Procharged Gto

Discussion in 'Superchargers, Turbos, Nitrous' started by AutoWiz, Jun 19, 2019.

  1. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    It has been a handful of years since the power adder went in. This was maybe 5-6 years ago this went in, now? I did take a few pictures back then but only a few. Here is the power adder and all its components and instructions on my box as I was starting the job..

    [​IMG]

    And this is after the initial install I believe just under 70k on the odometer. like 68 or so..

    [​IMG]

    We have seen the vehicle for oil changes and other upgrades since. We welded in some subframe connectors. The car has an oversized driveshaft from the driveshaft shop. And other bolt ons. Then a few years ago we changed pulleys and I setup an aggressive tune and we got 480hp at the tires. This GTO was and is an incredible machine. A 2-door CTS-V from 2006. That is what this car is. With a 6 speed tremec t56.
     
    Last edited: Jun 22, 2019
  2. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    Fast forward to today and this old friend has come back to see us again. The Pontiac now has 90k on the clock. And the motor still runs like a raped ape..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    I Love this car. The owner has such great taste. Them be real Vossens, btw.
     
  3. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    We need to remove the spark plugs and see how the motor has been running..

    [​IMG]

    With the spark plugs out we can see that this motor has been running clean. Maybe too clean for a boosted application, lol..

    [​IMG]

    When we changed the blower pulley and got 480 at the tires a few years back now the car also was just starting to drop fuel pressure and lean out as it passed 6k rpm at wide open throttle. I mean it was at the verge of what the fuel system could handle. Which was a stock fuel system with a boost a pump. An early boost a pump with a voltage control knob so you can throw your precise tune out the window at will.
     
    Last edited: Jun 25, 2019
  4. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    We are thinking about getting a bit more power out of this car. With a power adder that is always a simple thing. This car currently has a 3.7" pulley on the blower. Down from the 4.0" that came with the blower and we are now going to drop down to 3.4". Obviously there needs to be some meaningful fuel supply upgrade and there is a different set of spark plugs that we need to run now that we are going to be over 10psi of boost.

    [​IMG]

    This is a matter of safety, really. Not just are we going 2 heat ranges cooler from stock but we are also dumping the fine tip of the precious metals. platinum and iridium that have a fine tip are great at lasting long but under extreme temps any sharp point inside the combustion chamber can hold heat and glow and ignite the incoming air/fuel charge at a bad rod angle. These plugs come gapped at .025-.027 I open them up to .035 And I just make sure I have a really good tune setup so the plugs don't foul out.
     
  5. Loves302Chevy

    Loves302Chevy "One test is worth a thousand expert opinions."

    I (almost) can't believe how clean those plugs are. Well, that's modern engine controls for ya.
     
  6. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    I worked really hard for that tune. Days on the dyno to bring all fuel trim data in all cells to within -2% of their target. And it looks like I am about to start that process all over again.
     
  7. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    the heat annealing line on the plugs ground strap, and the porcelain showing almost pure white,
    indicates a bit more combustion heat than would be ideal and
    obviously your running lean at times, I would suggest checking the f/a ratio, and richening it up a bit near peak power,
    under boost & hard acceleration, you may require BOTH larger injectors or/and better fuel delivery volume,
    at the vary least , making that change, its going to help avoid potential problems /durability.
    I see plugs look like that when guys use injectors that are small enough in flow rate,
    that they are pushed past about 75%-80% pulse duration.

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculate-fuel-injector-size.1200/

    https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator

    Id be looking at larger flow rated injectors,
    and verify the fuel lines and fuel pump capacity will keep up,
    with the higher flow demand rate.
    keep in mind if you boost the supercharger with a change from 3.7-to-3.4,
    thats about a 9% increase in air flow so Id be doing the calcs on injector size,
    increase required,
    to compensate plus a safety cushion

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ne-running-a-turbo-s-on-e85.10990/#post-73557
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  8. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    Good advice for anyone chasing boost. We already have 60# injectors. Our problems here is not fuel delivery but rather supply. And we choose our pulley size by boost. I know it is a different type of math. But each .1" 'on the blower pulley on the average v8 is worth right around a pound of boost. This is and has been a most effective way of pulley sizing on the fly.
     
  9. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    autowiz I know you have to be aware of the related math,
    but a good many people, reading this thread , have never dealt with the subject


    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/calculate-fuel-injector-size.1200/

    https://fuelinjectorclinic.com/flow-calculator
    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/setting-up-your-fuel-system.211/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/anyone-running-a-turbo-s-on-e85.10990/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/supercharger-effective-compression.9078/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ruth-about-camshafts-and-turbochargers.14938/

    http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/turbo-maps-and-related-turbo-info.1215/
    [​IMG]
    Use these ratings to decide your return line sizing based upon fuel pump output:

    *
    Up to 45 GPH = 5/16" or -04 AN
    *
    Up to 90 GPH = 3/8" or -06 AN
    *
    Up to 250 GPH = 1/2" or -08 AN
    *
    Up to 450 GPH = 5/8" or -10 AN
    *
    Up to 900 GPH = 3/4"or -12 AN

    Use these figures as a fuel line sizing standard: if your feeding a carburetor with the typical 8-10 psi fuel pump feeding to the fuel pressure regulator, lots of guys just assume they can swap out the stock fuel pump to one that is rated at a significantly higher flow rate and that almost by itself will solve the potential fuel delivery issues

    * Up to 250 HP = 5/16" or -04 AN
    * Up to 500 HP = 3/8" or -06 AN
    * Up to 700 HP = 1/2" or -08 AN
    * Up to 1000 HP = 5/8" or -10 AN
    * Up to 1500 HP = 3/4" or -12 AN

    [​IMG]
    keep in mind that thats the minimum required, a fuel system has restrictions to flow rates like filters ,fitting and internal line flow restrictions requiring you to have a slightly higher actual supply volume and pressure
    just off the cuff, assessment, should require a bit of thought and doing a few calcs,
    if the current cars making about 540 hp at the rear wheels , that would convert to about 675 crank hp,
    540 rear wheel hp /= 80% of crank hp, thus 540 divided by 80 x 100-675 crank hp,
    (assuming you have about a 20% drive line loss rate)
    and,
    obviously we will need to know if your running race gas or E85
    now if you wanted a 9% boost in power plus a slight cushion,
    for safety
    that calculates out at 675 hp x 115%=776 crank hp

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
    Maniacmechanic1 likes this.
  10. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    It is important to point out that I exist on a different level than the world around me. Education aside, I have this:

    [​IMG]
    https://www.digitalcorvettes.com/forums/showthread.php?t=257986

    While I do have my well funded education behind me and I do love working things out on paper, Generally speaking when I log injector duty cycle peaking above 85 or 90% I will change the fuel injectors for larger. But when the pressure comes down before the injector duty cycle peaks, well that just makes its own statement.

    A lot of my comments made and procedures used involve this all powerful tool that so few have. Everybody without their own dyno will do so well to pay attention to Grumpy's Wisdom.
     
  11. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven solid fixture here in the forum

    Hello AutoWis... Am I reading this correct? I am changing my lower pulley from 6" to a 7" diameter on my new 385 stroker motor.
    That is a 1" difference. ( For people who are bad with math: 1" divided by .1 equals 10)
    Does this mean I can expect around a 10 pounds more in boost on a roots blower?

    By the way... NICE shop!
     
  12. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    NO
    6" x 3.147=18.9"
    7" x 3.147 =22" of circumference
    thats potentially about a 16% boost in belt speed
    but rpm is NOT directly related to supercharger volumetric efficiency
    centrifugal super chargers , paxton,novi etc, and turbos (exhaust driven not belt driven)
    [​IMG]

    are generally more effective at higher rpms
    roots type tend to loose efficiency as rpms go up past a certain point and blower design does effect results

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 20, 2019
  13. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven solid fixture here in the forum

    I'm a Dope! I forgot about PI
    Thanks Grumpy

    I think you meant 22" of circumference
     
  14. Grumpy

    Grumpy The Grumpy Grease Monkey mechanical engineer. Staff Member

    thank you
     
  15. Unforgiven

    Unforgiven solid fixture here in the forum

    I just finished reading link AutoWis posted above.
    I'm happy to see a man build on his dreams and see them materialize!
     
  16. T-Test

    T-Test solid fixture here in the forum

    All it takes is $$$$$$$$$$$$$. I don't need all that much HP any more, About 2 to get otta the bed and to the bathroom!!!
     
    Maniacmechanic1 likes this.
  17. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    This consideration is for the 3-4" pulley on the blower And .1" being worth 1 psi of boost is what the boys at Procharger, Vortech, Magnuson, And A&A all will tell us if we just pick up the phone and call their support number. It's where I got that from so long ago, now. We are a dealer for both Magnuson and A&A.

    And Thank You.
     
  18. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    I waited and worked a whole career as a flat rate mechanic and a drivability tech before I finally found my way to a performance shop. vetteXperts truly has been my own personal Field of Dreams. I get to have all the fun.

    https://www.superchargerforums.com/threads/lsx376-b8-procharger-in-a-2008-hummer-h2.7863/

    https://www.superchargerforums.com/threads/procharging-a-new-ram.3141/
     
  19. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    Back on the GTO. We need to change and rewire the fuel pump. For anybody wondering where the gas tank is on a 2006 GTO it is here:

    [​IMG]

    The fuel tank sits inside a plastic clamshell. Once removed from the vehicle we only need to remove the top half of the clamshell to access the pump..

    [​IMG]

    Inside of the tank we can see the metal feed line that leaves the pump. This metal line is going to flow 7 or 800hp worth of fuel..

    [​IMG]

    Believe it.
     
  20. AutoWiz

    AutoWiz Well-Known Member

    The pump we need to change is inside of here..

    [​IMG]

    With the bucket off the module we can see the fuel pump and the regulator. This pump has been in this tank since the procharger went in and the sock shows it, lol..

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    These factory fuel systems are so well thought out and so well planned that we just like trying to keep them as whole and in tact as possible for as long as possible. The bucket of the module acts as a sump and has a check valve to let fuel in but not out. The regulator dumps into the sump. So even with spirited driving around turns and with hard stops we stay in fuel even when the reserve light is on. This is totally lost with most butchered solutions and all before it. And in those conditions it is always a good idea to have a half tank or better depending on what kind of G's your car is capable of on each of it's axes when performance driving to ensure no lean spikes as we round them corners. Especially if we are playing with boost. Mounting the sump to the pump was something the automotive industry as a whole gravitated to by the end of the 90's. To have an open pump hanging in a sump mounted to a baffled gas tank is something all the manufacturers steered away from over 20 years ago, now. This should give us all pause for thought. Tanks still have baffling and sumps, but every pump today is mounted in a similar module for the above listed reasons. This has nothing to do with fuel efficiency or emission standards and everything to do with reliable fueling down to the last drop. Here is the pump itself removed from the module..

    [​IMG]

    This is a Walbro gss430 pump. This is a 255LPH pump we aquired from lingenfelter years ago. And here is the 340LPH DW300c pump that is going in..

    [​IMG]

    This is the strongest pump available that will fit into the factory pump module. Normally we go with the 450LPH turbine pumps but I can not make that happen here with this module assembly. What this means is once this 90k+ boosted LS2 finally gives up the ghost and we replace it with something better suited for the boost and go trying to make this car go as fast as his 900hp GT-R we MIGHT have to revisit fuel supply. But I digress, I am getting a bit ahead of myself here.
     

Share This Page