OK GRUMPY , what would you build for that?

[grumpyvette]

Ill BE WORKING ON THIS thread and adding too it,OFF AND ON FOR A WHILE, yeah a bit of wishful thinking, about what Id like to build, if I had the funds

I got an E-mail question asking me to put a bit of detail into the components Id select to build a kick-butt and take names BBC engine for a car that would be a week end toy,similar to RICK's T-bucket,or my Brother-in-laws COBRA and a brief explanation of WHY you would select those components ? IT would be matched to a full manual control 4l80e trans a 3200 rpm stall converter and a DANA 60 rear differential with a 3.55:1-3.73:1 rear gear with 29"-30" diameter treaded street tires in a car that weight's under 2500 lbs, the power goal will be not as important as high durability,a visually impressive combo,an engine designed for, low maintenance , semi reasonable cost, easy parts availability and a very impressive wide torque curve that allows the engine to perform well in the 3500rpm- 6200rpm power band. yeah Id build it to run on race octane fuel, and I would never subject it to the piss level octane swill the pumps at gas stations dispense, so Id be looking to build an engine that runs on about 105 octane if it was my toy, so I might consider E85 as its rated at 105 octane , but I would darn sure have a way to accurately test the true ethanol content and build the fuel system and injection to run efficiently on e85 if I went that route

well Id start with a DART BIG M, TALL DECK block with a 4.5" bore as ID want the largest bore size I could reasonably get while still maintaining MAXIMUM bore wall rigidity
http://hotrodenginetech.com/dart-big-m- ... eparation/
http://www.dartheads.com/products/aitdo ... e_id/1663/
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/drt-31263454

ID select a 4340 forged steel , internally balanced SCAT crank with the 6.535" forged rods and pistons, with 7/16" ARP 2000 series rod bolts and have the pistons thermally coated, then have the assembly carefully balanced to a 1 gram, limit
572 4-454-4500-6535-C 2-454-6535-2200 4.500" 6.535" PREMIUM 4.500 DOME 12.5 11.8 11.3 1-43284 1-43284BI

heres the roller cam,a crower solid roller
Performance level - High RPM-\
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 268°/279° RR: 1.7/1.7 Gross Lift: .706”/.700” LSA: 110° RPM: 2800 to 7200 Redline: 7700
and Id specify a BILLET cam core not a cast core as thats really mandatory on a serious solid roller lifter cam.
keep in mind with 572 displacement , and 12.5:1 compression,that durations going to support about 1100rpm lower
http://www.crower.com/camshafts/chevy-3 ... -7195.html
I'D HAVE THE BLOCKS LIFTER BORES MACHINED FOR THE LARGER DIAM. CHRYSLER .904 DIAM LIFTERS
solid roller cam lifters are much cheaper and lighter in weight than hydraulic roller lifters and properly set up just as durable when used in an application that will have valve train spring load rates that will compliment the 6500 rpm max rpm limits the engine plan will be built to match
would I rather have individual runner stack injection? hell yes
but by the time I get the EFI controller, intake manifold injectors etc. the dual throttle body tunnel ram injection comes out $800-$1200 less so theres options

edelbrock recently came out with an improved tunnel ram designed to use throttle 4500 size bodys and injectors for the BBC rectangle port heads part #70855 for roughly $600 for the base
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-70855 mainifold base $600
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7086 top plate $200
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-3659 fuel rail kit $150
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7077 throttle linkage $140
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-3879 DOMINATOR THROTTLE BODYS $500 EACH
youll still need a controller and sensors and a wire harness
85lb-95 lb injector sets should cost in the $400-450 range if you shop, and while that setup is not cheap its competitively priced..

but if the budget were not all that tight!
Id go the old school route in a heart beat
with EFI stack injection and a vertex max, without a seconds hesitation

Id run a 3 quart, oil accumulator and a 10 quart baffled oil pan with a custom windage tray, and a powered fan on a dual circuit transmission/oil cooler , (I doubt the oil cooler would be necessary)
Id select a individual coil on plug ignition with the proper crank, indexed spark timing

Id go for valve spring cooling oil squirters as they add durability

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=5916&p=18181&hilit=+ignition+coil+plug#p18181
yes the 365 CNC port trick flow heads ARE a bit larger than would be ideal, for the application, but IT been selected to provide more air flow than required for future use of a dual nitrous and E85 mix and to kill off a bit of UN- necessary lower rpm torque as this is NOT a true race engine, but rather a high power street strip toy that will seldom see rpm levels over about 4500rpm in real use!
properly assembled 800hp and 750 ft lbs at the flywheel should be easy to reach keep in mind this is not designed for all out power but impressive power with high durability and reasonable life expectancy, and Id set the rev limiter at 6000rpm.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-4141t804-c02
http://www.trickflow.com/partdetail.asp ... toview=sku

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/tfs-4 ... /overview/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...hing-the-drive-train-to-the-engine-combo.741/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...electing-a-torque-converter-stall-speed.1715/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...late-gear-ratios-and-when-to-shift-calcs.555/

all it takes is a tiny bit of research and some math to calculate the ideal rear differential gearing, tires size etc. and transmission gear ratios, and you can certainly select the correct torque converter stall speed if you have a dyno graph of your engines power curve without much difficulty, an hour or so spent in reading and research will provide you with a great deal better performance from most cars.
and a couple days worth of research and doing some math on all of the power trains component parts will provide you with a wealth of info that can prevent you from making costly mistakes.

A SIMILAR BIT OF RELATED INFO

http://www.hotrod.com/how-to/engine/hrd ... vy-engine/


http://hotrodenginetech.com/540ci-all-m ... -screamer/

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/05/2 ... -assembly/

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/09/0 ... s-top-end/

http://www.onallcylinders.com/2012/10/1 ... o-results/

viewtopic.php?f=54&t=6491&p=20681&hilit=valve+spring+oiling#p20681

http://www.maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=5123

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ing-a-cobra-replica-kit-car.10356/#post-48297

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=1474

 

[philly]

thats a hell of a motor there grump... in a little light car that should be a handful... hell, in a 70 chevelle that would be a handful!

 

[grumpyvette]

Ive read thru that link I posted here, viewtopic.php?f=44&t=11014
and I'd bet 99% of the members, either don,t have the required experience , the tools or cash for a machine shop,or the listed parts, available too even attempt an engine build, similar to that thread and I'm thinking from previous posts that might be a conservative estimate.
Now don,t MS-understand the intent of this post, I'd love to have something similar built, as I'm sure most of us would. but I did a rough estimate and it seems too me that the engine would cost close to $20K or a bit more, too have it built to the quality and care level I'm quite sure you would intend it to be built too! and (thats far more money than most of us can afford to put into a week end project even if its spread over several years time), so I'm wondering what you would build on a far more realistic budget most top the members could actually contemplate building on a semi reasonable budget!.

yeah! I,m in the same cash flow limited condition so trust me here I FULLY relate to what your saying here!
if your like most of the guys I seem to deal with thats frequently the case so I generally start out by strongly suggesting a detailed TUNE UP and a careful verification of the correct function of the existing engines components and tune! you might be amazed at the number of guys that start out thinking they need a new cam or intake swap, on a 40-50 year old muscle car, that find the lack of performance , they have come to think of as normal is based on a current engine that way out of tune , and that some basic maintenance, and a tune -up does wonders. or the problem they don,t realize they have, is caused by matching components that were previously installed are so badly mis- matched or semi-functional at best that, the engine hardly performing under its current condition. restrictive exhaust systems marginal fuel supply's and just general lack of maintenance or badly mis-matched parts, or well worn components or badly adjusted rockers, or ignition timing, are all to common. keep in mind the very common peanut port open chamber heads that most guys would not use on any type of performance big block build still significantly out flow the vaunted and sought after small block vortec heads,used on so many performance SBC builds. so even peanut port heads have a bit more performance potential with some mild port and bowl clean up work than most guys will even consider,and reaching 500hp and 550 ft lbs with a properly built 468-496 is an obtainable goal in many cases, and the average set of the older and larger oval port heads that generally out flow the restrictive peanut port heads can rather easily support over 500 hp when cleaned up and matched to the correct components.
most guys ignore the BBC engines potential with the stock ,mildly reworked heads because darn near every article in a magazine used after market heads that flow better (keep in mind the object of most articles in magazines is to SELL YOU PARTS!) but even the relatively restrictive peanut port heads on an engine thats got about 9.5:1-10:1 compression and a cam with a fairly tight LSA and a bit more than stock duration, and some port and bowl reworking can provide surprising performance.
these links might help
viewtopic.php?f=55&t=109

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=741

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=196

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=211

viewtopic.php?f=55&t=58

viewtopic.php?f=56&t=495

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=2798

viewtopic.php?f=70&t=4683

Polishing a Set of Sneakers by Patrick Budd

now you certainly can make a very noticeable improvement in most cars performance on a semi reasonable budget
once you get the engine up and running correctly you have a base line to use and can then make changes.
if your starting with the rather typical older muscle car or some truck salvage yard or motor homes 454 as a base line it helps a great deal to verify exactly what your working with by verifying the casting and vin numbers and doing a compression test

viewtopic.php?f=51&t=93&p=117&hilit=casting+numbers#p117

http://maliburacing.com/patrick_budd_article.htm

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=3153

viewtopic.php?f=44&t=5531&p=16756&hilit=sneakers#p16756

viewtopic.php?f=52&t=10705&p=46582&hilit=better+expected#p46582

viewtopic.php?f=69&t=4620&p=46849&hilit=peanut+port#p46849

READ THE SUB LINKED THREADS or youll miss a great deal of related info
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=2900&p=44642&hilit=peanut+port#p44642

Ive generally found that swapping to an EDELBROCK AIR GAP or WIEAND AIR STRIKE dual plane intake and a decent 750cfm holley or similar carb then adding headers as a first step can if properly done be worth 50-60hp on most big blocks. do some minor port and bowl clean-up and you can add 20 plus hp.
yeah once thats been done a mild cam upgrade can often make a marked improvement , but if the base engines lacking compression or the valve guides rings or bearings are well worn, your better off getting the engine back to its full original power level and durability, by up=grading the basics of fuel supply and ignition system, headers,and compression,valve train control than just slapping (SPEED PARTS) on an old well past its prime engine

 

[grumpyvette]

Ive had good results using the peanut port heads with this intake (yeah take the time to de-burr and clean it up, port the plenum just a bit to smooth flow and if you have the hood clearance a 2" open spacer under a 750cfm carb tends to help)
peanut port heads in decent shape are frequently available for under $300 a set, making them a bargain in many cases, for some applications

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-226052
and this cam.
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-01206 (crower cam)
INT/EXH - Dur @ .050” Lift: 232°/242° RR: 1.7/1.7 Gross Lift: .525”/.537” LSA: 108° RPM: 2000-2400 to 6000 Redline: 6500 Learn More
$157.66


and YES SWAPPING TO BETTER SPRINGS and retainers that give you .050 more lift clearance is MANDATORY as is swapping to adjustable rockers on peanut port heads
READ THE SUB LINKED THREADS or youll miss a great deal of related info
viewtopic.php?f=69&t=2900&p=44642&hilit=peanut+port#p44642
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-4514-kit

youll need the decent valve springs

what you really should do is order these
Dart 27001230-4 - Dart Pushrod Guideplates

http://www.racingsprings.com/1200_Series/sku/5 (and yes having a machine shop clearance the heads and do a mild port and bowl clean up to be sure the works done and clearanced correctly when swapping to the adjustable rocker arm and better valve springs is a really good idea as is a 3 angle valve job and new valve seals and having the valve guide clearance checked and then verify rocker geometry.
ROLLER rockers cost more but reduce friction and are usually good for a 20-25 hp gain on a big block

http://www.racingsprings.com/1200-Serie ... 0/Item/208
http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cro-01206 (crower cam)

http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-226052