ok youve shreaded your 10 bolt rear?

grumpyvette

grumpyvette

Administrator
Staff member
I can,t tell you the number of times I see guys with chevelles,camaros, etc, that have problems with a 10 bolt rear. and the first thing you hear is get a 12 bolt, well, a decent 12 bolt is ok, but pro built it can easily cost over $3K, and if your swapping to a stronger rear differential anyway look over your options,
damage like this is common, when the 10 bolt rear differentials subjected to high stress loads
10boltbroke1.jpg

10boltbroke2.jpg

10boltbroke3.jpg

IF your dead set on running a 10 bolt differential in a serious performance application with 500 ft lbs of torque or more the clear plastic rear cover ,is a great idea.. that way you can see the shreaded internals without even pulling the rear cover
lex10b.jpg


ok I just got to ask, why would anyone pay $3200 plus for a 12 bolt when theres bolt in rears based on a hybrid dana 60 available with its 9.75" rear gears that are darn near bullet proof,that are significantly stronger, and depending on options ,costs less vs the chevy 8.7/8" gears and lower strength assembly
yes the chevys 25 lbs lighter but that 25 lbs is all steel that makes the dana 60 hybrid significantly stronger

http://www.strangeengineering.net/catalog/index.html

I destroyed several 12 bolts before swapping to a dana 60 with a nitrous BBC in a camaro, I installed a dana 60 and never had another problem

a ford 9" is a decent option , especially if you get a deal, at a local salvage yard, on a differential with disc brakes
http://www.kevinstang.com/Ninecase.htm

the reason I bring this up, is that theres DOZENS of options
and if you have a 10 bolt G.M. rear you may want to upgrade to add a good bit more strenth, and durability, ID certainly look into the local salvage yards for a rear differential of aproximately your cars current width, and look for a rear differential with disc brakes If I had a camaro or nova or similar 10 bolt differential car once the G.M. 10 bolt failed rather than sinking cash into a 10 bolt rebuild, the parts size and mass is just not there to withstand long term abuse!
http://www.mustangsandmore.com/ubb/FordRearDimensions.html
FORD READ DIFFERENTIALS ARE JUST NOT VERY HARD TO FIND, NOR ARE MOST OVERLY EXPENSIVE (especially compared to the cost of rebuilding a G.M. 10 bolt with top quality components) that could easily exceed $1200)
1965-1966 Mustang 57.25 inches
1967-1970 Mustang 59.25 inches
1971-1973 Mustang 61.25 inches
1977-1981 Versailles 58.50 inches
1967-1973 Mustang, Torino, Ranchero, Fairlane 59.25 inches to
61.25 inches
1957-1959 Ranchero and station wagon 57.25 inches
1966-1977 Bronco 58 inches
1977-1981 Granada/Versailles 58 inches
1967-1971 Comet, Cougar, Mustang, Fairlane 59.25 inches
1971-1973 Mustang 61.25 inches
1964 Falcon 58 inches
1967 Cougar 60 inches
1967 Fairlane 63.50 inches coil springs
1972 Ford Van 3/4 ton 68 inches
1973-1986 Ford Van 3/4 ton 65.25 inches
1957-1959 Ranchero and station wagon
57.25 inches
narrowest 9" housing
1966-1977 Bronco 58 inches 5-on-5 1/2 inch diameter bolt circle
1967-1973 Torinos, Rancheros, Fairlanes 59.25 inches or
61.25 inches
1967-1971 Comets, Cougars, Fairlanes 59.25 inches
http://dfwmotorsport.com/Fairlane/9inchrearends.htm

http://www.superchevy.com/how-to/148-02 ... r-install/

http://www.kevinstang.com/Ninecase.htm

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/ ... build.html

http://www.off-road.com/trucks4x4/artic ... ?id=198404

http://www.carcraft.com/techarticles/cc ... ewall.html

http://www.autohobbydigest.com/dana.html

http://www.pirate4x4.com/tech/billavist ... Rea%20Axle).PDF

http://www.offroaders.com/directory/axles/dana60.htm

http://www.currieenterprises.com/CESTORE/alldana60.aspx


the ford 9" and dana 60 rear were used for years in trucks and a few cars, theres still plenty out there in salvage yards and many are also reasonably priced

http://wallaceracing.com/axledata2.htm

http://tech.oldsgmail.com/axle_useage.php

http://www.oldsmobility.com/old/10bolt-tech.htm

http://chevellestuff.net/qd/rear_axle_info.htm

http://www.differentials.com/technical-help/differential-identification

http://www.differentials.com/gm-axle-ratio-identification-codes

http://www.differentials.com/technical-help/differential-identification

http://www.fourwheeler.com/how-to/transmission-drivetrain/1312-10-bolt-builder-s-guide/

differ1.jpg

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differ5.png

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differ7.png



axlecode.gif


1974AGaxles.jpg
 
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http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

you might find this helpful

I run DANA 60 rears in my serious cars simply because having a nearly bulletproof rear diff is far more important than a couple hp or a few extra pounds of weight, I seldom have problems getting a car too perform reasonably well but the idea of loss of an AXLE or wheel under hard accelleration BOTHERS ME!
Ive been looking into the 14 bolt chevy rears recently with thier 10.5" ring gears and easy set up, and very low cost, you might want to keep in mind that almost ANY REAR DIFF set up correctly with the correct hardened parts like axles and posi units or lockers spools ETC,will cost about $1200-$2200 depending on parts sellected so you may as well get something you install that won,t break the first few times you launch with 500-800ft lbs of tq at 2500-5000rpm with huge slicks, on a street car the spinning tires act like a fuse on the shock loads but on a serious race car you need dependability, large disc brakes and massive parts that are easy to obtain.
you might also keep in mind you CAN have a DANA 60 or CHEVY 14 bolt center scetion with a chevy bolt pattern on ford outer bearings with a chevy bolt circle and ford brakes ETC. ITS ALL custom built, you get to be creative and have options on a race car

rear diff related info

http://www.howstuffworks.com/differential.htm

http://www.rocky-road.com/diffid.html

http://www.strangeengineering.net/high- ... s/s60.html

http://www.nationwideparts.com/differentials.htm

http://www.strangeengineering.net/catalog/index.html

http://dfwmotorsport.com/Fairlane/9inchrearends.htm

http://www.maliburacing.com/tech_rearend_swaps.html

http://www.enjenjo.com/9inch.html
http://www.myphotosonline.biz/albums/ph ... FInstalled

http://forums.hybridz.org/showthread.php?t=116207

http://www.modern-motorsports.com/catal ... ucts_id=57

http://www.2quicknovas.com/happyrearends.html

http://www.drivetrain.com/driveline_angle_problem.html

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/ ... Setup.html
http://www.chevyhiperformance.com/techa ... index.html

http://www.markwilliams.com/reartech.aspx
http://www.4wheeloffroad.com/techarticl ... index.html

http://www.geartechhd.com/gallery/thumb ... hp?album=4

http://pw2.netcom.com/~gnenad/axles.html

http://nastyz28.com/camaro/camaro80.html

http://www.baselinesuspensions.com/info ... ag_Car.htm

http://www.currieenterprises.com/cestor ... arend.aspx

http://ford.off-road.com/ford/article/a ... ?id=198404 http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/ ... build.html

http://www.ford-trucks.com/article/idx/ ... Setup.html

http://vettenet.org/susp_chart.html
 
Ive twisted up into scrap, several pro built 12 bolt Chevy rears, ...Ive needed to change bearings and gears in 9" fords on a regular basis but IVE yet to need more than basic maintenance like checks on lash, adjustments and fluid changes on the DANA 60 and that was behind just a serious BBC producing only about 700 plus hp and 700 plus ft lbs of tq
something to keep in mind when your selecting a rear for a race car, and I launched fairly easy with a 25lb, 30lb or 40 lb flywheel (I tried them all, the 40 lb seemed the best compromise,in that it was dead on consistent the 30lb had the best times, but only by a hair, but was less consistent) and those flywheels were on a 13.5:1 cpr 496 BBC at only about 2200rpm, and with 31" tall x 14" wide slicks in a 3000 lb car, higher rpm launches resulted in more tire smoke but less acceleration, I pulled the front wheels easily for 30-60 feet , depending on track conditions, tire pressure, shock & suspension preloads and rpm of launch,so I was getting traction and that in only a low 10s car,
BTW break an axle on a stock 12 bolt and the wheel exits the car, so get the axle retainer kit installed

I got so tired of repairs on rear differentials that I did the research and found the swap to a 9" ford or DANA 60 was almost always cheaper in the long run than trying to beef up a 10 or even a 12 bolt Chevy rear.

you need to read thru the info

http://performanceunlimited.com/documen ... guide.html

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=273

viewtopic.php?f=45&t=757

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1934

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=2186

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=398

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1889

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=1282

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=478

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=945
 
kevinR said:
Grumpy I busted my axle and when I pulled the axle for inspection the wheel bearings were obviously well worn on my 1967 firebird , it has a 10 bolt rear with a 3.36:1 rear gear with a 400 pontiac and a manual 4 speed, so I,m wondering if I should replace the ale and wheel bearings or the whole differential ?
Click to expand...

I can,t imagine going thru the effort and expense and time required to upgrade a rear differential in a car and still retain the stock G.M.10 bolt differential, (mainly because I have shredded several in the past with very little effort)and because most pick and pull type salvage yards have a decent selection of 9" ford, 9 1/8" mopar , 8.8" ford and DANA 60 rear differentials, available , usually at decent prices

now it will take you a few hours to read thru the links below but it will take you far longer to replace a shredded 10 bolt differential, and theres little sense in doing it over and over, when theres far stronger differentials available, and while its true most will require some fabrication, measuring welding and in most cases a new drive shaft , youll learn a good deal in the process and usually not need to deal with a failed differential or busted axles again.
maybe its because I mostly build big block engines or engines over 400 cubic inches, but the G.M. 10 bolt rear in my mind has slightly more strength than those potato chips with ridges, and seem as durable, once you exceed about 475-550 ft lbs of torque and add decent traction tires

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RELATED INFO
viewtopic.php?f=46&t=4067&p=10823&hilit=pontiac+traction#p10823

viewtopic.php?f=71&t=5586

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I found Dana 60 specs from researching on my own Grumpy.
Post this weekend time permitting.
From Mopar sites.
I don't know for sure how many Dana 60's are left.
Cash for clunkers sure dried up parts supplies used.
Hard to find even on Craigslist.
Factory Mopar Posi Rears.
 
There is a small differences in Dana 60's.
Ford. GM. Dodge . Jeep. Kaiser used also.
Mopar Musclecar. Mopar Musclecar Dana 60 was made best stock I think Rick.
Its what Grumpy had in his 68 Vette & 1965 Lemans with 496's.

Thar Ford Axle be Ok. Its a full floater. 8-lug wheel Hubs.
Narrow. Purchas race axles.
 
Not disputing the strength of a nine in, an 8.8 a pretty nifty on the cheap and hey, any time Dana 60 is brought up I don't know anyone who would argue its ability to put power to the ground. All great choices but I'm pretty happy with my 8.5 10 bolt axles. The 8.2 10bolt definately needs swapped for something else.

One came with the car and a set of 3.42 gears. If I did anything to upgrade it would be a 30 spline posi and set of axles to complete the deal. While I'm not dumping 700ft/lbs in I am laying down high 1.50 sixty ft times in a 3600lb street car.

The other one isn't under the car yet but was picked from a 72 Skylark. This particular unit has the 8.5 ring and bolt in axles. I have been combing for a used eaton or what ever to make both sides spin. It will be fronted by a bbb455/th400 until I am comfortable with my skillz to build a 2004r for it. I have a set of 3.08 and 3.23 to try with the 400 but will probably go to 3.55 for the 2004r.

Mine are street cars but this introduces a different set of requirements than just hookin and running in a straight line.

If I was starting from scratch I would definately but scoping an 8.8 due to my budget.
I am very happy with the 8.5 10 bolt.
 
No Disrespect to You but Just how many Race Differentials have you built for others ??
Build any for 1400-2000 Hp Low 8-second Drag Cars & a High 7-second Door Slammer 540 BBC Alcohol burner ?
If a rear locks up because it failed the Race car driver is coming to see you.
Real Drag Racers are Mean & Nasty.
Always ready to throw down & fight.

Ford 8.8 works great in a 5.0 stang because the car is light.
2800-3200 lbs Driver seated & gasoline.

GM 10-Bolt has only 2.891" carrier bearing bores.
Dana 60 is 3.250".
9.3 Poncho is 3.250" with 1.875 " pinion shaft.
 
I know lots of guys with health small blocks that run on street tires that run for years without issues with a 10 bolt rear, some even manage to turn in impressive ET and MPH time slips, but once you add slicks, add nitrous or a build a serious big block engine the torque and impact loads mean a 10 bolt rears living on borrowed time
http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...bbc-muscle-car-engine-combo.10084/#post-39412
17" & 18" rim size slicks are available
http://www.titanmotorsports.com/tires.html

http://www.mickeythompsontires.com/strip/et-street-ss/
 
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Answer for your question, a grand total of Zero differentials assembled and sold to others.

I never brought into your equation that you didn't know how to assemble a differential. I never said my use and choice of the 10 bolt was a good idea if you are bolting on the 14-32s and hitting it with three kits. I am pointing out that my street cars that see some passes do just fine with one.

What you are putting into an axle I have in the whole drivetrain. Yeah, I'm low budget yeah I ain't laying down 7s, but my goal is a 6 sec slip in the eight with my little hair dried 6cyl.
 
Ok. You have remember that a Hair Dryer Buick 6cyl can easily put out 500-550 flywheel torque today.
28-spline axle shafts stock in a 8-1/2" 10-bolt.
Tough but not Bullet Proof.
They have a Nasty habit of twisting off the pinion shaft from the pinion gear head sometimes.
Witnessed.
 
All GM 10- bolt 8.5 have C -clip axles except for the 70's G body Pontiac Grand Prix.
And a 1978 Buick Electra with Factory 403 Olds V8 & Turbo 400 Transmissiob.
 
71-72 Olds n Buick A Bodies have bolt in axle shafts on an 8.5 from the factory. Look into it. Pontiac and Chevys didn't. Though they did have the 8.5 ten bolt in those model years.

That 8.5 pinion is darn near as big as a 12 bolt, not that it won't twist off. You've obviously been to the strip. You see a lot of stuff happen there. That doesn't make me think I need a Dana 60 hanging from the control arms. I can appreciate that a 700hp/torque launching off a trans brake needs a stout rear end. I just don't think my street car needs such over kil. In that same vein, I'm not using a billet shaft forward drum in my 2004r. Will it leave me stranded. It might but that is all part of the journey. Other wise we might as well cruise around in deuce and a halfs. Hard to break the drive train in those.

At my level I'm doing good to be at 450hp, but I have a couple larger turbos to try and a 4.1 L block that I'm saving the change for some forged slugs to fill. If I hit the lottery you will see the rods hanging from a body forged stroker crank too, but I not holding my breath.
 
Your Wrong. I don't need to look into.
I have Built or Rebuilt almost 300 differentials in the last 26 years.
I set up a 1976 Pontiac Grand Prix with 3.70 Richmond Gears in the 8-1/2" Rear.
Bolt in Bearing Retainer axle shafts Stock.
Also used Custom Made Mark Wiliams Race Axle shafts.
Have been to dragstrips at least 1,000 times.
 
horse power levels is a lousy way to use , too predict a differential failure, heres, one of several reasons why
parts break from impact or shock and torsional loads,
horse power is calculated like this
torque x rpm / 5252=hp
thus
if we build a 283 SBC and add a good solid lifter cam, and let it scream, it might make 350 ft lbs x 6700rpm/5252=446hp

if we build a 598 big block with peanut port heads and add a good high lift short duration roller lifter cam, and let it strangle on those small ports, it might make 700 ft lbs at 3350rpm/5252=446hp
now feed both engine outputs thru a 4.56 rear gear ratio, and

350 ft lbs x 6700rpm/5252=446hp x 4.56=1596 ft lbs
700 ft lbs at 3350rpm/5252=446hp x4.56=3192 ft lbs



Knowing how much torque you are applying (this assumes you have perfect traction with only a 10% slippage at your slick) to the axles here is a chart of aftermarket axles listing their failure points (on average).

http://www.truehi9.com/gears2.html

28 spline axle________1.200" dia. ________ 4,571 lbs.-ft. stock (GM test data)
28 spline axle stub ___1.250" dia. ________ 3,787 lbs.-ft. stock Corvette (Dana 44)
30 spline axle________1.250" dia. ________ 6,473 lbs.-ft. stock (GM test data)
31 spline axle________1.315" dia. ________ 7,000 lbs.-ft. (Ford 8.8" rear)
33 spline axle________1.370" dia. ________ 8,200 lbs.-ft. (GM 14 bolt truck)
35 spline axle________1.500" dia. _______ 9,600 lbs.-ft. (Dana 60)
40 spline axle________1.710" dia. _______ 12,000 lbs.-ft.

Here is a web site with a great graphic that shows why spline count is so important.
http://performanceunlimited.com/documen ... guide.html

img96.gif


same horses power but far different torsional loads
add factors like car weight ,tire height, tire compounds, tire heat, and width,road surface,condition and material, launch rpms, shift rpms, rotating assembly weight,nitrous or supercharger use,and theres potentially a huge difference's in load and impact figures the suspension and drive train components see
 
Re: ok youve shreaded your 10 bolt rear

You have to take into account Vehicle Mass or Weight, Ring & Pinion Gear Tooth Nomeclature design, Bearing Sizes, and How many Ring Gear Teeth are in constant Tooth Contact with Ring Gear also Grumpy.
Dana 60 is built Right.
1957-64 Pontiac Olds 9.300 is too. :Dr
 
There is also the issue of controlling or eliminating Ring gear mounting point deflection.
 
we talk about this all the time, theres guys in mustangs with ford 8.8's laying out thousands of lb ft of torque and they live.... and there are guys with 12 bolts that brake em with 600-800 lb ft... theres more to a differentials life span than meets the eye... from experience with turbo cars i can garauntee the shock provided by 750lb ft of torque turbocharged (regardless of displacement or cylinders) is nothing compared to a peanut head 454 on a 250 gun of nitrous. alot of people when they first drive a turbo car describe it as an "upside down" torque curve because of the way the torque loads... not neccessarily lag as it relates to the time take to achieve full boost (i try to build combos that have full boost before 4000 rpm) its the way the motor reacts to the extra atmospheres it just got shoved down its gullet... its this feature i think that saves alot of boosted differentials and transmissions.
 
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