renegade intake? for cross fires

 
Yay more to read... :D

I noticed that summit has a 90 day return/exchange policy, so i started that ball rolling for the better camshaft you pointed out...

So i was planning on a 64cc combustion chamber on those edlebrock e street heads, sounds like i might be better with the 70x cc heads?
 
I really appreciate the help, and I'm trying to make sense of it all as time allows, however I'm still unclear on my head selection.

Noting that I'm changing to the cam you recommended: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-114132

and from what I have read so far I'll end up with a 10.1:1 CR using the 64cc chamber, if I go with the 70 I'm right in the ballpark of 9.5:1
(Noting that edlebrock e-street heads come in either 64cc and 70cc)

I pretty much played with the online compression calculators until I got the OEM compression rating of 9:1, and then changed the combustion chamber size.

The calculator also showed me a higher CR with the 64cc than I was quoted earlier on of 10.5:1, so it might be closer...

Doing some reading I'm getting info saying that I'll be fine with the higher CR, and then other info suggesting I won't be...

Sounds like I might be safer sticking with the 70cc chamber?
 
the 70cc heads and 9.5:1 may be the better choice in this case
well I'm glad see your researching what you need to know, to match the application and combo you built, so few people read the links and follow the proven info posted ,
and obviously its paying off in a high torque engine combo like we have discussed during the planing and build process.
check your fuel pressure remains consistent, the low restriction 3" exhaust with the dual (X) pipe's and high flow mufflers allow the cam and intake to flow far better, than they could with the stock exhaust.
most people fail to realize how well a properly matched combo of parts will run, and so few people reading the threads and links,
bother to do the research or follow proven suggestions,
and I find many guys want a more radical cam that the combo really needs to function correctly, or are dead set on using miss matched components!
Id also point out that cam timing matched to the exhaust scavenging has a huge effect on potential intake flow rates
exhaustpressure.jpg

EXFLOWZ4.jpg

pistonposition2a.jpg

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/is-backpressure-hurting-your-combo.495/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/x-or-h-pipe.1503/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-well-designed-c4-exhaust.786/#post-46807

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...sfire-vette-won-t-run-right.10096/#post-39710
 
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Well i got the intake, heads, oil pan, timing cover, and rack and pinion pulled this weekend...

looking at the factory intake, there is a lot of material keeping those ports small!
I'm really glad I went for a new intake vs porting.

I also sucked down some seafoam into the intake prior to taking everything apart, partly I wanted to see the stuff in action...

Pretty neat, I have a ton of carbon build up and it's flaking off of the pistons. I also got a bunch of carbon flaking when the cylinder heads came off, I'll hit it with a vacuum before I rotate the engine.

The area under the intake was very clean, only a few small spots of buildup.
Possible the Mobil 1 I have been running since I bought the car, also a few seafoam assisted oil changes. however the oil pan had a little bit more sludge...

I was very happy to see the condition of the cylinders, smooth and no noticeable ridge at the top, the engine has about 112k original miles.
The previous owner also used some of that radiator stop leak crap at one point, I think it was due to the water pump since it had clearly been changed with a standard cast iron with some fresh rust coloring...

I had flushed the cooling system out and I was pretty curious to see what the head gasket and cylinder head looked like, I was very pleased to see that nothing was plugged.

The timing chain had some slop, it could use a replacement.
The distributor was also not as bad as I expected, I'll order some new electronics and a new gear.

And if all goes well, summit should have my new cam by this next weekend, and I'll order the new cylinder heads right after Halloween.

Also my valve covers lost their little corvette logos so I really could care less about them, and with the polished intake manifold I'm going to go for a pretty set of valve covers. So I'll sacrifice the OEM's for the sake of valve lash adjustment.

And I'll also note that I have an upgraded fuel pump from a newer vette. and the upgraded pump required it's own ground... :)
The regulator appeared to of been modified already as well, I had no issues setting the fuel pressure.

And while taking everything apart I had a stuck fuel line nut, and I ended up twisting the metal line trying while it untwisted fine I don't trust it now... so I get to take a crash course in making a new line...
I have never done that before, so it should be interesting :)

and while thinking about the fuel line I started thinking about fluid coolers...
I plan on routing a transmission and power steering cooler so it sit's in front of the ac condenser.
Also an 84 has a single radiator fan, I have a secondary one setup as a pusher, I want to redo the way I have it mounted...

One issue is that area in front of the condenser is super flimsy, no clear way to mount anything there, I started toying with the idea of making a little frame out of aluminum stock, and then using that to mount the coolers...
 
Gibbles said:
I pretty much played with the online compression calculators until I got the OEM compression rating of 9:1, and then changed the combustion chamber size.
Click to expand...
Why can't you use the actual numbers, then you will know FOR SURE the SCR/DCR.

There are a couple of numbers that are so small they can be ignored and just use the numbers
that are already in the calculator. The numbers that can be ignored are (9) Top Ring Height
and (10) Ring Land to Cyl Bore Clearance. The (7) Gasket Diameter can be = Bore + .050".

Since you know what camshaft you are using, you also know what the IVC (Intake Valve Closing)
number in degrees is and be sure and use SEAT timing NOT timing @ 0.050. The Excel
spreadsheet also includes a calculator for the IVC if the manufacture doesn't give it to you directly.

Below is what the calculator looks like, ignore the arrows, I used this graphic in another post.

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...comp-ratio-cranking-pressure-calculator.4458/

CrankingPressureExample01.JPG


Please post the table with numbers if you do the calculations!


.
 
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I filled out the form as much as I could, I still have to measure the bore ect, however my head has a metal headgasket, and everything except for the intake manifold is untouched.
I know the intake manifold was re-sealed back in the 90's per my Carfax, and I can see were they used black rtv to seal the area between the two heads under the intake.

What I was able to find online suggests the metal headgasket should be 0.020, and the edlebrock one I have is 0.039
leaving most of the fields alone I come up with a factory static compression of 9.02, with 64cc heads and a thicker head gasket it comes up to 9.80, and with the 70cc heads I'm getting 9.19.
For the intake valve closing angle I'm trying to understand the "seat to seat timing and not the 0.050" lift timing...

Also I'm very much enjoying your Dart SHP thread, still working my way through it however I love going through and finishing, rounding off, ect.
It's something I very much enjoy with firearms, and it's answering a lot of questions I had in regards to engines. :)
 
Can you post the table with numbers so we can see what assumptions you have made? Size
the Excel window so it just includes all the numbers, hold down the "ALT" key and then tap
the "PrtScn" key. Now place the cursor where you want the table and just paste directly into
your post.

In this concert of numbers you have to make the quench distance happy also. It should be
.040 to .048 (with steel rods)and the closer to the minimum the better. What is your deck
height, that is the distance from the piston to the top of the block at TDC? Add the compressed
gasket thickness to the deck height and you have the quench distance.

Quench = Deck Hgt + Head Gasket Thickness

Quench01.jpg

The seat to seat timing is the same as "Advertised Duration", they like to talk about the biggest
number they can.

Glad to hear you are enjoying my build thread, that's why I put so much time into it. What page
are you on now?
 
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yes we tried to go into details on the threads links and sub linked info, allowing you to branch out and research, if you wanted to but easily return to the main trunk thread,
yet keep the main thread basically following a recognizable course toward its originally intended destination.
remember that t-bucket engines built for brisk street performance and massive instantly available torque and durability , and dependability and Rick did an EXCELLENT JOB!
about 80% of the guys I work with, make me crazy, I feel like I'm herding cats, they keep running off mentally of financially in random directions and randomly purchasing parts they got someplace on a deal at a yard sale they insist on using,without a clue as to how or why they are used or match,the intended application or goal , Rick stayed focused ,its not intended to be a race engine,
if that were the goal, the heads, intake, cam, lifters and headers, selected, and the matched drive train and gearing would all be of a mandated different design
now I'm sure Rick will confirm if he holds the accelerator firmly on the floor for 15 seconds or so he can get a speeding ticket with little effort.
the engine has low 11 second -high 10 second potential in. the T-bucket,in its current config and its easily tweaked for a bit more
 
The cylinder cannot begin to build pressure until the intake valve closes, so in the calculator
you have to use the advertised duration of 270°/276° duration for the intake valve. When
you install a camshaft dot-to-dot, that is actually 4° advanced in most cases. So this is where
you have another choice to install the camshaft straight up or 0°, which can be used to adjust
the DCR slightly.

upload_2015-10-28_10-24-39.png

Try calculating your CR with the new number for IVC of 61° and 65°. Most SBC have a .025
inch Deck Height from the factory, but that's a rough number that varies from one block to
another. But until you can actually measure, this number would be better than .013. UNLESS
you did measure the deck height???

Some people like to set the deck at zero, then their gasket is the quench distance. Gaskets in
the .035 to .050 are easier to come by.

Let the static CR (SCR) fall where it may, the dynamic CR (DCR) you want in the area of
8.0 to 8.25 when running 91 octane gasoline. Grumpy has a chart that will cover the
DCR vs Octane I'm sure he can post.

You really need to settle on ALL YOUR PARTS before buying anything more. You need
a plan for the entire engine before proceeding any further. It sure would help us help
you if you could post a table with all your parts listed with PN and descriptions. I know
that's a lot of work, but don't you think it would be worth it in the long run.

Mine list looked like this ....

upload_2015-10-28_10-43-41.png
 
Grumpy are you saying in reality that the deck height for a stock SBC is normally .010 inches, instead of the .025" called for by spec???
 
I have not measured deck height, and I have no idea on the piston volume
Noida on the Atmospheric pressure as of yet

As of right now I'm just doing a top end upgrade as my bottom end is in good shape, however I'm ordering some tools to check the bore and I have a straight edge to check the deck.

I can make up an excel file, however so far I'm keeping it listed in a txt file...

Part list so far... (for the sake of reference links included)

Intake = renegade crossfire: ems-msren-100p http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-msren-100p
Intake bolts = ARP 12pt: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-2101
Camshaft = : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-114132
Camshaft lock plate: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99168-1
Head gasket = Edlebrock thickness 0.039: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7310
Timing chain = Compcams magnum double roller: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2100
Head bolt set = ARP 12pt: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3701
harmonic balancer = Summit Pro Street 6.750in: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-161350
harmonic balancer bolt = ARP 12pt: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-2501

things still in the air...

I'm strongly leaning towards these for rocker arms
Scorpion 1.65 ratio, it should give me real close to .500 lift: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1008
However the Compcams Gold are a possibility for an extra $100, I'm currently researching for the selling point for the difference in the $100
Compcams Gold 1.65 ratio: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-19003-16

Valve covers = Edlebrock Signature series: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-4449
(I'm going to cut up my oem covers for adjustments and to do a little clearance testing)

Heads: Strongly looking at the edlebrock e-street line (max recommended lift is about .500)
70cc pn 5073: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-5073/
64cc pn 5089: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5089/

For another $400 +/- I can get the RPM series, however for this I'm not going crazy with the lift, and the RPM head comes with much stronger springs, and it would exceed the camshaft recommended.

Pushrods: pending until I can check the length
Compcams Master Magnum Checking Pushrods: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7901-1
Proform Pushrod Length checkers: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66789

And the new numbers
upload_2015-10-28_11-16-28.png
 
and as for the plan = make go fast! :)

but seriously, this information has been very hard to come by. and this forum has been the best resource.
I have been doing a bit to much of pretending to work (like right now), at least excel looks like I'm working so that's a plus... :cool:

Much of my plan so far was a copy paste from threads... first attempt requires some bumps right? :)

Next attempt might be a bit more aggressive, either with this car or another later.
 
the only way youll get valid info is through repeatedly taken and accurate measurements ,you never assume a damn thing, because doing that, well it has an annoying habit of always coming back eventually too bite you in your ass
if you do want to stroke that engine from a 350,
to a 383 because the new rotating assembly will require new dished pistons
once you get the new static compression we can select the correct matching cam,
increased displacement from 350 to 383 even if everything else were to stay nearly,
identical, generally results in a 40 -50 ft lb over most of the rpm range and 40-50 hp boost

guide too re-installing the intake manifold /distributor

Guy
garage.grumpysperformance.com
ideally you'll want to find a 383 sbc with the 350 main journal diameter to fit the 350 block, rotating assembly with a dished pistons
(forged is ideal but hyper-eutectic would work)
and internally balanced rotating assembly with 7/16" rod bolts,
5.7" connecting rods ,( cast steel crank would work,
but obviously forged steel is even better, in that its significantly stronger and more durable)
that rotating assembly should have about 9.5:1 static compression
http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/precision-measuring-tools.1390/#post-52469
 
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