Question about KPA behavior across rpm range under WOT

Kane

Member
First off... I have been tuning for about 5 years. And in those years I have heard a lot of different opinions on a wide range of topics.

What I haven't heard, is what is supposed to happen with KPAs & what that look like as WOT occurs.

My data logs show that at key on, BRO will be at 99.

During PE mode (WOT), I will hit 99 KPAs (MAP) through 3k rpm and then the KPAs (MAP) will slowly drop to 93 / 94 by the time I am at 5400rpm (VAC is at 6 to 7 right at the shift point). It's a slow slide, to be clear- nothing abrupt.

Is that normal?
Should I expect the KPAs to drop somewhat as the car runs through WOT?

I would imagine it won't run forever at 100KPAs, but I haven't been able to talk with anyone that seems to be able to tell me what I am seeing and whether or not this is an issue with a restriction somewhere.

It's NOT a drag car- it's a street car. The car seems to run flawlessly- no flat spots, knock, etc. It'll scoot too- with a 0-60mph in the four and a half second range.

I am asking about the KPAs because if it can run better and I've done something wrong somewhere, I'd like to know (and know what I'm doing wrong).

  • OE TBI units bored out to 52mm running in parallel port fueling configuration
  • Renegade Intake (aftermarket cross ram)
  • 90lb injectors
  • Aeromotive Variable Fuel Pressure Regulator (23psi at idle / 28psi at WOT)
  • Davis Unified Ignition distributor, coil, and module
  • MSD Digital 6A
  • AFR Eliminator 180 heads w/ 65cc chambers (equipped with hyd. flat tappet springs)
  • Aluminum radiator and high flow water pump
  • Erson cam with .496” / .495” lift, 224/234 @ .05, 112 LS (rated at .465" + 1.6 rockers on the intake and .488" + 1.52 rockers on the exhaust)
  • Hooker full length headers
  • Dynamic EFI EBL Flash ECM with 8 position flash programmable memory, integrated wide band O2 sensor, and USB compatible
  • 1986 Corvette Electronic Spark Control module conversion
  • True duals, H-pipe, with Magnaflow mufflers (2.5" pipes)
  • 2k RPM stall converter
  • Built 700R4
  • 3.73 Yukon ring & pinion gears
My AFR is around 12.0 to 12.4 across WOT. A little rich? Perhaps. But the engine seems to like it and the plugs look healthy.

Sharing the VE table as it shows what things look like around where peak torque is hitting.

With 28PSI on 90lb injectors and a max of 80% on the duty cycle, I'm not going static. I'm pretty sure about that. And, the plugs would indicate things are healthy. But the KPA thing... a 6 to 7 drop... is this real or am I solving for an imaginary problem?

Also, whether I've added heads, upgraded the exhaust, added larger TBs, or increased lift, I've always seen this slow slide over the last 5 years. The only real constant... has been the intake manifold. I'd have thought that it would have gotten worse (or better) as I increased the lift or upgraded from OE cast iron heads, but I haven't seen any appreciable change in the KPA behavior during WOT even with all those changes.

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lets define terms first
admittedly I learned to tune without a computer,
old school,
changes in ignition advance curves,
using plenum vacuum,
fuel pressure,
changes in carb jetting,
power valves accelerator pump cams,
spark plug inspection
and exhaust gas temperatures
reading with a infrared thermometer

kph is that referring to air flow measured through the throttle body into the intake plenum?

We have several very knowledgeable members, on this web site,
in this area of tuning with a computer software, that can help you out!:D


https://www.unitconverters.net/speed/kph-to-meters-per-second.htm
 
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How's this?

https://www.engineeringtoolbox.com/vacuum-converter-d_460.html

Vacuum Pressure - Units Converter
Vacuum converting units - % vacuum - mm Mercury - psi - torr - micron - kPa
Sponsored Links
The table below can be used to convert between commonly used vacuum units:

%
Vacuum
Torr
(mm Mercury)
Micron psia,
(lb/in2
abs)
Inches
Mercury
Absolute
Inches
Mercury
Gauge
kPa
abs

0.0 760.0 760,000 14.7 29.92 0.00 101.4
1.3 750.0 750,000 14.5 29.5 0.42 99.9
1.9 735.6 735,600 14.2 28.9 1.02 97.7
7.9 700.0 700,000 13.5 27.6 2.32 93.5
21.0 600.0 600,000 11.6 23.6 6.32 79.9
34.0 500.0 500,000 9.7 19.7 10.22 66.7
47.0 400.0 400,000 7.7 15.7 14.22 53.2
50.0 380.0 380,000 7.3 15.0 14.92 50.8
61.0 300.0 300,000 5.8 11.8 18.12 40
74.0 200.0 200,000 3.9 7.85 22.07 26.6
87.0 100.0 100,000 1.93 3.94 25.98 13.3
88.0 90.0 90,000 1.74 3.54 26.38 12
89.5 80.0 80,000 1.55 3.15 26.77 10.7
90.8 70.0 70,000 1.35 2.76 27.16 9.3
92.1 60.0 60,000 1.16 2.36 27.56 8
93.0 51.7 51,700 1.00 2.03 27.89 6.9
93.5 50.0 50,000 0.97 1.97 27.95 6.7
94.8 40.0 40,000 0.77 1.57 28.35 5.3
96.1 30.0 30,000 0.58 1.18 28.74 4
96.6 25.4 25,400 0.49 1.00 28.92 3.4
97.4 20.0 20,000 0.39 0.785 29.14 2.7
98.7 10.0 10,000 0.193 0.394 29.53 1.3
99.0 7.6 7,600 0.147 0.299 29.62 1.0
99.87 1.0 1,000 0.01934 0.03937 29.88 0.13
99.90 0.75 750 0.0145 0.0295 29.89 0.1
99.99 0.10 100 0.00193 0.00394 29.916 0.013
99.999 0.01 10 0.000193 0.000394 29.9196 0.0013
100 0.00 0 0 0 29.92 0
  • 1 psi (lb/in2) = 6,894.8 Pa (N/m2) = 6.895x10-3 N/mm2 = 6.895x10-2 bar
Convert from % Vacuum to Unit of Pressure
The % of vacuum is a relative value where pressure at normal or standard atmosphere is the base value.

pv% = 100% - (pv / patm) 100% (1)

where

pv% = vacuum (%)

pv = absolute pressure (psia, kPa, bar ..)

patm = absolute presure at normal or standard conditions (psia, kPa, bar ..)

Example - Pressure in kPa and % Vacuum
The vacuum with absolute pressure 4 kPa and standard pressure 101.4 kPa can be calculated as

pv% = 100% - ((4 kPa) / (101.4 kPa)) 100%

= 96.1 %

Example - Pressure in kPa and % Vacuum
The vacuum with absolute pressure 0.1 bar and standard pressure 1 bar can be calculated as

pv% = 100% - ((0.1 bar) / (1 bar)) 100%

= 90 %

Vacuum Ranges
Pressure
(Pa)

Low vacuum 1x105 to 3x103
Medium vacuum 3x103 to 1x10-1
High vacuum 1x10-1 to 1x10-7
Ultra high vacuum 1x10-7 to 1x10-10
Extremely high vacuum 1x10-10
Perfect vacuum 0
  • Outer space 1x10-4 to < 3x10-15
 
It's perhaps a loss of just a little shy of 2" of mercury

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if your WOT plenum is close to 2" you could use a slightly less restrictive throttle body,
but your close to ideal
and your F/A ratio being in the 12.0-12.4 range having to be a bit rich is very common as not all cylinders are going to get an equal f/a ratio,
so having to run a bit richer on average to prevent the leaner cylinders from leaning out with a common plenum design intakes is not un-common.
 
It's perhaps a loss of just a little shy of 2" of mercury
Put a Vacuum gauge connected to the intake manifold. If no open ports use the Power brake booster.
Remember no power brakes so you have to step on the brakes harder to stop.
Go out on a country 2-lane black top road & floor it from a stop. Do a 1/4 mile run.
Bang through the gears to redline or your normal shift points.
Note what the lowest vacuum readings are.
Ideal is 0 inches WOT pulling real hard in 3rd direct drive in the 700R4.
1-2 inches OK.
May see 3-4 inches yet. Restriction is likely exhaust or TBI crossfire wants more air.
Not drag racing so how important is Hp to You ?

Open exhaust best.
Zero backpressure. Real Loud too.
 
When they brought out the Renegade original it was marketed in the Vette world as a drag race intake.
Claims of 11.0 ET with it in 1/4 mile.
Truth was soon found out 13.5 ET or higher typical.
 
yeah, good point often over looked, measure the exhaust collector back pressure, is a very common source of restriction
that robs the engine efficiency you ideally will have close to zero back pressure
30 hp-50 hp gains from long tube tuned headers with near zero back-pressure vs a stock exhaust are very common.
zero back-pressure and properly matched cam timing ,
and headers designed for max efficiency with a known displacement,
compression and rpm range,
can enhance cylinder scavenging efficiency a great deal

volumetric.gif

exhaustpressure.jpg

EXFLOWZ4.jpg

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...-between-shorty-and-full-length-headers.1303/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/is-backpressure-hurting-your-combo.495/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/building-custom-headers.961/
 
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if your WOT plenum is close to 2" you could use a slightly less restrictive throttle body,
but your close to ideal
and your F/A ratio being in the 12.0-12.4 range having to be a bit rich is very common as not all cylinders are going to get an equal f/a ratio,
so having to run a bit richer on average to prevent the leaner cylinders from leaning out with a common plenum design intakes is not un-common.


Thanks Grumpy!

Yeah, the slightly rich AFR was intentional for the reasons you point out about the common plenum. I've heard about unequal distribution before and went a bit rich, confirming with reading the plugs and documenting the AFR.

I guess I could go one step larger on the TBs and punch them out to 2.125" (54mm)... but if the intake itself is somehow the issue- or the exhaust - bigger TBs won't help.
 
the more effective the exhaust scavenging is on the engine,
the less restrictive the intake will appear to be too the engines cylinder fill and power curve.
I would be far more concerned with maximizing the header and exhaust system scavenging, efficiency,
with low restriction exhaust and perhaps a cam change,or rocker ratio change,
than in worrying about the throttle body size ,or intake restricting flow.
 
When they brought out the Renegade original it was marketed in the Vette world as a drag race intake.
Claims of 11.0 ET with it in 1/4 mile.
Truth was soon found out 13.5 ET or higher typical.

No doubt!

Yeah there was a CRAZY amount of wishful thinking about that intake. People thought it was magically going to address all the issues of CFI. From the intake. By itself. LOL

Attached is a screenshot of the car's 0-60mph running pig rich before I got the VE table nailed down from last summer after the swap to AFR 180 heads.

Even then, the benefits of the Renegade over OEM ported are quite telling as I doubt I'd get close to those numbers without the Renegade and only a ported OE intake.

Oh- and that signal was going crazy from the HEI unit over 4,800!

The RPM was NOT actually jumping around like that, but the SIGNAL from the module was getting serious interference. Running the MSD 6A cleaned the signal up among other things.

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yeah, having much better cylinder heads and a low restriction exhaust and a cam matching the higher flow potential,
of the aftermarket parts will greatly add too the better intake flow, potential.
you do have other intake options
MockUpFuelFrontWEB.jpg

the basic cross ram intake design has a lot going for it, its very compact and efficient.
where the chevy crossfire intake design fails is the port size runner length and the cylinder heads were all designed to maximize off idle torque with almost no concern for power potential once the rpm range exceeded 4000 rpm,
(exactly where the typical offanhauser cross ram intake just starts to shine in its power curve, with its much larger and more efficient intake design)
crossfire , (notice the much smaller runner size , less than 1/2 the cross sectional volume of the offy)
manifold7.jpg


OFFANHAUSER BELOW
ofy11.jpg

rencr.png

below the offy intake (below UPPER, the CROSSFIRE with its MUCH SMALLER RUNNERS LOWER)
crossports.jpg


http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/the-cross-ram-intake.623/#post-53061

If you intend to build a SBC with a corvette cross fire engine as a starting point,
we certainly have a good deal of related info you can use.
we can sure help you make a lot fewer mistakes and help select good matched parts.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...ntake-for-cross-fires.2796/page-40#post-77473

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/got-a-cross-fire-corvette.640/#post-5467

https://www.corvettemods.com/C3-C4-...ke-Manifold--Crossfire-Injection_p_14318.html

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ported-crossfire-383.10240/#post-41065

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/got-a-cross-fire-corvette.640/#post-25767

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/got-a-cross-fire-corvette.640/#post-50502

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/ported-crossfire-383.10240/#post-41000

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/renegade-intake-for-cross-fires.2796/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/1984-corvette-questions.4918/#post-13583

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/1984-crossfire-vette-won-t-run-right.10096/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/bits-of-crossfire-info.1148/#post-2333

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-few-cross-fire-tips.303/#post-986
 
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