Oil Analysis Report

[wildjyoung]

I sent a sample of oil into Blackstone Labs after my rebuild. The engine ran so well I expected good results; however I was surprised to find very high lead, copper, and tin which they say can only come from the bearings. I am unable to attach the report.

Copper was 553 PPM, Lead was 263 PPM, and Tin was 16PPM. Viscosity was 7.6 cSt. The oil had 4.6% fuel which caused the low viscosity. The oil had 4 hours on it.

The crankshaft is an Eagle and bearings are clevite 77. Everything was balanced and measurements were taken. Plastigauge was used to verify clearances.

Can anyone provide their thoughts on the report? Am I doomed to pulling the motor out and putting new bearings in it?

Thanks for your help!

 

[grumpyvette]

whats your oil pressure like NOW ,is it steady?
the oil report might indicate an impending problem, then again theres some chance its not giving you a true indication of the engines condition,
... did you rebuild the engine block you had I if you,used with only a wash-up before re-use, from a previously worn engine,it might be residual debris in the oil passages, the reason Im asking is that Ive seen in the past guys re-use engine blocks that they had looked over after an engine had problems, solvent washed the original block and used all new components to rebuild, forgetting that a worn engine frequently has crud in the internal oil passages that gets flushed into the new rebuilt engine over time as high pressure oil flows thru those passages.
that residual crud will show up as worn bearings and tend to make you crazy until the second or third oil change, and while its not likely to help your current bearings one bit it will tend to read higher/worse than the true conditions , if thats your case
when you clean a block you'll need to pull all the oil passage plugs and use a rifle bore brush on the passages and a pressure washer spray followed immediately with lots of solvents and WD 40 to prevent rust.
personally Id suggest changing the oil and filter, and running the engine while keeping a good eye on the oil pressure, as long as its over 20psi at HOT IDLE with a quality 10w30 oil,and see the oil pressure increases rapidly with rpm increases Id wait and submit the third oil change oil for analysis, and trust those results far more than the first oil changes info, but if the hot oil pressure won,t stay over 20 psi with 10W30 oil ID pull it and carefully inspect it to find the source of the bearing material

READ THRU THESE THREADS

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[wildjyoung]

Oil pressure is steady with no problems. The oil the was tested was the initial run of the rebuild. I suspect the oil filter clogged at one point and activated the oil bypass because the oil pressure at hot idle was 15 PSI using 3.5 quarts of 5W30 and 1 Quart of Marvel Mystery Oil. However, when I went to the new oil and filter the oil pressure at hot idle was 30 - 35 PSI.

You may have something with the block. I purchased the block used but it had been bored and had the cam bearings and freeze plugs installed. I do know the block was raced previously and for some reason was being refreshed when he decided to sell it. So, you could be right, the readings could be from past use as I have no way of knowing if the oil passages were cleaned properly.

The report also showed high insolubles (sludge). This obviously should not occur with oil having only 4 hours on it. That may also be a strong indicator of residual sludge.

I will take your recommendations immediately and hope for the best! I guess catching the problem early on is much better than destroying a new engine. At least now I could put new bearings in it and have a good engine. Oil analysis is definitely a great thing!

Josh

 

[grumpyvette]

guys in home garage rebuilds and even a few engine shops, just cleaning a block externally and swapping in new cam bearings and assuming they are ready for a rebuild on a block that appears to be squeaky clean, yet never having run a rifle bore brush thru the oil passages or a clean out tap thru all the threaded holes is far more common than many people would believe

 

[wildjyoung]

Grumpy,

I think you were right. The new results are below. The oil sample had about 2 hours of run time on it.

New results (1.12.10)

Aluminum 2 PPM
Chromium 0 PPM
Iron 5 PPM
Copper 56 PPM
Lead 28 PPM
Tin 0 PPM
Molybdenum 92 PPM
Nickel 0 PPM
Manganese 0 PPM
Silver O PPM
Titanium 0 PPM
Potassium 5 PPM
Boron 4 PPM
Silicon 12 PPM
Sodium 5 PPM
calcium 1205 PPM
Magnesium 4 PPM
Phosphorus 1502 PPM
Zinc 1706 PPM
Barium 0 PPM


Initial results (12.13.09)

Aluminum 11 PPM
Chromium 1 PPM
Iron 38PPM
Copper 553 PPM
Lead 263 PPM
Tin 16PPM
Molybdenum 107 PPM
Nickel 1 PPM
Manganese 4 PPM
Silver O PPM
Titanium 0 PPM
Potassium 36 PPM
Boron 8 PPM
Silicon 56 PPM
Sodium 18 PPM
calcium 2214 PPM
Magnesium 10 PPM
Phosphorus 4254 PPM
Zinc 4542 PPM
Barium 1 PPM


Any thoughts?

 

[grumpyvette]

If your engine was in the process of rapid wear,like imminent bearing failure, obviously the amounts of crud in the oil would be higher,It seems that the amount of crud trapped in the first analysis was crud that was left from a previous engine failure, that was not properly removed prior to the current rebuild, the fairly high levels of the stuff still remaining in the second test indicate rings/cylinder walls and lifters lapping in and are about normal for a fairly new engine, it will probably continue to have even progressively lower levels as the parts lap in and seat and the adjacent moving surfaces self polish to some extent, allowing oil to flow faster thru larger clearances, clearances that are filled with pressurized oil in many cases that progressively reduce, the contact between moving lubricated components.
keep in mind a good deal of that analysis shows, is things like
calcium ,Phosphorus ,Zinc that are in the new oil in large amounts as additives, as friction or acid reducers
Boron, Magnesium, Calcium, Barium, Phosphorous, and Zinc: These metals are normally from the lubricating oil additive package. They involve detergents, dispersants, extreme-pressure additives, etc.

you might find these threads interesting

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http://www.bobistheoilguy.com/index.php ... &Itemid=56

http://www.carbibles.com/engineoil_bible.html

http://micapeak.com/info/oiled.html

http://mcgeerf.tripod.com/americansynth ... /id17.html

 

[wildjyoung]

As usual, thanks for your help!

I was feeling much better about things until last night when I tried to flush out the oil by pouring more through the engine and letting it drain out. I looked at the pan and found hundreds of tiny metal particles that looked like glitter. They are not magnetic as I installed magnets per your recommendation. I could not tell color as they were in darker oil.

Should I be concerned about the non-magnetic "glitter" or is this just the breaking in process?

 

[grumpyvette]

As usual, thanks for your help!

I was feeling much better about things until last night when I tried to flush out the oil by pouring more through the engine and letting it drain out. I looked at the pan and found hundreds of tiny metal particles that looked like glitter. They are not magnetic as I installed magnets per your recommendation. I could not tell color as they were in darker oil.

Should I be concerned about the non-magnetic "glitter" or is this just the breaking in process?

SOME bearing material ( fine metallic dust/glitter) in the oil IS expected on a first oil change ,if the previous engine failure residue was not correctly cleaned you might still be getting crud trapped in the oil passages showing up,in your engine as the oil passages continue to flush, out.
but from the description, the amount I think your describing seems excessive, that's NOT NORMAL on a second oil change, can you post a picture?
at this point if it was my car ID use the tool I posted a link to below, and disassemble the oil filter (something I generally do after most oil changes) and carefully inspect the contents, if it seems to show more than a few random metallic specs it will most likely indicate imminent bearing problems, and I know you don,t want to hear this but ..PREEMPTIVE EXPLORATORY ENGINE SURGERY MIGHT BE A GOOD IDEA

read thru these

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=938

http://store.summitracing.com/partdetai ... toview=sku

http://www.circletrack.com/techarticles ... index.html
its basically a heavy duty can opener designed to make it easy to internally inspect oil filters, by allowing you to remove the filter element , from inside the surrounding (metal CAN surrounding the filter element) for close visual inspection.and a really nice tool to have


viewtopic.php?f=54&t=2080

viewtopic.php?f=53&t=2727&p=7078&hilit=bearings#p7078

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=615

from chevy high performance mag

 

[wildjyoung]

I tried to take pictures last night but was unfortunately able to get any that would show the particulate.

The only things I can say, is that I was not able to get the oil all out after the first run as the oil was cold. So, I am hoping that I was just cleaning out residual metal. I will open the filter tonight and report what I find. Right now I am just nervous. I just cannot see how we did anything wrong as everything checked out.

One thing I did learn is that the previous owner of the block somehow installed the wrong timing chain, which cause it to grind against the block. You can actually see a spot on the top behind the cam gear were it ate into the block about 1/16". I am sincerely hoping this is the issue being washed out. However, I am losing hope. I am going to run the car for another 2-3 hours, drain the oil (checking for particulate) and send to Blackstone for analysis.

I will also try to get a sample tonight in a clear bottle to see if I can isolate the particulate and get a better picture.