renegade intake? for cross fires

[Gibbles]

Also the car is crazy fast now, I can't believe how quick I can get over 100mph...

And all of those bins should be pretty much the same, that is other than the Spark Advance tables...
To move the spark tables or any other table like the fueling... just select the top row, copy, then select the same top row in the file you want to edit and paste.
(took me a few tries to figure that out originally)


I have my car running very smoothly, and I have an air intake temp sensor, and a heated O2 sensor.

Idles pretty solid, I also have Idle SA selected, it forces a set timing when idling and fixed any bouncing of the idle I was having.

 

[Gibbles]

Also anyone looking to use these, note I do have 80lb injectors, and my engine can really breath, dual x-pipes, flowmaster 40's, headers, and 3in exhaust system
The VE table may be very off from what your car needs...

 

[Grumpy]

well I'm glad see your researching what you need to know, to match the application and combo you built, so few people read the links and follow the proven info posted ,
and obviously its paying off in a high torque engine combo like we have discussed during the planing and build process.
check your fuel pressure remains consistent, the low restriction 3" exhaust with the dual (X) pipe's and high flow mufflers allow the cam and intake to flow far better, than they could with the stock exhaust.
most people fail to realize how well a properly matched combo of parts will run, and so few people reading the threads and links,
bother to do the research or follow proven suggestions,
and I find many guys want a more radical cam that the combo really needs to function correctly, or are dead set on using miss matched components!
Id also point out that cam timing matched to the exhaust scavenging has a huge effect on potential intake flow rates

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/is-backpressure-hurting-your-combo.495/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/x-or-h-pipe.1503/

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/a-well-designed-c4-exhaust.786/#post-46807

http://garage.grumpysperformance.co...sfire-vette-won-t-run-right.10096/#post-39710

 

[Strictly Attitude]

Awesome can you post a graph version of your timing tables with the actual numbers in the table? Also have you thought about just having it put on a chassis dyno and getting you Mass Brake Torque timing numbers there? That is ideal way of doing it and leaving nothing on the tables and shouldn't take much in terms of cost if your tune is pretty close to begin with.

 

[Gibbles]

You can load up the bin files in tuner pro, just needs the ebl flash xdf file.

and here is my attempt to post the graph and numbers...
Tried excel, failed.
Direct attach is a no-go, to much company tagging in documents I create on my work machine...

Snip of the 86 vette Aluminum head table




Direct paste of the numbers...

20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04
20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04 20.04
27.07 27.07 27.07 27.07 27.07 24.61 22.85 22.85 22.15 20.74 20.74 20.74
28.13 28.13 28.13 28.13 28.13 25.66 22.85 22.85 22.85 20.74 20.74 20.74
29.88 29.88 29.88 29.88 29.88 27.42 24.61 24.61 24.61 21.09 21.09 21.09
30.94 30.94 30.94 30.94 30.94 28.48 25.66 25.66 25.66 22.85 22.85 22.85
35.86 35.86 35.51 34.45 33.75 33.05 31.99 30.94 27.07 24.61 24.61 24.61
37.27 37.27 36.91 35.86 35.16 34.45 32.70 31.99 28.48 25.66 25.66 25.66
38.32 38.32 37.97 36.56 35.86 34.80 33.40 32.70 29.88 26.37 26.37 26.37
39.38 39.38 39.02 36.91 35.86 35.86 34.45 33.05 30.94 27.42 27.42 27.42
40.78 40.78 40.08 37.97 36.91 35.86 35.16 34.10 32.34 28.48 28.48 28.48
42.19 42.19 40.78 40.43 37.97 37.97 35.16 34.10 33.05 29.88 29.88 29.88
47.11 47.11 43.95 42.89 37.97 37.97 35.16 34.10 33.05 29.88 29.88 29.88
47.11 47.11 45.35 45.35 40.08 37.97 35.51 34.10 33.05 29.88 29.88 29.88
47.11 47.11 45.35 45.35 45.35 41.13 37.27 34.10 33.05 29.88 29.88 29.88
47.11 47.11 45.35 45.35 45.35 41.13 37.27 37.27 33.05 30.59 30.59 30.59
47.11 47.11 45.35 45.35 45.35 41.13 37.27 37.27 33.05 32.34 32.34 32.34


This is what I did with the SA extended table, it may be a source of my 4800 RPM + issues...




Direct paste of the numbers...

47.11 47.11 47.11 47.11 45.00 43.59 42.89 42.54 41.84 38.67 37.97 37.27
47.46 47.11 47.11 47.11 45.00 43.59 42.89 42.54 41.84 39.38 37.97 37.27
47.46 47.11 47.11 47.11 45.00 43.59 42.89 42.54 41.84 39.38 37.97 37.27
47.46 47.11 47.11 47.11 45.00 43.59 42.89 42.54 41.84 39.38 37.97 37.27
47.46 47.11 47.11 47.11 45.00 43.59 42.89 42.54 41.84 39.38 37.97 37.62

 

[Gibbles]

And I do want to have this thing put on a dyno once I have it ironed out, or at least really close to the final.

I can't wait to see what it can do

 

[Gibbles]

And Grumpy,

That was one thing I have been curious about, for my second x-pipe, does the spacing from the first one matter, and if so how to decide how far back or how close to make it to the first one...

Also I love the way the car sounds with the dual x-pipe.

Lower RPM cruising it has a nice healthy rumble, very pleasing.

When I get on the pedal the tone changes and it has what I think is the proper sound for a corvette.

Also now that it's warming up, I have driven a bit with the windows down, the sound is like music!

 

[Gibbles]

Here are the EBL definition files, as my timing table paste is not workable in an easy manner...

 

[Gibbles]

Here we go, this works!

Attached xlsx file
86 aluminum head SA!

 

[Grumpy]

spacing, of the second (X) cross over in a dual (X) 3" exhaust, is generally not extremely critical,
but I generally try hard to get it in the 18"-to-22" range as I found that seems to work best,
obviously under the car clearance effects your options

http://garage.grumpysperformance.com/index.php?threads/x-or-h-pipe.1503/

DUAL X-PIPES TEND TO RESULT IN MORE EFFECTIVE CYLINDER SCAVENGING,BY BLENDING EXHAUST PULSE DURATION, AND A BROADER TORQUE CURVE AND MELLOWER EXHAUST TONE

for those guys who won,t bother too read back through the thread

Part list so far... (for the sake of reference links included)

Intake = renegade crossfire: ems-msren-100p http://www.summitracing.com/parts/ems-msren-100p
Intake bolts = ARP 12pt: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-2101
Camshaft = : http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-114132
Camshaft lock plate: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/crn-99168-1
Head gasket = Edlebrock thickness 0.039: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-7310
Timing chain = Compcams magnum double roller: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-2100
Head bolt set = ARP 12pt: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-3701
harmonic balancer = Summit Pro Street 6.750in: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/sum-161350
harmonic balancer bolt = ARP 12pt: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/arp-134-2501

things still in the air...

I'm strongly leaning towards these for rocker arms
Scorpion 1.65 ratio, it should give me real close to .500 lift: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/scc-scp1008
However the Compcams Gold are a possibility for an extra $100, I'm currently researching for the selling point for the difference in the $100
Compcams Gold 1.65 ratio: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-19003-16

Valve covers = Edlebrock Signature series: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-4449
(I'm going to cut up my oem covers for adjustments and to do a little clearance testing)

Heads: Strongly looking at the edlebrock e-street line (max recommended lift is about .500)
70cc pn 5073: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/EDL-5073/
64cc pn 5089: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/edl-5089/

For another $400 +/- I can get the RPM series, however for this I'm not going crazy with the lift, and the RPM head comes with much stronger springs, and it would exceed the camshaft recommended.

Pushrods: pending until I can check the length
Compcams Master Magnum Checking Pushrods: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/cca-7901-1
Proform Pushrod Length checkers: http://www.summitracing.com/parts/pro-66789

 

[Gibbles]

thanks,

That's pretty close to what I did in the last image.

And it really mellows out right at 3k rpm, add any load and it really adds an almost F1 sound to the exhaust system.

(That's what my coworker said today when I took him for a ride, F1 sounding)

 

[Gibbles]

Also to clarify my exhaust system following the above re-paste of the build sheet.

I have Melrose headers with their full exhaust system, I had Melrose send me a second x-pipe for something around $120.

I found that to be a fair price after shopping around, that and getting it from the same supplier ensures the fitment between the two is very close.

From there I added two flowmaster FM40's, 3in inlet, and dual 2.5in outlet.

From there I took several mandrel 3in bends, and one U bend to get the exhaust system right, can't tell you the angles, but I used the original system as my template...
I have lots of left overs...

 

[Grumpy]

keep in mind that a properly designed exhaust system and headers goes a very long way towards increasing the efficiency of the intake manifold and head flow , and remember that the better the heads and the more effective the exhaust scavenging the less duration the cam used will require!

for those guys who are less than familiar with math,or exhaust physics,
heres a picture of the MELROSE EXHAUST, adding a second (X) will reduce the noise, mellow the tone and increase the exhaust scavenging efficiency, I've generally found that placing the second (X) center as close too about 18"-22" behind the first one works rather well, of course clearances may prevent that location.

they might be thinking why did he go from a 3" exhaust pipe entering the muffler ,and route
too dual 2.5" pipes exiting the mufflers .
But remember the exhaust pulse's enter the exhaust header primary pipes ever 90 degrees of engine rotation, these pulsed masses of exhaust gases,
travel rapidly to the header collector then exit, and the gases enter the 3" exhaust pipe with approximately 7 square inch area cross section on each side of the cars the exhaust pipes,
they travel to the first (X) where the mass splits into a dual exhaust with each side having that approximately 7 square inch area cross section on the exhaust pipes,
each 3" exhaust sides flow mass has been reduced to half its original volume but now flows at a reduced speed to the second (X) where the pulse energy , now equalized and reduced now collides
this further equalized the flow as it temporarily recombines and re-splits, this further stabilized the pulse into a more consistent flow, the sound energy has been partly eliminated as the two (X) pipe intersections allow both sides of the exhaust to blend and lower the effective speed and restriction to flow.
now the mass of gas that was blended twice and has lost much of its heat, pressure and energy exits, that approximately 7 square inch area cross section on the exhaust pipes, into the muffler where its further cooled, slowed as it expands and can further reduce its speed and pressure as its now exiting a dual 4.9 square inch or about 9.8 square inches

 

[dawsonc]

I'm curious if the Renegade x-fire is better than the X-Ram. I had one on my car and it worked really good.

 

[Grumpy]

theres no comparing the flow between the two totally different designs
the renegade has a common plenum and reasonably strait shot at the intake ports

http://www.cranescorvette.com/x-ram-1982-84.htm

the X-ram is a 4 barrel carb intake with a second adapter plenum mounted on top
which results in a bit less consistent fuel/air mix.
now theres at least some increase in air flow due to the larger ports on the modified 4 barrel intake, but the renegade is a slightly better design

 

[Gibbles]

I did a bunch more research and found the SA latency i had set was way off.

It was adding a bunch of timing that caused issues when running some other timing tables.

I did some google image searches of the 89 vette heads, and the chambers looked a bit like the edlebrock heads, so running the different SA latency settings i gave the 89 timing table another try.

This time around it's much better!!

So I'm sticking with that timing table for now.

I also read that i need to do some VE learns with closed loop disabled.

So running the wideband O2 i took the car for a nice long drive.

Right as i got nearly to the top of the mountain i started thinking i better record this...

It was 70f at home, at the top of the mountain there is still lots of snow.

This road dumped me out in Wyoming about 30 or 40min after i stopped recording...

 

[Gibbles]

I also had EBL WUD tell me I'm running out of fueling at 4000rpm...

So i ordered a bunch of AN fittings to see if i can figure this out.
Still unsure what adapters and fittings i need, but i ordered a bunch for some trial and error...

 

[Gibbles]

Also here is the SA Latency setting for the Corvette large cap distributor.

I also read that it's important to have the correct spark module...
The DUI module that i have seems to like these settings...

AXCN/ANHT (Large Cap/HEI)
-------------
RPM usec
800 122
1200 168
1600 183
2000 198
2400 259
2800 229
3200 198
3600 198
4000 198
4400 214
4800 214
5200 214
5600 214
6000 214

 

[Renegade]

Phewf. That was a long read.

I have had an 84 vette for a few years now and have been slowly accumulating parts for a very similar rebuild to what you put together. The first purchase was the Renegade intake for a very cheap price on ebay (I got lucky). I then followed with a set of 1.6 rr's, 90lb injectors, and gasket sets for the throttle bodies/injectors. I have been holding off on purchasing the heads/cam/exhaust because, like you, I wanted to fully understand how to match these components to my end goal (powerband, streetability ...etc). The few pages on SCR and DCR and the tables you and Grumpy provided really put things in perspective and helped me understand how everything harmonized around the cam specs.

Like other CFI owners I have scowered the interwebs looking for detailed explanations for parts and rebuild instructions. This was very well detailed. Thank you.

I too am sad that I missed the opportunity to work with/purchase parts from DCS prior to them closing shop. It seems like they really understood all of the idiosyncrasies of the CFI system. Which raises my first question to you, Gibbles. Did you do anything with your throttle bodies pertaining to boring or did you ever apply a bushing service to the throttle plates? From everything that I have read on other forums, your increased fuel flow from the injectors and increased flow through the intake and heads may warrant boring the throttle bodies. I have also heard the bushing service really improves throttle response.

Let me know at your leisure. I am so glad I was able to find this thread.

Best,

Pete

 

[Grumpy]

Yes I've constantly tried to point out the fact that all the components in any engine, and correctly matching the drive train combos gearing, exhaust flow, intake and cam timing along with the fuel/air ratio and ignition advance curve must match the engines displacement and compression ratio, and the intended rpm and intended operational power range.
so many guy fail to understand that concept and as a result install mis-matched components that significantly restrict the power curve and the effective rpm range.
remember its that available torque at a instantly available rpm and how effectively you can access that torque that will allow you to move the car briskly,
the most common mistakes are not selecting the better available , and high flow rate heads that match the engines displacement and intended rpm range and the cam timing, and over camming the engine or not gearing or using the correct stall speed to match the application, is a sure route to reducing the potential performance, potential.


When your planing to build a performance car, I've found it helps,
you see progress being made and prevents you from getting discouraged as easily,
if you work on accumulating components for each of the 8 basic sub assemblies,
and checking off your list those components and grouping those on a separate shelf,
as doing so tends to allow you to see more consistent progress,
being made, and you get a feeling your getting someplace.

(1) BLOCK (bearings, freeze plugs main caps and machine work)

(2) ROTATING ASSEMBLY (crank, rods pistons, rings, flywheel,damper etc.)

(3) CYLINDER HEADS and VALVE TRAIN ( valves, valve springs, cam, timing gears, rockers, valve guides, push-rods lifters . etc.)

(4)INDUCTION(manifold, throttle body, sensors, carbs, supercharger, injection , fuel pump, fuel pressure regulator injectors etc.)

(5) DRIVE TRAIN ASSEMBLY COMPONENTS(clutch, stall converter, transmission ETC.)

(6) ignition system (distributor,coils, ignition wires, magneto etc.)

(7) LUBE SYSTEM (oil pan, oil pump, windage tray,oil cooler, ETC.)
these threads and links and sub-links might help

(8) EXHAUST (headers and exhaust system, mufflers ETC.)