... re=related

READ THRU THIS LINK IT MIGHT BE A VATS PROBLEM IF THE CAR WON<T START
viewtopic.php?f=36&t=520&p=645&hilit=vats+resistor#p645
IF IT SPINS BUT WON<T START READ THIS LINK AND SUB LINKS
viewtopic.php?f=32&t=1401&p=13764&hilit=terminals+cleaning+battery#p13764
IF YOUR GETTING ZERO FUEL PRESSURE READ THESE LINKS

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=33

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=635

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=1241
Description

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-dig ... 98674.html


Allows a single person to start or crank the engine from under the hood. Ideal for compression tests or for bumping engine onto TDC (top dead center) timing marks for valve, distributor or camshaft adjustment. Power tool-type trigger switch for regular use with medium currents. Most Specialty Tools products are available for in-store pickup...
as always start with the basics and verify the battery has 13 volts,then verify the starter works when you jump the solenoid connections manually and the engines getting fuel pressure and ignition spark at the plugs
bypass the ignition and security with a manual starter test switch (look thru the link) starter test switches normally cost well under $20 and youll find them useful in the tool box


http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ANM-CP7853/

these test switches normally cost under $20 and easily test starter function along with a multi meter youll use to test battery voltage etc.

lt1 starters look a bit different

read thru these
http://www.jegs.com/i/JEGS-Performance- ... Id=1359671

you can buy standard chevy starters at a decent price
http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-1304-chev ... mt200.aspx

If it has 2 sets of mounting holes, it can usually be used on either a 153 or 168 tooth flywheel/flexplate.
viewtopic.php?f=70&t=299

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1646&p=12717#p12717

http://www.tiltonracing.com/ins/98-095.pdf

http://www.circletrack.com/enginetech/c ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=32&t=816&p=1201&hilit=+starter#p1201

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://image.chevyhiperformance.com/f/8 ... t_07_z.jpg

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=676&p=937&hilit=+starter#p937

http://www.vetteweb.com/tech/vemp_0404_ ... index.html

http://www.novaresource.org/starter.htm

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=299&p=364&hilit=+starter#p364

http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=63&p=76&hilit=+starter#p76

NOTICE THE DUAL MOUNT HOLES

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PWM-9000&autoview=sku

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?part=PWM-9526&autoview=sku

There ARE BOTH OFFSET and inline bolt mount patterns to consider also (depends on blocks used)

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=SUM-820323-OS&N=700+115&autoview=sku

these guys have a good product

http://www.dbelectrical.com/Starter%20M ... %20Motors/

if your starter has both mount options you can move it closer in, if not youll need the correct starter, there's 153 and 168 tooth flywheel and flex plate diameters so you'll need to keep that in mind, the advantage of the better gear reduction starters is about 4:1 geared ratio so they are smaller lighter and many can be clocked or turned/ indexed, to access the max clearance to frame, headers, large oil pans,etc.

While OBVIOUSLY I’ve not used every brand or model available,
I’ve used several of each type over the years, Id also recommend the supported style

as I have seen more problems with the UN-supported starters , and you can use the mini-high torque starters on a street car, Ive had one on BOTH my 1985 and 1996 corvettes for years.... that being said, Id look into the guarantee of each brand and keep the shipping box ETC. as I know of several cases where mini-starters, and for that matter full size starters lasted under a week!, BTW your local area may have a shop that can build/sell you a quality mini starter for even less, and its always nice to have a local guy handy if you do have problems

heat shielding can be a huge help

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=THE-14150&N=700+-118668+115&autoview=sku

you might want to look thru this info below also

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=299

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=514

occasionally you'll find damaged flywheel ring gears,
naturally you'll need to use the correct replacement parts from the original manufacturer in most cases,

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=5155&p=14949&hilit=ring+gear#p14949
http://www.thefind.com/cars/info-flywheel-ring-gear

http://www.tciauto.com/Products/Flywheels/

RING GEARS ARE CHEAPER THAN FLY WHEELS AND IN MOST CASES REPLACEABLE COMPONENTS


(1) Pull trans

(2) Remove flywheel

(3) HEAT WITH A PROPANE TORCH, THEN Tap ring gear off

(4)CLEAN AND INSPECT RING GEAR MOUNT SURFACE AND CLEAN IF REQUIRED, Heat new ring gear with torch, OR by placing in oven, place fly wheel in cardboard box covered with DRY ICE
once both are at correct temp.place flywheel on flat concrete floor

(5) Grab ring gear with pliers and drop onto flywheel, making sure its properly aligned

(6) Install flywheel back onto engine

(7) Bolt trans and flywheel/clutch back to engines drive train

(8) Inspect old starter to make sure bendix gear alignment and clearance is still good

(9) Start engine

 

[grumpyvette]

Re: mini-starters/ trouble shooting starter problems

http://www.type2.com/bartnik/starter.htm

http://autorepair.about.com/od/troubles ... -start.htm

http://www.samarins.com/glossary/starter.html

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=1646&p=12717&hilit=starters#p12717

http://www.horsepowermonster.com/2012/s ... tion-tips/

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9526

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9112

Ive used both these starters in the past with no issues, obviously, you have hundreds of options
if your headers come close to the starter its generally a really good idea to use a heat shield over the starter, as heat and electronics don,t generally help durability

most small blocks use the strait bolt pattern, many use the smaller 153 tooth flywheel size, most BIG BLOCKS use the larger 168 tooth flywheels and the diagonal bolt pattern starters but there are engines that used either or both
http://store.summitracing.com/parts/dei ... dia/images

"
A starter is an electric motor needed to turn over the engine to start it.
A starter consists of the very powerful DC electric motor and starter solenoid that is attached to the motor (see the picture).
A starter motor requires very high current to crank the engine, that's why it's connected to the battery with large cables (see lower diagram).
The negative (ground) cable connects "-" battery terminal to the engine block close to the starter.
The positive cable connects "+" battery terminal to the starter solenoid.
The starter solenoid works as an electric switch - when actuated, it closes the circuit and connects the starter motor to the battery. At the same time, it pushes the starter gear forward to mesh with the engine's flywheel.

How the starting system works:
When you turn the ignition key to the "Start" position, the battery voltage goes through the starter control circuit and activates the starter solenoid, which in turn energizes the starter motor. The starter motor cranks the engine.
A starter can only be operated when the automatic transmission shifter is in "Park" or "Neutral" position or if the car has a manual transmission, when the clutch pedal is depressed.
To accomplish this, there is a Neutral safety switch installed at the automatic transmission, (or at the clutch pedal).
When the automatic transmission is not in "Park" or "Neutral" (or when the clutch pedal is not depressed), the neutral safety switch is open and the starter relay disconnects the starter control circuit.



Simplified diagram of typical starting system



Car starting problems

If when you turn the key to the "Start" position, you hear the starter cranking as usually, but the car doesn't start, then the problem is most likely not with the starting system - check Car no-start troubleshooting guide.
If when you turn the ignition key to the "Start" position and nothing happens, or all you hear is just a click, or the starter cranks very slow then you probably have a problem with one of the component of the starting system. Most often, it's the battery or the starter motor itself. "

its common for cars with headers to have heat sink problems or clearance issues with the O.E.M. starters,making use of a gear reduction starter a good option,
Id suggest you visit a few local starter/alternator rebuild shops,ask a few questions, I have found a few that offer rebuild gear reduction starters at a significant cost reduction even from that $200 level thats frequently quoted
the starters generally can be found with dual mount pattern hole locations so they can use either the 153 or 168 tooth flywheel size

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/TFF-6584B/?rtype=10

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/PRO-66268/

OEM flex plates are far thinner and more flexible than the SFI certified flex-plates , so they are far more likely to crack and split over time

use the correct starter mount bolts

 

[grumpyvette]

new and professionally rebuilt starters are not all that expensive
http://www.rockauto.com/en/catalog/...7cid+v8,1040870,electrical,starter+motor,4152

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9526

https://www.summitracing.com/parts/pwm-9112

Ive used both these starters in the past with no issues, obviously, you have hundreds of options

 

[grumpyvette]

heres an old post on the subject
step one

clean the battery connections very carefully, and reconnect them tightly to the battery, once youve done that...verify youve got fuel pressure at the injectors and spark at the plugs
verify youve got 12-14 volts at the battery AFTER youve got the starter turning the engine over or at least trying to do so., do the interior lights get dimmer when it cranks over? does the voltage drop off?

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-dig ... 98674.html
step two

try starting the car while youve got it hooked up to a second car with battery cables or hooked up to a high amp battery charger ...is there ANY differance?

step three
get your remote starter switch, bye-pass the ignition and see if the starter works without the ignition solinoid connections thru the ignition switch, if everything else appears to be working correctly, replace the starter and solinoid

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetail.asp?autofilter=1&part=PRO-67406&N=700+115&autoview=sku

http://www.autozone.com/addVehicleI...pping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008fdea

http://www.powermastermotorsports.com/faq-starter.html

http://www.autozone.com/addVehicleI...pping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008fe4b

http://www.autozone.com/addVehicleI...pping/repairGuide.htm?pageId=0900c1528008fd94

http://www.streetrodstuff.com/Articles/Electrical/Hot_Start_Problems/

start by cleaning both battery cable connections , verify the batterys charged and has 13 volts and doesn,t drop below 12 when you hit the starter,and verifying your alternator puts out about 13.7 -14.9 volts at idle once it starts
pull the trouble codes and buy a FACTORY SHOP MANUAL
a systematic and logical step by step process will locate the cause(s)
you can,t make valid choices without proven and verified facts, guessing is a waste of time and usually money

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=316&p=383&hilit=shop+manual#p383

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=2412&p=6369&hilit=battery+connection#p6369


viewtopic.php?f=36&t=3222&p=8575&hilit=battery+connection#p8575

viewtopic.php?f=80&t=728&p=9217&hilit=battery+connection#p9217

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=6082&p=18927&hilit=battery+connection#p18927

 

[Indycars]

I’ve used several of each type over the years, Id also recommend the supported style.

Starting to research possible starters for a 168 tooth flex plate. What do you mean by a "supported style" ???

Is there something better about the mini starters, other than there size? Can't a larger physical size be just as good or better performance wise???

 

[Indycars]

Grumpy,

Did you miss my question about the supported style above???

 

[grumpyvette]

Grumpy,

Did you miss my question about the supported style above???

http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-1319-new- ... 031-l.aspx

most small blocks use the strait bolt pattern, many use the smaller 153 tooth flywheel size, most BIG BLOCKS use the larger 168 tooth flywheels and the diagonal bolt pattern starters but there are engines that used either or both
in most cases Straight across starter designs fit against 153 tooth (and flexplates).

in most cases
Diagonal starters fit 168 tooth flywheels (and flexplates).

sure did, ok, you don,t need to worry if your using a mini ,high torque starter , they are much smaller and lighter in weight, and have a much larger and more massive mount area with both bolts longer giving the mount a much stiffer and less flexible mount than the OEM starters.

http://www.harborfreight.com/5-in-1-dig ... 98674.html

I just rebuilt both my 1996 and 1985 corvette starters, (totally different designs BTW)
having a remote starter test switch helps isolate the problem, the top pictured switch sells for $38 at napa, the AC-TRON below for about $13 at ADVANCE AUTO
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ANM-CP7853/

these test switches normally cost under $20 and easily test starter function along with a multi meter youll use to test battery voltage etc.
example

on the L98 starter pictured above the bolt mount can crack if the front support brackets not used to make the starter rigidly attached

396588 = BB or Caddy
3965589 = 168 tooth SB '66-'91
354353 = 153 tooth '66-'91
3851294 = '64-'69 Vette
3816511 = '62-'68 SB

Attachment: brackets.jpg (53.42 KB) 4 View(s)

VS the shorter and more rigid

 

[Indycars]

Thanks.....I wondered if that's what you meant, but I wasn't sure.

 

[grumpyvette]

As some of the others have already mentioned the mini-starter - problem solved for a song, you can get one of these for about $55 -$90 from DB Electrical,
http://www.dbelectrical.com/t-advancedsearch.aspx
which is a steal considering these used to be pretty expensive to pick up.

This of course assuming all other usual suspects have been addressed.

Hard to beat the GM mini starter. They fit easier, are considerably lighter, are stronger, and draw less power than the traditional full size starter.

Be sure to get the shorter bolts that it requires.

Richard

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/rnb-02349/overview/

http://www.summitracing.com/search/part-type/starter-rebuild-parts?PageSize=100

http://www.dbelectrical.com/p-1319-new-chevy-305-350-454-mini-racing-pmgr-starter-ht-sdr0031-l.aspx

 

[Grumpy]

Flexplate Balance

I recenly destroyed my JW Performance flexplate when starting my engine. It took out 8 teeth when the 565 kicked back with locked out timing.
(completely on me) Some time back when I had my rotator balanced I (of course) included the flexplate with the rotator. Surprisingly the $250+ flexplate was not "neutrally" balanced as one might expect from such a pricey piece. After pulling the flexplate I decided NOT to use the JW "Wheel" again this time around because of the expense. Instead I ordered an ATI $160 flexplate which was also supposed to be neutral in balance but when it went to the balance shop it turned out NOT to be balanced after all either. I had called ATI and asked if it would need to be balanced and the tech guy told me no (wasn't true). The reason I am posting this is so that those of us who are the do it yourself types won't just insatall a flexplate thinking it's as you might suspect it to be. Have it balanced.
the balance shop I use has been doing this over 30 years and they are using some state of the art equipment. I'm thinking they aren't going to drill where they don't have to as it costs them time. They do a boatload of balancing for a very high end crank company down here in soCal and also for the majority of the builders down here. When there yesterday I was checking out an AMG crank which imho was a work of art. I don't have the inventory to compare a flexplate back to back.

Thanks for your input.
I have an interanally balanced rotator assembly. It consists of Ross custom pistons, Callies Magnum crank, Callies Ultra rods, ATI balancer and the JW Performance flexplate. It is unlikely they balanced the neutral flexplate in order to balance the rest of the combination. It is also unlikely they balanced the ATI flexplate (balanced alone) for any other reason than it needed it. There are two people who work at this balance shop and all they do is balancing. They are very very widely used in this area and have a stellar reputation. Now lets take into consideration the flexplates, they are balanced when welded together but not after they are coated/painted or after the SFI certs are added. I don't think the balance shop is going to needlessly drill holes if it isn't required. I've personally used these guys for 30+ years. Maybe they lied?

ok maybe I'm missing something here but the last time I screwed up a ring gear on a flex plate I got out my die grinder removed the dozen 3/4" long welds and grabbed my TIG welder and had the old flexplate as good as new for UNDER $40, just duplicated the welds previous location, and no it didn,t seem to cause any issues with balance.

obviously youll want to carefully measure ring gear to center-line concentricy , weld on a dead flat table and tack weld with several adjustable clamps to maintain outer ring gear location before making serious welds.
while I fully agree that probably 75%-80% plus of the guys reading this have neither the skill or tools and experience to do this correctly in their home garage , theres little to prevent anyone from at least suggesting that option to your local machine shop, if you need to repair a flex plate with a damaged ring gear, if you don,t feel up to doing the repair yourself

READ THE THREAD AND SUB LINKS
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/build-a-welding-table.11814/#post-55973


Pioneer Ring Gears FRG168T - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

ATP Flywheel and Flexplate Ring Gears ZA-500 - Free Shipping on Orders Over $99 at Summit Racing

 

[87vette81big]

I will keep your tip salvaging damaged flexplates in mind Grumpy.
A lot of aftermarket parts are just Bad Junk.
Some items Scat does not make.
Like an SFI Flexplate for my 1965 Olds 425.
Its actually the hardest part of the engine to find.
Used only 1964 Olds 330ci V8.
1965 -67 OLDS 425, 400, 330 .
All Super Rare engines today.

There is a guy selling on fleabay a universal Olds Flexplate. Looks like China Junk.

The crank bolt pattern is unique on early Olds V8.

470 Ft/lbs bone stock 1965 Olds 425 rated.
1970 455 Pontiac is 500 Ft/lbs.

Pontiac original parts made nice too.
SFI Race parts easier to find and buy for them.